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Why it's good to send US jobs to India

rookie1010

Senior member
I read this article on the web,


Why it's good to send US jobs to India

Gary Hamel | September 16, 2005

When white collar jobs can be exported as easily as blue collar jobs were in the previous century, should society pick up the tab, asks Gary Hamel, one of America's leading management thinkers.

Here he offers a radical view on the ongoing BPO slugfest between India and the United States.

Currently in the US, the issue is about how all jobs in the country are potentially going to India or somewhere else in the world. Twenty years ago we accepted that this could happen to manufacturing jobs -- but we did not consider that it could also happen to service jobs.

Now we have to get our minds around the concept that business process outsourcing is happening and will continue to happen in high wage, highly skilled jobs.

Grab the white collar

For example, a stock analyst in New York earns approximately $100,000. Now if that job could be done in India for $20,000, that stock analyst in New York is basically asking society to subsidise him to the tune of $80,000. It's interesting, because if you think about some of these jobs, ten or twenty years ago they were not globally mobile.

India and Outsourcing: Complete Coverage

Here is another example. What would a reasonably skilled hairdresser make in New Delhi? For argument's sake, let's say $100. So for one cut, he would charge $1. Now the same haircut, with the same level of skills, in the US could cost $35.

Why does that job cost $35? Because it cannot be exported -- yet -- and people still need to get their hair cut. And so the hairdresser gets $35, and society subsidises him by $34 merely for the fact that that job is geographically bound.

Let me give you another example. Unlike the hairdresser, I compete in a global economy. My income comes from countries all over the world where I speak. So I am selling something that is globally traded, just like a Unix engineer is selling a skill that is globally traded.

Many people do not sell skills that are globally traded. Such people, if they are earning more than the cheapest possible rate anywhere in the world, are literally being sub-sidised by those people whose skills are being traded in the global economy.

Citizens or consumers

What the US is discovering now, as more service jobs are exported, is that there are parts of the economy that are basically being subsidised in a hidden way. Now as more such jobs are exported, the US will have another very interesting conversion, as a society.

On one hand, if a service can be done cheaper somewhere else, then that is exactly what US consumers will want. On the other hand, citizens will also be concerned about the long-term consequences that the economy will face if it cannot create enough new jobs to make up the difference.

If the solution is to stop subsidising people and send their jobs offshore, then how does one redeploy these individuals? This is a difficult challenge.

A grand canyon

Finally, today, there are in Britain, in France, in Germany, and in the US, a reasonable number of individuals whose jobs over time will be done, more cheaply somewhere else. As these jobs become tradable, and move offshore, it will result in increasing income disparity in these countries.

There will be greater income differences between people because there will be more income pressure on the less skilled people and those whose skills can be traded in the global economy. This is exactly what is happening slowly in the US.

In the long term, the income distribution of these countries may begin look more like it does in developing countries like India.

Gary Hamel is Founder and Chairman of Strategos, a consulting firm focussed on strategy innovation. He is also visiting professor of strategic and international management at the London Business School.

can you guys tell me what the author means by
There will be greater income differences between people because there will be more income pressure on the less skilled people and those whose skills can be traded in the global economy. This is exactly what is happening slowly in the US.
 
Hopefully this story will end by this jerk losing his job to a correspondent in India. Then we'll see how he like living on unemployment and competing with people able to work for 1/10th his salary.

I really have no problems with companies investing in India or China. My problem is when companies and greedy executives invest there at the expense of America.
 
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Hopefully this story will end by this jerk losing his job to a correspondent in India. Then we'll see how he like living on unemployment and competing with people able to work for 1/10th his salary.

I really have no problems with companies investing in India or China. My problem is when companies and greedy executives invest there at the expense of America.

:thumbsup:

(see sig)
 
I support outsourcing...
from my blog:
The idea of outsourcing is a much politicized issue these days as manufacturing facilities are shifted to other countries. Being a Mechanical Engineer specializing in Manufacturing, I hope to address some of the concerns with outsourcing and how it actually benefits everybody, not just corporations.

