World of Warcraft 2.1 patch notes

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Smilin
100 percent health to 0 percent health with not even a split second opening to get out of it? Equally leveled and geared?

You show me that and I'll be the first to line up and gripe to blizzard. I don't think that would be remotely fair and would ruin the game for people.

The DPS ones that sit in Bezerker Stance you really can't, since Berzerker Rage can be activated while you're stunned. You can Blind or Gouge them to get away, but that breaks on damage. Improved Overpower sort of negates Evasion to some extent...

Actually, Zerk Rage doesn't break "stuns", but I'm being picky about definitions here, using Blizzards definitions.
It breaks disorienting effects, gouge and sap for example.

So CS and KS will work fine, as will blind and crap like that, Gogue won't, unless the warrior is in Battle/Def stance(and didn't use Zerk Rage beforehand).

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: CKentRogues started the game overpowered, few would argue that. They debatably needed to be looked at for a few months prior to their 1.12 review, but if anything that buff brought them right back into overpowered land, and the TBC mitigation nerf, AP itemization buff and their higher level abilities (notably CloS) have propelled them to the top of the PvP food chain again.

To me that would mean Rogues would be my favorite class to fight. After all the reason to PvP is for the challenge, right? Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, PvP in MMORPG is like the Special Olympics.

Sheesh, rogues are not the end all. Its all about who is the better player and who has the better situation at the time the conflict starts. Plus some builds are just better at dealing with them than others... good high level fire mages can make their lives miserable simply by letting the rogue hit them

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: rh71I have a stack of 20 of each poison and replenish when needed. That's only 4 slots out of 1 bag. How many slots do you guys actually need for poisons ?

If you haven't noticed these guys are the typical over the top cannot plan type players. They have to carry everything because they don't know what they are doing. Hell going through a stack of poisons on my rogue would be a long night...

 

[rh71]

.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: Smilin
Sure, rogues can be nasty in PvP but that's only if played right. Same with any class. If you've gotten your butt kicked by a bunch of them it's not because the class is overpowered, you've just been running into good players. With their low health, armor, and lack of range, rogues can be smacked around by squishies just as easily as they can do the smacking. It's all about who has initiative. Rogues typically get initiative first but they can only sustain it for the duration of 100 energy...not enough time to kill.

100% agree with this. As a combat rogue I have even fewer advantages since it's less burst damage. I have to force a vanish to keep even the stun going but I run out of energy and merely do a couple more hits of white damage. If I blew every single cooldown available, I'd be able to stunlock a mage all the way through. Maybe... I'd have to be practiced at it and I've never wanted to kill any 1 person in PVP that badly to try.

On the other hand, if I miss even a single step (who wants to blow all their CDs at once in the middle of a BG?), the mage could easily sheep (if he hasn't already blinked out of cheap shot), kite me around / nuke me to death. It's a completely fair fight. I picked mages because they've got the lowest hp to start with, and do still happen to be the "easiest" to gank.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I can see you are the type of person that resorts to petty quips when you know you already lost an argument but refuse to admit it, so I will dumb it down for you.

Nope, I get tired of dealing with whiny little punks (i.e. Druids). Once I read the Druid forums after those patch notes were released, I no longer respect a druid who complains. Sorry, I have never once complained about a "nerf" to a single class that I play no matter how bad they are, but those people were just ridiculous. They made it seem like Blizzard cares if 100 whiny little nerds quit the game :roll:.

Real men complain about the buffs made to other classes .

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
You originally said: "Druid epic flight form either better be very expensive or very hard. Druid's never received an epic travel form, I don't know why they're getting this epic flight form."

You seem to think that Druids were denied an epic travel form out of some sort of punishment, and then were unjustly given an epic flight form. Druids were given epic flight form for the same reasons why Paladins and Warlocks were given epic land mounts in the original WoW. I wish we did receive an epic travel form, but the fact that we never did isn't an argument for not getting an epic flying form.

After reading the next post, it makes more sense. I never started the BC content on my druid yet and I probably never will... I can't even complete the content on my Shaman/Mage combo without getting bored an hour in.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I'm not sure what you are talking about here, Druids receive the normal flight training for free.

