Why There won't be Peace In the Middle East

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: blackllotus
What do you want him to say? That the militants are bad people? I don't think 3chordcharlie is debating that point, I think he's debating the perception that Israel is somehow justified in every one of its actions. Israel has been downright careless in many of its responses to attacks and this only enrages the Palestinians even more.

No, 3chordcharlie isn't debating any perception -- if you had read any of his previous comments you would've seen how hard he has been trying to prove something by pointing out the disparity in the numbers of Palestinian to Israeli deaths.

It's funny how you guys are talking about moral highground, etc, etc ... while you have no qualms passing judgement over Israel's responses. What should Israel do? Ask the Palestinians to do some arrests? Ask th UN to move in?

Let me know when you have some proposals.

A few individuals notwithstanding (on both sides) there has been no concerted effort at peace.

I've already said what I think a 'measured response' from Israel would be. But it wouldn't solve anything anymore than what they are doing now.

Why don't you tell me what an acceptable outcome is, and how to acheive it?

 

[Aimster]

I want the chairs in that video. They look mighty comfy

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Narmer
It's ok to kill them with machine guns and Apache helicopters but not with suicide bombs? WTF is the difference? A dead man is a dead man all the same. You get no sympathy from us.

Ah your true colors show Narmer


"A dead jew is a good jew"

What a stupid statement.

*hint: the palestinians don't have helicopters*

Too bad

 

[Aimster]

Israeli soldiers with machine guns rarely shoot at innocent civilians.
They do however fire at apartment buildings that have civilians in them and cars that have family members of their suspects riding with them.

The difference between that and suicide bombings is ..

The mentality. A suicide bomber's goal is to kill as many innocent Israelis as possible.
The man behind the trigger of an F-16 or Apache does not see the victims and really has no idea who they are taking out. They don't get to look into their victim's eyes.
A suicide bomber knows exactly who is going to die and doesn't give .02 about their death.

Both sides are wrong, but suicide bombings is fanatical behavior and has made the Palestinians look like scumbags. If the Palestinians didn't have suicide bombings maybe the rest of the world would pay more attention to the actions of the Israelis.
Since Palestinians like to brainwash their children with fantasy virgin heavens ... Israel might as well do whatever they want because in the end they can just show how barbaric the other side is.

.... always remember Israel is made up of 20% Muslims. Those Muslims are at peace with the Jews. While being discriminated for being a minority associated with the barbarians and facing a rising battle with their own to have a nice standard of living... they have not sunken to that barbaric level of their buddies over on the other side.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israeli soldiers with machine guns rarely shoot at innocent civilians.
They do however fire at apartment buildings that have civilians in them and cars that have family members of their suspects riding with them.

And at schools. And at people crossing the street. And at foreign peace workers in fluorescent jackets. Etc...

I see the suicide bombers as being as evil as a lot of the settlers and soldiers.

The stuff Fox won't show:

Settler vs Palestinian part 1
Settler vs Palestinian part 2
Drunken settlers vs British filmcrew
Settler kids vs Human Rights crew
Channel 4 documentary

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
I've already said what I think a 'measured response' from Israel would be. But it wouldn't solve anything anymore than what they are doing now.

Your so-called measured-response is not a valid option; this ain't a Rambo movie.

Why don't you tell me what an acceptable outcome is, and how to acheive it?

As someone already noted in an earlier comment: if the Palestinian stop this "resistance", then there will be fairly quick progress due to internal pressure in Israel, and external pressure. In terms of autonomy, it will take a bit of time to let things cool down, so that Israel can be certain they are not up to their old shenanigans, but in terms of the economy, the Palestinian will have a blast.

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israeli soldiers with machine guns rarely shoot at innocent civilians.
They do however fire at apartment buildings that have civilians in them and cars that have family members of their suspects riding with them.

Aside for the fact that you make a generalization regarding their MO, you are also insinuating that they fire on buildings without a reason; remember the mosque incident?

Also, you criticize the method of striking a car, so why don't you tell us how it should be done.

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
And at schools. And at people crossing the street. And at foreign peace workers in fluorescent jackets. Etc...

More hot air without context.

As for the settlers: there are morons, namely those with religious zeal, and sometimes straight from the USA; they need to be smacked.

 

[Aimster]

I'm sorry Israel defender of the world. but

You do not strike apartment buildings killing innocent civilians to kill a man suspected of carrying out attacks on innocent civilians.

Do you not see how that makes no sense at all?

Like I said you defend Israel no matter what. Show me a post where you have said Israel is wrong in ONE incident. You cannot. Hell Israel can nuke California and you'll have some excuse for it.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israeli soldiers with machine guns rarely shoot at innocent civilians.
They do however fire at apartment buildings that have civilians in them and cars that have family members of their suspects riding with them.