The first thing one must realize is the ideal number of manufacturing jobs is zero. Humans are inefficient, inaccurate, weak and slow. Over the history of manufacturing, we have made great strides to reduce the amount of labour needed to manufacture goods. For example: before forklifts, people would have to lift and move goods manually; forklifts alone eliminated many jobs, is this a bad thing? No, it?s the natural progression of the business. We are so technologically advanced these days that we literally don?t need human labour at all for some manufacturing applications. Europe with its extreme protectionist regulation is on the cutting edge of this technology, there are now ?dark factories? (requires no humans to operate) scattered around Europe and continue to be developed. German companies at one point made it company policy to invest $1 million in equipment if it could reduce one human job, saving the labour costs and benefits of employees. (Note the high unemployment in Europe)

Another misconception about outsourcing is the idea that we are losing jobs; nothing could be further from the truth. There has been a shift of jobs from the rich 1st world nations to the poorer 3rd world nations. During this shift, labour costs in the new country tend to be so low, machinery is being used much less, creating many more jobs than we could ever expect from manufacturing domestically. The shutdown of a 100 person plant here is sure to generate many times the number of jobs overseas, and that?s not even considering tertiary business like products and services people buy with their new income. ?We? as a human race are increasing the number of jobs, at the same time, helping the 3rd world build sustainable wealth.

A large concern for people in the 1st world looking in on manufacturing in the 3rd world is working conditions. This is one area I do feel people should be concerned with, as there were many mistakes made in our industrial revolution which should be prevented in the 3rd world as they become industrial powerhouses. There is a progression, and with time, people will gain wealth and demand more from their companies and countries which will give them some of the luxuries we have been accustomed to. The perception of these companies coming into the 3rd world to do business are not looked down upon by locals, they are embraced and loved. I asked this question of a new Vietnamese immigrant whom I worked with last summer. He said that the companies are well liked and they don?t consider the working conditions poor at all. The alternative to working for these companies is struggling to get by on no income whatsoever and slaving away to accomplish basic life tasks. Also, over the many years outsourcing has been practiced, 3rd world wealth has been growing drastically; these countries are gaining wealth faster than the 1st world nations and we are closing the wide gap between the rich and the poor in the world.

Outsourcing has been practiced since the 70?s and was accelerated in the 90?s; throughout this time period we were ?losing? jobs to outsourcing. The result of this was not higher unemployment and lower income jobs as some advocate, but a steady and declining unemployment rate and increasing income, well above inflation. The median (middle income, not weighted to the rich) American income since the 1990 has increased 61%, outpacing inflation by over 15%. If outsourcing is the culprit of high income job loss, it has had little to no effect on the progression of domestic wealth in a country that staunchly supports free trade and outsourcing of production. With the introduction of outsourcing, comes cheaper products, instead of buying a shirt made in the US for $30, people are now able to buy a shirt for $5; freeing up $25 in capital to invest in more products and services, raising people?s standard of living and livelihood. Cheaper goods will always be better for consumers as they are not confined to spending all their money on core essential items, but an opportunity to spend money on education and the like.

In conclusion, outsourcing is not something to be afraid of, but something to accept and embrace. The future in manufacturing is no jobs; outsourcing is not causing the loss of these jobs but allowing a transfer of effectively dead jobs to the poor of the world. The decline in domestic manufacturing has had little to no effect on our ability to generate and increase our wealth, and at the same time given the 3rd world a chance to bring themselves up out of poverty and generate wealth much faster than the richer 1st world. Leftists feel trade barriers, tariffs, and regulation is the way to save jobs; the opposite is true, this does not save jobs, but allows the jobs to die off slowly and restricts the 3rd world from benefiting from this natural progression. Where you are born should not be an issue in today?s world, restricting the good jobs for the 1st world and our own countrymen at the expense of those who actually need jobs and wealth is just wrong. If you cannot see how outsourcing benefits us domestically, try to understand how it helps those in other countries and do what is best for the human race, not just for our own chunk of the planet. To borrow a concept from the movie ?The Corporation?, the bread maker does not work to feed people, but to earn money to feed his own family. Similarly with outsourcing, companies are there for financial reasons, but in the end benefits the 3rd world more than any other form of aid ever could.
 
outsourcing :thumbsup:

If they can get it done for less, what is the problem.

Also, many patients are outsourcing themselves to India and other countries. When they can get treatment for $5,000 as opposed to $40,000 in America, why pay the extra? They would much rather travel there and get treated.
 