Well now that I know this, I'm even more annoyed. I had to pay 800g! :|

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I replied to you saying that this was not the case. Druids may put back getting their normal riding skill training a few levels or so if they can't afford it, but no druid skipped the epic land mount training because they just used their travel form, as you suggested. At least not since early 2005, to which there is no comparison to today. Besides, no competent player would complain that they have to come up with 540g by level 68 for their flying form. As you yourself stated later on, money in TBC is trivial to come by.

Wait wait, you said epic land mount... but I said superior. Skipping superior wasn't horribly uncommon and you can't forget that during these times, you could save 72g (full discounted price) then just buy the epic mount later with the appropriate training (8g). I knew people who did this, although personally... I wouldn't do it. I can't stand the ride sometimes in WoW on an epic mount let alone a superior mount and even more so a traveling form like Ghost Wolf or Travel Form.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
5000g is nothing, therefore Druids shouldn't receive an epic flight form? Apply this logic to Paladins and Warlocks before TBC was released and you will see how little sense this makes.

But that would only work if money were so easy to come by, correct? In my opinion, the only way to easily make money pre-BC was knowing exactly what sold for a high price (such as mats for resistance potions, etc) and selling those items.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
No, you didn't. You stated: "The only reason could be druids complaining that there's no point to their flight form..."

My reply: "Druids never complained about not getting an epic flying form..."

No no no, "could be" does not mean that they are. That just means that the only complaint that could be brought up from the current situation is... that did not mean that they are. The only complaining I've ever mentioned when it came to druid was the "nerfs" that they received a patch-or-so ago. Such complaining was also mentioned earlier in this post.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
Aikouka I think I realize now where your confusion comes from. You think that Druid's flight form is the equivalent of their travel form, but this isn't really the case. I guess since you aren't that knowledgeable about classes other then rogues you weren't aware of this distinction, but hopefully now that you do you will understand my reasoning.

Nope, I assumed it was the same as Ghost Wolf and Travel Form as I mentioned above, my druid hasn't entered the BC content yet. What's weird though is... Flight Form removes poly and movement-impairing effects like all other shapeshifts, yet it doesn't make you immune to poly like all other forms.

But, I know a lot more than just rogues . I'm quite knowledgeable with Rogues, Mages, Warriors, Shamans and Priests. I'm usually alright with the rest, but I won't know as much as someone who plays them constantly. Although, my specialty is the Rogue.

Originally posted by: Matthias99
You can do it ... a fair amount of luck ... and they can do fun things like chugging a Free Action Potion before you get back (stuns? What stuns?)

Protection-spec Warriors you can stunlock.

A fair amount of luck really refers to "you hope you crit" as one of the worst "features" of the rogue class is how certain builds are very dependent on crits.

Bah, who needs a FAP when you can use a LAP!

Also, I don't know what prot warriors you've fought, but I've never been able to stunlock one to death as I think the entire duel I had with one.. I had one single stun actually land. The rest were all resisted and I spent most of the duel stunned (Revenge Stun ). Although I still won .

Originally posted by: rh71
One more thing.. regarding the ice block nerf for mages... I've got nearly 30000 honor kills on a pvp server and not once have I seen a mage ice block twice in a row. I had no clue what this nerf was about until people started discussing it. I really don't know what I'm missing here.

I've seen it a few times, but it's fairly uncommon. It also may not be used one directly after the other, it may be used 5-10 seconds after the first one, especially against classes like warlocks as Ice Block will get rid of Fear and all the DoTs.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: rh71I have a stack of 20 of each poison and replenish when needed. That's only 4 slots out of 1 bag. How many slots do you guys actually need for poisons ?

If you haven't noticed these guys are the typical over the top cannot plan type players. They have to carry everything because they don't know what they are doing. Hell going through a stack of poisons on my rogue would be a long night...