And at schools. And at people crossing the street. And at foreign peace workers in fluorescent jackets. Etc...

I see the suicide bombers as being as evil as a lot of the settlers and soldiers.

The stuff Fox won't show:

Settler vs Palestinian part 1
Settler vs Palestinian part 2
Drunken settlers vs British filmcrew
Settler kids vs Human Rights crew
Channel 4 documentary

What happened to the Israeli soldiers who carried out those attacks?

Praised? Medals? Investigated? Arrested?

Palestinians praise their bombers. Do Israelis do the same?

 

[imported_dna]

Aimster, you are a clown that tries to attribute sayings to me, and who sees Megue in the shadows before you go to bed.

You talk of apartment buildings but provide no reference, while ignoring the responsibility of the militants hiding amongst civilians.

However, this isn't new, as it goes back to the discussion regarding the bombing of the Hezbollah buildings in Beirut. You were as adamant then regarding the reasoning behind it, even though I've pointed out that their HQ bunkers was underneath.

It took an article, where a Hezbollah spokeperson admitted that their bunker was bomb. for you to perform the vanishing act that usually do when you're proven wrong.

 

[Jaskalas]

A military that hides among its people, deserves to have no people at all. Any location proving aid/comfort to a fighter is a legitimate target and it is the duty of Israel to strike it.

 

[Aimster]

I'm sorry but you cannot justify the killing of civilians as long as you kill someone who is suspected of killing innocent civilians.

Israel used cluster bombs in Beirut Lebanon. They used almost all of their cluster bombs on the last day. Many inside Beirut. I guess Hezbollah just happened to have 1,000+ bunkers spread out all around Beirut Lebanon the capital. Hell might as well nuke the entire area while you are at it. Kill innocent civilians, who cares. Right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5360150.stm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/18/lebano14412.htm

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
A military that hides among its people, deserves to have no people at all. Any location proving aid/comfort to a fighter is a legitimate target and it is the duty of Israel to strike it.

I'm sorry, but you do not kill innocent civilians to kill people suspected of killing innocent civilians.

Another hate-filled post.

 

[imported_dna]

Aimster, we're waiting for you to step off your pedestal and tell us what should be done.

As for Lebanon, I've already told you my position: they should've leveled the towns and villages where Hezbollah was making a stand, i.e. they had a base, as they would be back to use it again under the auspices of the almighty UN.

Here's one for you: Lebanese army seizes Hezbollah ammunition in Beirut suburb.

 

[Aimster]

I don't care about the actions of Hezbollah. That doesn't justify the actions of Israel.

Israel was INVADING Lebanon. Yes, those coward Lebanese for hiding in their homes and villages. Perfect. Israel will just bomb their villages and homes to bring out the cowards. Hell why stop short at the South? Let's bomb Beirut and make their government pay. Let's bomb Christian towns as well. Let's flood their cities with cluster bombs. Let's flood Beirut with cluster bombs while we are at it. Let's bomb the North near the Syria border. Hezbollah only has 2,000-5,000 fighters. They each need their own cluster bombs. Right? They must be HUGE.

& don't even bring up that kidnapping incident. Look at the last 6 years. Both sides have been fighting military to military. Neither side is innocent of trying to keep the peace between the two forces.

You cannot prove one side is better than the other side. You are filled with bias. Why should anyone take you seriously when you have NEVER criticized the actions of Israel?
That's like taking the word of Bush's PRM for Bush's actions.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Aimster
I don't care about the actions of Hezbollah. That doesn't justify the actions of Israel.
...
& don't even bring up that kidnapping incident. Look at the last 6 years. Both sides have been fighting military to military. Neither side is innocent of trying to keep the peace between the two forces.

Exactly!

You don't want to deal with little facts that don't work for your argument.
I guess as part of their kidnapping they had to fire at some towns as well, right?

Israel got out six years ago, but Hezbollah kept on "resisting".

Seriously, in what parallel dimension do you live?
Israel doesn't want to spend any money on having to deal with Hezbollah, but those guys keep at it. Nasrallah himself declared that he want to destroy Israel; it doesn't get any simpler than that.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Aimster.

Hezbollah controlled that area of Lebanon (possibly with the blessings of the Lebanon government and obviously with the blessing/support of Syria).

Israel went after a military organization and should have removed the ability of that organization to wage conflict against them. Instead they (as usual) handicapped themselves by attempting to minimize casualties and damage.

Until Israel starts removing the ability of the opponents to have hidden locations from which to strike, they expose themselves to further operations.

And their opponents will take advantage of any weaknesses that Israel provides to them.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: dna
Aimster, we're waiting for you to step off your pedestal and tell us what should be done.