Originally posted by: raildogg
outsourcing :thumbsup:

If they can get it done for less, what is the problem.

Also, many patients are outsourcing themselves to India and other countries. When they can get treatment for $5,000 as opposed to $40,000 in America, why pay the extra? They would much rather travel there and get treated.

The problem is that Americans need good jobs too. You can't have a nation of people flipping burgers for each other.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
I support outsourcing...

I don't and won't. If companies want to automate it to keep as many jobs here as possible including the US plants staying open, fine. Send it to cheap labor outside the US....fvck them.
 
America has tons of good jobs...actually, the BEST jobs are there; this will be maintained with superior education programs and instiutions.
 
I don't have a problem with outsourcing as long as it's not extreme. I feel that it currently is not extreme. One big plus I see with it is that it is helping developing countries. I also feel that it's natural for companies to have operations in areas of increasing importance. They no longer completely rely upon the US market.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
America has tons of good jobs...actually, the BEST jobs are there; this will be maintained with superior education programs and instiutions.

Hence why China, Japan and India are overtaking the US in science and engineering. Also why "white collar" jobs are also being offshored.
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Stunt
I support outsourcing...
I don't and won't. If companies want to automate it to keep as many jobs here as possible including the US plants staying open, fine. Send it to cheap labor outside the US....fvck them.
You'd rather a dark factory over employment and standard of living for the other 66% of the world's population?

How selfish.

You are lucky to have been born into America.
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Stunt
America has tons of good jobs...actually, the BEST jobs are there; this will be maintained with superior education programs and instiutions.

Hence why China, Japan and India are overtaking the US in science and engineering. Also why "white collar" jobs are also being offshored.

There have been articles lately talking about how CS and engineering schools aren't seeing the enrollment they used to... offshoring is a big contributor. Why go through all that difficult schooling if you'll just end up flipping burgers when you get out anyway? Thus the downward spiral continues.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Stunt
I support outsourcing...
I don't and won't. If companies want to automate it to keep as many jobs here as possible including the US plants staying open, fine. Send it to cheap labor outside the US....fvck them.
You'd rather a dark factory over employment and standard of living for the other 66% of the world's population?

How selfish.

You are lucky to have been born into America.

Yes I am (both lucky and selfish for my fellow American workers). Do you think that those jobs are being sent to other countries out of "compassion"? Pure greed and profit from cheap and sometimes slave-like labor. Pure BS.
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Stunt
America has tons of good jobs...actually, the BEST jobs are there; this will be maintained with superior education programs and instiutions.
Hence why China, Japan and India are overtaking the US in science and engineering. Also why "white collar" jobs are also being offshored.
It's called competitive advantage.
If you cannot compete...you are destined to fail.
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Stunt
I support outsourcing...
I don't and won't. If companies want to automate it to keep as many jobs here as possible including the US plants staying open, fine. Send it to cheap labor outside the US....fvck them.
You'd rather a dark factory over employment and standard of living for the other 66% of the world's population?

How selfish.

You are lucky to have been born into America.
Yes I am (both lucky and selfish for my fellow American workers). Do you think that those jobs are being sent to other countries out of "compassion"? Pure greed and profit from cheap and sometimes slave-like labor. Pure BS.

To borrow a concept from the movie ?The Corporation?, the bread maker does not work to feed people, but to earn money to feed his own family. Similarly with outsourcing, companies are there for financial reasons, but in the end benefits the 3rd world more than any other form of aid ever could.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Stunt
I support outsourcing...
I don't and won't. If companies want to automate it to keep as many jobs here as possible including the US plants staying open, fine. Send it to cheap labor outside the US....fvck them.
You'd rather a dark factory over employment and standard of living for the other 66% of the world's population?

How selfish.

You are lucky to have been born into America.

As an American, I have a right and a duty to be concerned when my fellow citizens are losing their livelyhood. The Chinese are very good at taking care of the Chinese people. We should emulate them in that regard.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
America has tons of good jobs...actually, the BEST jobs are there; this will be maintained with superior education programs and instiutions.