Hm. I frequently change. Just last night in Shattered halls I flipped back and forth between instant, deadly and once mind numbing on my off hand. I'm typically tasked with handling the non CC'd caster so I want instant to allow purple stuns and blind (mebe mind numbing, typically don't need it unless there are many casters...single ones never get to cast). I would then flip to deadly on the bosses for the added dps on a target that wouldn't be stunned. It's also nice to dot instead of instant when main assisting. How fast they drop is a factor in that decision too.

I also sometimes go through a 20 stack of instant just questing and then maybe joining a dungeon run. It's not that I need 40 of em, but more than 20. A single stack nets you 5hrs total assuming you never ever switch and allow each one to wind down to 0 (bad idea). Switch merely once every 15min and you're down to half that time. You typically reapply a couple minutes before the timer expires so that gets shorter still. It's not common to run out but certainly possible.

Only occassionally do I exhaust a whole 20 stack but it so utterly sucks that it's worth the 2nd one. Vanish is the biggest example too. Nothing sucks worse than going to hit vanish and seeing the button darkened. Dang.

I would say I'm carrying what I carry because I *do* plan, not because I don't.

To each his own though.

 

[Aikouka]

It's also good to note that poison choice also depends on build. For example, with Mutilate, you need a poison on the mob/boss for enhanced damage (+50%). The only problem with this is, most bosses are immune to the originally nicest debuff poison... crippling. So the only way you could handle this would be using Deadly Poison, Wound Poison, Mind Numbing Poison or having a Hunter use one of his Stings. With the change in this coming patch that will make all poisons unlimited... this will greatly fix this issue.

Originally, I preferred using Wound to solve this problem. The reasoning is that with the change made to Wound Poison, it's useful in any situation as it now also does about 1/3 the damage of Instant Poison. But the original problem with Wound was that it is fairly expensive to make and it has a high application rate, so you could whip through all of your charges fairly easily.

EDIT: Fixed a word.

 

[torpid]

I also was confused by the ice block change. I have an ice spec mage that I haven't played for a couple of years. I remembered it being a long cooldown, in the order of minutes. Was it changed at some point to be a really short cooldown or is my memory off?

 

[ggnl]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: rh71I have a stack of 20 of each poison and replenish when needed. That's only 4 slots out of 1 bag. How many slots do you guys actually need for poisons ?

If you haven't noticed these guys are the typical over the top cannot plan type players. They have to carry everything because they don't know what they are doing. Hell going through a stack of poisons on my rogue would be a long night...

Hm. I frequently change. Just last night in Shattered halls I flipped back and forth between instant, deadly and once mind numbing on my off hand. I'm typically tasked with handling the non CC'd caster so I want instant to allow purple stuns and blind (mebe mind numbing, typically don't need it unless there are many casters...single ones never get to cast). I would then flip to deadly on the bosses for the added dps on a target that wouldn't be stunned. It's also nice to dot instead of instant when main assisting. How fast they drop is a factor in that decision too.

I also sometimes go through a 20 stack of instant just questing and then maybe joining a dungeon run. It's not that I need 40 of em, but more than 20. A single stack nets you 5hrs total assuming you never ever switch and allow each one to wind down to 0 (bad idea). Switch merely once every 15min and you're down to half that time. You typically reapply a couple minutes before the timer expires so that gets shorter still. It's not common to run out but certainly possible.

Only occassionally do I exhaust a whole 20 stack but it so utterly sucks that it's worth the 2nd one. Vanish is the biggest example too. Nothing sucks worse than going to hit vanish and seeing the button darkened. Dang.

I would say I'm carrying what I carry because I *do* plan, not because I don't.

To each his own though.

Not to mention that virtually every pvp encounter out in the field will require changing 1 or both poisons. It's not uncommon for me to go through a stack of deadly (my main dps poison) in ~2 hours game time. It's not practical to waste 20 minutes every two hours just to visit the poison vendor, so I cary multiple stacks of deadly and at least a full stack of every other poison, just in case. I have no idea how that equates to a lack of planning.

In any case, the detractors in this thread have inspired me to park my paladin and start playing my rogue again. Thanks for bringing me back into the fold!

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: torpid
I also was confused by the ice block change. I have an ice spec mage that I haven't played for a couple of years. I remembered it being a long cooldown, in the order of minutes. Was it changed at some point to be a really short cooldown or is my memory off?