As for Lebanon, I've already told you my position: they should've leveled the towns and villages where Hezbollah was making a stand, i.e. they had a base, as they would be back to use it again under the auspices of the almighty UN.

Here's one for you: Lebanese army seizes Hezbollah ammunition in Beirut suburb.

How about you stop avoiding the point Aimster has made multiple times in his post? How is killing civilians an appropriate response to people who kill civilians? Blowing up an appartment building is an act that clearly targets civilians as well as potential militants.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Aimster.

Hezbollah controlled that area of Lebanon (possibly with the blessings of the Lebanon government and obviously with the blessing/support of Syria).

Israel went after a military organization and should have removed the ability of that organization to wage conflict against them. Instead they (as usual) handicapped themselves by attempting to minimize casualties and damage.

Until Israel starts removing the ability of the opponents to have hidden locations from which to strike, they expose themselves to further operations.

And their opponents will take advantage of any weaknesses that Israel provides to them.

Explain to me what is so barbaric about the actions of Hezbollah when comparing them to the actions of Israel.

Israel demolished Southern Lebanon. They didn't care who was left there.
That is justified while Hezbollah rocket attacks is not?

They both did the same exact thing.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: dna
Aimster, we're waiting for you to step off your pedestal and tell us what should be done.

As for Lebanon, I've already told you my position: they should've leveled the towns and villages where Hezbollah was making a stand, i.e. they had a base, as they would be back to use it again under the auspices of the almighty UN.

Here's one for you: Lebanese army seizes Hezbollah ammunition in Beirut suburb.

How about you stop avoiding the point Aimster has made multiple times in his post? How is killing civilians an appropriate response to people who kill civilians? Blowing up an appartment building is an act that clearly targets civilians as well as potential militants.

Those civilians are the fighters or the direct support of the fighters.

The stratagem of Terrorism combines the two to gander your support in their defense. It works on you perfectly, as you use the ideals of ?suspected? or ?innocent? when weapons are stored in homes, and rockets are launched from neighborhoods. They are brought into the war zone by their militant fighters and are legitimate targets for carpet bombing.

War is about survival, not about playing nice and trying to lose. Radical Islam needs to be crushed until they surrender or die.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: dna
Aimster, we're waiting for you to step off your pedestal and tell us what should be done.

As for Lebanon, I've already told you my position: they should've leveled the towns and villages where Hezbollah was making a stand, i.e. they had a base, as they would be back to use it again under the auspices of the almighty UN.

Here's one for you: Lebanese army seizes Hezbollah ammunition in Beirut suburb.

How about you stop avoiding the point Aimster has made multiple times in his post? How is killing civilians an appropriate response to people who kill civilians? Blowing up an appartment building is an act that clearly targets civilians as well as potential militants.

Those civilians are the fighters or the direct support of the fighters.

The stratagem of Terrorism combines the two to gander your support in their defense. It works on you perfectly, as you use the ideals of ?suspected? or ?innocent? when weapons are stored in homes, and rockets are launched from neighborhoods. They are brought into the war zone by their militant fighters and are legitimate targets for carpet bombing.

War is about survival, not about playing nice and trying to lose. Radical Islam needs to be crushed until they surrender or die.

women and children in apartment buildings and the sons/daughters of suspected murders are justified targets now?

Sounds exactly like what the suicide bombers are doing in Palestine. Congrats you just justified suicide bombings.

Aren't you the same person who linked stupidity and wearing a headscarf together in a previous thread?

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Explain to me what is so barbaric about the actions of Hezbollah when comparing them to the actions of Israel.

Israel demolished Southern Lebanon. They didn't care who was left there.
That is justified while Hezbollah rocket attacks is not?

They both did the same exact thing.

Israel responsed, Hezbollah started it.

The difference is that the press held Israel accountable for civilian deaths even when accidental but excused Hezbollah from purposely targetting civilian areas.

Of course when you come to the realization that Hezbollah and the muslims the represent do this on a daily basis I guess the press doesn't need to comment on "standard practices"

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: Aimster
Explain to me what is so barbaric about the actions of Hezbollah when comparing them to the actions of Israel.

Israel demolished Southern Lebanon. They didn't care who was left there.
That is justified while Hezbollah rocket attacks is not?

They both did the same exact thing.

Israel responsed, Hezbollah started it.

The difference is that the press held Israel accountable for civilian deaths even when accidental but excused Hezbollah from purposely targetting civilian areas.

Of course when you come to the realization that Hezbollah and the muslims the represent do this on a daily basis I guess the press doesn't need to comment on "standard practices"

wrong
both sides have been fighting each other for the last 6 years. Military to military.
Hezbollah did not start anything and neither did Israel.

