Todd33
Diamond Member
- Oct 16, 2003
- 7,842
- 2
- 81
I work in a ~50 person engineering dept, I only know 1-2 conservatives. Most people I know hate Bush, these are highly educated people. I guess you will label them elitist liberals, but they contribute a ton of tax revenue, unlike the red states fun-duh-mentalist.
Originally posted by: Stunt
I hope it isn't a Chrysler....
Of all the car companies, they have the most offshored products, more than the Japanese companies.
Saturn, actually. Built in Spring Hill, Tennessee.
IHateMyJob2004
Lifer
- Sep 29, 2004
- 18,656
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- 91
Outsourceing. Giving jobs to people in other countries whose wages are so low that it has no impact o nteh global economy, while reducing the costs of those using the low cost laborers
my grandpa told me an idea he had about out sourcing jobs. IF an american company outsourced an american job to some other 3rd world country. The products produce in those 3rd world countries cant be sold in the US.
I think out sourcing is bad, sure it offers us lower prices, but when you start out sourcing more and more jobs. More people are going tobe unemployed, so there be less money being spend, sales at grocery stores, auto manufacutres, eletroinc stores, super markets and etc will drop. All of these companies will have to lay off there employess so they can make money.
I think out sourcing is bad, sure it offers us lower prices, but when you start out sourcing more and more jobs. More people are going tobe unemployed, so there be less money being spend, sales at grocery stores, auto manufacutres, eletroinc stores, super markets and etc will drop. All of these companies will have to lay off there employess so they can make money.
In the long run it will all work out. And as a much better econimy for all. Why? Because there are so many more consumers. Its the short run that stings. The huge plus is that it will bring much more stability to the world as people that have things will act in a way as not to lose what they have. Can you say enlightened self interest?? But the next 30 40 years for america.. My recomendation would be be a farmer. Thats what america has allways had. Its really the most fertile place in the world. You cant export soil and weather.
You need to understand that many American liberals have changed. They have decided to compromise their values for politics. You can easily see it on this board. We have "liberals" that advociate white-only immigration. I call it the Europeanization of American liberals. It's pretty sad.
In the long run, we're all dead. I doubt I'll live long enough to see it balance out and longevity is in my genes.
You only live once that I know of. A cure for cancer today doesn't help the guy who died from it yesterday.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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The issue is, who benefits? Who gets the savings? If you're wealthy and own the capital you benefit because the decrease in wages will result in your receiving a larger percentage of an employee's labor contriubtion to the act of production.
Think of it this way--it's a merger between the American labor market and the global labor market. Since labor, including educated labor, is in huge supply globally, a merger will increase the supply of labor dramatically. We know that when supply increases relative to demand, the price point (wages, quality of life) must decrease.
We will end up with an averaging out in the standard of living between America and the third world. No thanks.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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Keep drinking the Kool Aid. Education and innovation are not the solution to global labor wage arbitrage. Rather, they are the opiate the politicians and media feed to the masses.
First off, we already have a huge oversupply of college-educated Americans, many of whom are underemployed and unemployed. That includes science Ph.D.'s (don't get me started on the lack of economic value of a science Ph.D.).
By the way, where are all of those wonderful high-value-added knowledge-based jobs? The computer jobs went to India. Biotechnology research can be done by foreign Ph.D.'s in southeast Asia. Engineering research can be done in India. Even some functions involving patent law can be done in India. Next Big Thing technology R&D will also be done abroad since the labor will be cheaper. Looking under the surface of the monthly job reports reveals few high-value-added jobs, almost no new jobs in import-export sensitive areas, and mostly low paying service jobs. So where are the high-value-added college-education-requiring jobs for all of our college graduates?
It's wonderful that you have yours, but what about the rest of us who weren't so lucky to find a job appropriate to our skills or to keep from being a layoff victim during the American Economic Holocaust?
The only place left for american jobs is goverment work which can't be out sourced. No one in india is going to get the contract to build our next weapons.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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Hence why China, Japan and India are overtaking the US in science and engineering. Also why "white collar" jobs are also being offshored.[/quote]It's called competitive advantage.
If you cannot compete...you are destined to fail.[/quote]
This has nothing to do with innovation or the ability to innovate. Americans have, historically, done a fine job and would continue to do so unless the government becomes socialist.
The Chinese and Japanese are overtaking Americans in science and engineering because Americans no longer see any reason to dedicate themselves to those fields. It no longer makes economic sense for them to do so. The Japanese are smart and understand basic economics and use trade protectionism. The Chinese are just cheaper.
It's not that Americans cannot compete against other people earning the same wages and standard of living. It's that it's very difficult to compete against people willing to work for 1/5 the wages. It has nothing to do with talent and productive ability and everything to do with wage arbitrage.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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Are you saying that you deny the reports that people in various fields are being laid off as their jobs are being sent overseas, such as computer programmers? Are you denying the reports and abundant testimony that people have had difficulty finding jobs comparable to the ones they lost?