Ice Block -> Cold Snap -> Ice Block

EDIT:

Originally posted by: ggnl
It's not uncommon for me to go through a stack of deadly (my main dps poison) in ~2 hours game time.

Is this solo PVE or PVP? If so, why would you want to use an uncontrollable DoT that won't allow Blind or Gouge?

 

[ggnl]

Originally posted by: torpid
I also was confused by the ice block change. I have an ice spec mage that I haven't played for a couple of years. I remembered it being a long cooldown, in the order of minutes. Was it changed at some point to be a really short cooldown or is my memory off?

It has a 5 minute cooldown but you can use cold snap to reset your cooldown and do it twice back to back. As mentioned above, it's useful because it removes all negative status effects.

 

[ggnl]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: ggnl
It's not uncommon for me to go through a stack of deadly (my main dps poison) in ~2 hours game time.

Is this solo PVE or PVP? If so, why would you want to use an uncontrollable DoT that won't allow Blind or Gouge?

I only use the deadly for pve. I switch whenever I'm going up against another player, which is why I go through poisons so quick, I tend to fight everyone I see. What I choose depends on the class I'm facing of course, but it's never deadly poison unless I'm facing another rogue, and even then I usually throw crippling on the OH in case they try to sprint away or I need to kite and heal with a bandage.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: ggnl
I only use the deadly for pve.

Is this Solo PVE? I know I sometimes use Deadly for pure farming, but the mobs are usually a bit lower level than I am, which is why I don't care as much, but if I'm questing around my level, I typically will use Crippling and Instant so I can keep the mob "in check" which allows me to Mutilate instead of having to resort to SS spam because I can't get behind.

 

[ggnl]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: ggnl
I only use the deadly for pve.

Is this Solo PVE? I know I sometimes use Deadly for pure farming, but the mobs are usually a bit lower level than I am, which is why I don't care as much, but if I'm questing around my level, I typically will use Crippling and Instant so I can keep the mob "in check" which allows me to Mutilate instead of having to resort to SS spam because I can't get behind.

I'm combat swords so no worries about positioning here. I did a mutilate build (and baskstab before they introduced the BC talents) for most of my L60 career so I know where you're coming from though. I actually prefer daggers but I picked up a HWL sword shortly before the xpac and it's still much better than any of the daggers I can get at L65.

 

[Coldkilla]

Bwawhahaha WoW hasn't taken my soul yet. I will never own the game.

Back to ArmA

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: ggnl
It's not uncommon for me to go through a stack of deadly (my main dps poison) in ~2 hours game time.

Is this solo PVE or PVP? If so, why would you want to use an uncontrollable DoT that won't allow Blind or Gouge?

I use instant for this reason.

He may be using a non-dagger or maybe hemmorage build where the target has a dot anyway.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: ggnl
In any case, the detractors in this thread have inspired me to park my paladin and start playing my rogue again. Thanks for bringing me back into the fold!

I simply *enjoy* playing a rogue. I would keep playing it if it got nerfed to ******. It's just a fun fun class to play.

If you're getting back into it can I suggest some solo runs into lbrs, brd, dm. Lots of chests in those. The brd vault is pretty fun to rob too.

I haven't really rediscovered the edges of the envelope since 70 so there may be some harder ones you can solo now. You can solo parts of your karazan key I know. The funnest moments I've had as a rogue are when I'm in some place that I have absolutely no business being in while alive. One slip up and you're either: sitting there watching the last few seconds of vanish tick away with your heart thumping, or dead.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: torpid
I also was confused by the ice block change. I have an ice spec mage that I haven't played for a couple of years. I remembered it being a long cooldown, in the order of minutes. Was it changed at some point to be a really short cooldown or is my memory off?

It has a 5 minute cooldown but you can use cold snap to reset your cooldown and do it twice back to back. As mentioned above, it's useful because it removes all negative status effects.