Israel used every missile in their inventory and flooded Lebanon with cluster bombs. That is justifiable to you?
Hezbollah only numbers in 10,000 at the highest estimates.
Israel used far more than 10,000 bombs and missiles.
You are saying for each Hezbollah fighter, there was a valid target?

Israel bombed the Christians as well. Go on say something negative about the Christians. Almost 50% of Lebanon is Christian

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: Aimster
Explain to me what is so barbaric about the actions of Hezbollah when comparing them to the actions of Israel.

Israel demolished Southern Lebanon. They didn't care who was left there.
That is justified while Hezbollah rocket attacks is not?

They both did the same exact thing.

Israel responsed, Hezbollah started it.

The difference is that the press held Israel accountable for civilian deaths even when accidental but excused Hezbollah from purposely targetting civilian areas.

Of course when you come to the realization that Hezbollah and the muslims the represent do this on a daily basis I guess the press doesn't need to comment on "standard practices"

wrong
both sides have been fighting each other for the last 6 years. Military to military.
Hezbollah did not start anything and neither did Israel.

Israel used every missile in their inventory and flooded Lebanon with cluster bombs. That is justifiable to you?
Hezbollah only numbers in 10,000 at the highest estimates.
Israel used far more than 10,000 bombs and missiles.
You are saying for each Hezbollah fighter, there was a valid target?

Israel bombed the Christians as well. Go on say something negative about the Christians. Almost 50% of Lebanon is Christian

cut and paste from wiki
The conflict began after Hezbollah fired Katyusha rockets and mortars at Israeli military positions and border villages, diverting attention from another Hezbollah unit that crossed the border, kidnapping two Israeli soldiers and killing three others.[1] Israeli troops attempted to rescue the abducted soldiers but were unsuccessful, losing five more in the attempt. Another five soldiers and five civilians were wounded in the attacks

As for your pitiful strawman arguments ... hahahahaha

the only thing bad about the Christians in Lebanon is they don't have the courage to stand up to the Hezbollah either. There, thats something bad ain't it? Satisfy your requirement?

Cluster bombs are a valid weapon in a war. It amazes me that people don't understand the one basic concept of war, you cannot win it by playing to some sort of rules established by those who aren't participating.

We only beat Germany and Japan because we ended the will of the people to support the maniacs running the show. Until we do the same to the Islamofascists they will always be there. In other words, until it becomes too damn dangerous to support them they will always be around. Unfortunately that means the civilians who tolerate them will have to know that that tolerance is more dangerous than the terrorists.

I guess we could just maintain the status quo your type likes, that way we can have lots of people dieing FOREVER

 

[Aimster]

Do you lack reading comprehension skills?

I said Israel and Lebanon have been fighting a battle for 6 years now military to military.
You think this is the first time Hezbollah has striked Israeli forces or Israeli forces have bombed Lebanon or attacked Hezbollah positions?

Sorry but cluster bombs are not a valid weapon in war when the enemy only numbers in 10,000 range and using 1.2 million cluster bombs scattered all over Lebanon. Israeli generals even said they flooded the South with them. The UN is picking up the pieces now and 30 civilians died as a result after the war and this was in January.

Hezbollah is not an Islamic group that wants Jews dead. It has Christian supporters
You seem to lack the purpose of Hezbollah

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Do you lack reading comprehension skills?

I said Israel and Lebanon have been fighting a battle for 6 years now military to military.
You think this is the first time Hezbollah has striked Israeli forces or Israeli forces have bombed Lebanon or attacked Hezbollah positions?

Sorry but cluster bombs are not a valid weapon in war when the enemy only numbers in 10,000 range and using 1.2 million cluster bombs scattered all over Lebanon. Israeli generals even said they flooded the South with them. The UN is picking up the pieces now and 30 civilians died as a result after the war and this was in January.

Hezbollah is not an Islamic group that wants Jews dead. It has Christian supporters
You seem to lack the purpose of Hezbollah

Your the one who has no clue what Hezbollah is or is about. Show us some documentation that it has Christian supporters.

As for cluster bombs or what not, whats next, restricting the size of bombs that can be dropped? How about we say that bombs can only be dropped from 4 to pm local time?

Well guess what, its a freaking war. Civilians die in wars. Read my previous point, if you get the civilians to realize that supporting directly or indirectly the maniacs bringing the war to your doorstep is a big negative then they just might put an end to their support and help remove the problem.

Hence, if they are willing to tolerate Hezbollah using their lands for launching attacks against another they they by default deserve the hell they get in return. Life doesn't work that way. You can stop their ability to wage war by demoralizing them or killing them, sometimes it takes a lot of both. That is how WW2 was ended. This war between Lebanon and Israel will never end until one side or the other is unable to continue.