Are you closed to the possiblity that as a result of losing one's job to outsourcing it is possible to lose one's entire career in a field. (It goes like this...you lose your job during the Bush Depression and cannot find another one...then you go unemployed and/or underemployed-out-of-field for two years and voila--you are now unemployable in your field since you've been out of it for too long--you'd face huge amounts of discrimation from halfwitted hiring managers.)
Under true capitalism, the government wouldn't steal money from people in order to give it to others. Foreign aid would certainly be off the list. Of course, individuals would be free to donate money to foreign causes any way they wished.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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Hold on a second. What is Germany's internal economic policy like? Semi-socialist? Also, is it possible that Germany reports its unemployment rate honestly, unlike the United States which dramatically undercounts it? Does Germany have a trade deficit or a trade surplus? (I don't know.)
Might it be possible to have trade protectionism while at the same time having moderated capitalism internally?
You should note that to an extent, foreign outsourcing is like importing the ravages of socialism and communism. As a result of socialism and communism, huge amounts of people ended up impoverished, which is part of where this huge oversupply of relatively impoverished labor came from. Thus, when you merge your nation's labor market and economy with foreign economies, you are essentially importing the poverty created by socialism and communism.
Could you please point to all of the new high-value-added college-education-requiring jobs that are opening up for Americans? You know, the ones that are supposed to make us so happy that we have foreign outsourcing that everyone will cheer for it? (If they existed, you can bet the outsourcing apologists would be shouting it out from the rooftops.)
Perhaps you can put forth a convincing argument to explain why, considering supply and demand of labor, foreign outsourcing will benefit middle class Americans.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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Hang on a second. Are you certain that that number is a real, bona fide number that reflects reality or a massaged number intended to obfuscate the truth? What about the thousands (if not millions) of people who were too discouraged to continue looking for work or who retired early? What about the hordes of people who are severely underemployed?
When you consider those issues, the government's unemployment number is almost meaningless as a guage of the health of the employment market.
By the way, if you know of any employers seeking smart college-educated Americans with advanced degrees and/or professional degrees that provide evidence of critical reasoning skills and the ability to engage in independent thought (such as a science degree) for high-value-added jobs, please let me know. Surely you must know of several $50,000+/year positions that are going wanting for good candidates. If the economy is so good, then surely the employers would be happy to hire talented people and train them even if they don't have the exact desired undergraduate major. (All I know of are the weekly news reports about how another large corporation is having to lay off thousands of employees.)
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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You make it sound like the jobs being lost are low-value-added manufacturing jobs. That wouldn't be so awful if high-value-added knowledge-based jobs were available such as <cough cough> computer programming. But now even knowledge-based jobs are being sent to India (and Americans are being replaced locally by foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas).
For years the bromide was that displaced workers should get job training and that training for a knowledge-based field would solve people's employment problems. But today the big question is, "Retrain and Re-educate--for what?"
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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We don't know because we don't know what the American Free Market wage would be. Perhaps they are paid too little as a result of decades of global labor wage arbitrage and mass immigration. To find out, we'd need to have an isolated economy with zero immigration.
Perhaps you lack a sense of rational selfish interest? It's important for Americans to get the jobs because you are in the American labor market. Do you really think you can keep your job when other Americans are offering to do it for 25% your current rate of pay? A healthy employment market befits all Americans.
They need to do it by adopting moderated capitalism and developing their own markets, as opposed to mooching off the fruits of American capitalism.
Sadly, it would be very difficult for the rest of the world to raise its standard of living because of overpopulation, and if it did, we might find that we have a shortage of natural resources for such a huge population.
True. In fact, many liberals aren't opposed to outsourcing or immigration at all because they are altruists.
Regarding redistribution of wealthy nationally, it doesn't necessarily imply foreign outsourcing. For example, the motivation for advocating redistruction of wealth could be out of a sense that the rich have earned money they didn't deserve. For example, if the labor market were flooded with too much labor, wages could go down allowing the rich to retain a larger fraction of an employee's contribution to the act of production. In an isolated American free market, in contrast, the rich might not earn as much.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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I disagree. He should do what is in his rational selfish interest and that very well may be to purchase the less expensive foreign product. It's not like his own virtuous action would end up benefiting him.
If we are going to allow the commons to be tragically despoiled, then it makes sense for everyone to enjoy their fair share of despoiling the commons.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
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Hold on a second. I would tend to agree with you that cheaper products--in terms of products requiring less labor-hours to produce--is good and would benefit everyone.
However, whether or not cheap products resulting from outsourcing (as opposed to a real bona fide productivity innovation) benefits Americans is a very different matter. I say that because while the costs on the front-end decrease, no one ever considers the costs on the back end. What about how outsourcing redistrbutes wealth from the lower classes to the upper classes in the short term (prices of goods and services nearly the same, labor costs lower at the expense of the lower classes)? What about the costs suffered as some people lose their jobs and careers (and find previously purchased training now worthless)? What about the social costs?
Just where is this benefit that you allege and the higher standard of living? A 10% cost decrease combined with a 20% wage decrease is far worse than no decreases in costs or wages.
Question outsourcing.
[
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
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I wouldn't be so sure. According to an article that I read, our nation no longer has the ability to produce naval ships on its own.
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