WTF, so a 5 minute cooldown is somehow overpowered because of another skill with a high cooldown? Jesus, they are really getting carried away. Now you can't even do something once every several minutes that's imbalanced. I guess next is removing the paladin bubbles.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: torpid
WTF, so a 5 minute cooldown is somehow overpowered because of another skill with a high cooldown? Jesus, they are really getting carried away. Now you can't even do something once every several minutes that's imbalanced. I guess next is removing the paladin bubbles.

It sounds like they may've done it to be comparable to the Paladin bubble. Although the time between is halved, most likely because Paladins can still act while in their special states.

Originally posted by: Smilin
I use instant for this reason.

He may be using a non-dagger or maybe hemmorage build where the target has a dot anyway.

Yeah, he mentioned that above. I was thinking he might be, but daggers are fairly popular these days with people seeing the high numbers of Mutilate (and ignoring the lower numbers ). I can't speak from a BC perspective as I haven't been combat since the middle of BWL, but usually mobs never lasted long enough for a deadly poisons to really run its course. This referring to your normal run of the mill mobs, not a boss or possibly an elite.

Originally posted by: Smilin
I simply *enjoy* playing a rogue. I would keep playing it if it got nerfed to ******. It's just a fun fun class to play.

If you're getting back into it can I suggest some solo runs into lbrs, brd, dm. Lots of chests in those. The brd vault is pretty fun to rob too.

I haven't really rediscovered the edges of the envelope since 70 so there may be some harder ones you can solo now. You can solo parts of your karazan key I know. The funnest moments I've had as a rogue are when I'm in some place that I have absolutely no business being in while alive. One slip up and you're either: sitting there watching the last few seconds of vanish tick away with your heart thumping, or dead.

Exactly some of the reasons why I enjoy being a rogue... that and I like ninjas, and the rogue was the closest thing . Skipping content and soloing content that wasn't meant to be soloed is a huge rush along with the satisfaction of figuring out how to do so.

The one thing I wish we could do is having Shadowstep as a trainable ability. The rogue class (assassin) in Guild Wars actually can do this no matter what and it even heals you :Q (depending on health differences)! But I guess that's just one thing I've always wanted to see, because in my eyes, Rogues in World of Warcraft are too "noob" as the idea of a rogue is to be sly and crafty... yet the rogues in WoW really aren't that sly or crafty. I'd always like to see more tricking abilities that could actually make the rogue even more useful in PVE (such as being able to Sap to CC and also some other in-combat technique that keeps a mob busy for some period of time).

 

[Smilin]

My biggest disappointment with rogues when I first started playing:

You can't pickpocket or otherwise steal from vendors. WTF? I play rogues/thieves in a lot of games and this is one of the first I can remember with such a limitation.

The whole wow pickpocket system is so lame. It's silly to sneak up on something, pickpocket, carefully sneak away and then... oh wait. I have to go back and kill him to get the rest of what he has. :roll:

Ah well. That will *definately* never be fixed in a patch.

 

[torpid]

Pick pocket should be usable during battle.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: torpid
I also was confused by the ice block change. I have an ice spec mage that I haven't played for a couple of years. I remembered it being a long cooldown, in the order of minutes. Was it changed at some point to be a really short cooldown or is my memory off?

It has a 5 minute cooldown but you can use cold snap to reset your cooldown and do it twice back to back. As mentioned above, it's useful because it removes all negative status effects.

It's funny because I never see them ice block and come out of it right away (just to remove those effects)... they always just use it as a last resort... stand there and get /ridiculed because of their impending death. Somewhere in their icy tomb I'm sure they're /praying-for-a-teammate-to-come-along-and-nuke-the-place.

I like /chicken myself... they give me plenty of time to type it out.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Smilin
You can't pickpocket or otherwise steal from vendors. WTF? I play rogues/thieves in a lot of games and this is one of the first I can remember with such a limitation.

Unless the mobs are listed as No Pockets, you should be able to pick pocket any vendor for a faction that you can go to war with. I've never really tried as if I remember correctly, that'll lower your rep. Although the last time I pick pocketed a faction mob was waaaay back in 2005 when my Rogue was in Desolace and I was pick pocketing the Magram centaurs.

 

[Malladine]

SH!T man they nerfed fury warriors