Superior education programs and institutions? Superior to who? India? Japan? Ever read the newspaper?
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Stunt
America has tons of good jobs...actually, the BEST jobs are there; this will be maintained with superior education programs and instiutions.
Hence why China, Japan and India are overtaking the US in science and engineering. Also why "white collar" jobs are also being offshored.
It's called competitive advantage.
If you cannot compete...you are destined to fail.

Well, let them catch up on their own instead of us lowering ourselves to their level. McService Jobs, here we come! :roll:

(we've had this discussion before. I've fought for years to keep jobs here as I watch them ship by the thousands to Mexico and people who've worked hard for a decent (not huge) wage be dumped like garbage. My company is doing it every single day. We've actually gotten to the point that automation is taking jobs back from Mexico...which is fantastic! )

I would rather use our innovation and engineering side (automation, etc) to get the world competitive advantage. Mexican labor, Chinese labor, Indian Labor - isn't free and shipping isn't cheap. After initial automation costs, labor is esentally free and quality typically is much better as the process is repeatable. Also, closer to point shipping makes a huge difference)
 
Originally posted by: Stunt

To borrow a concept from the movie ?The Corporation?, the bread maker does not work to feed people, but to earn money to feed his own family. Similarly with outsourcing, companies are there for financial reasons, but in the end benefits the 3rd world more than any other form of aid ever could.

:thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Stunt
I support outsourcing...
I don't and won't. If companies want to automate it to keep as many jobs here as possible including the US plants staying open, fine. Send it to cheap labor outside the US....fvck them.
You'd rather a dark factory over employment and standard of living for the other 66% of the world's population?

How selfish.

You are lucky to have been born into America.
As an American, I have a right and a duty to be concerned when my fellow citizens are losing their livelyhood. The Chinese are very good at taking care of the Chinese people. We should emulate them in that regard.
1)Your fellow citizens are not losing their livelihood.
2)If you don't care for anyone other than your own citizens, block aid, relief and peace-keeping.

If you are going to be selfish and ignorant to one issue; why not all isues.
 
Originally posted by: Engineer

(we've had this discussion before. I've fought for years to keep jobs here as I watch them ship by the thousands to Mexico and people who've worked hard for a decent (not huge) wage be dumped like garbage. My company is doing it every single day. We've actually gotten to the point that automation is taking jobs back from Mexico...which is fantastic! )

Automation kicks ass. Even if the factory jobs go away, someone still needs to design and maintain the automation machinery. :thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by: sygyzy
Originally posted by: Stunt
America has tons of good jobs...actually, the BEST jobs are there; this will be maintained with superior education programs and instiutions.
Superior education programs and institutions? Superior to who? India? Japan? Ever read the newspaper?
What newspaper is this?

US has the best education systems in the world...
Europe and Asia is lagging significantly.
 
Originally posted by: EatSpam

As an American, I have a right and a duty to be concerned when my fellow citizens are losing their livelyhood. The Chinese are very good at taking care of the Chinese people. We should emulate them in that regard.

lol... You care about engineers? Most engineers are moderate-to-conservative. No, I think that you care more about politics than people.
 
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Originally posted by: Engineer

(we've had this discussion before. I've fought for years to keep jobs here as I watch them ship by the thousands to Mexico and people who've worked hard for a decent (not huge) wage be dumped like garbage. My company is doing it every single day. We've actually gotten to the point that automation is taking jobs back from Mexico...which is fantastic! )

Automation kicks ass. Even if the factory jobs go away, someone still needs to design and maintain the automation machinery. :thumbsup:

Not to mention engineers, plant managers, a few production workers, the plant itself contributing to the local community. :thumbsup: indeed.

P.S. I'm an Electrical Engineer specializing in automation and controls.
 
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Originally posted by: Engineer

(we've had this discussion before. I've fought for years to keep jobs here as I watch them ship by the thousands to Mexico and people who've worked hard for a decent (not huge) wage be dumped like garbage. My company is doing it every single day. We've actually gotten to the point that automation is taking jobs back from Mexico...which is fantastic! )
Automation kicks ass. Even if the factory jobs go away, someone still needs to design and maintain the automation machinery. :thumbsup:
Uh huh...every look at germany.

They wasted their time automating and restricting economic growth and trade.
Economics always wins, no matter how much you try to force it.
 
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