Why is there controversy over Atkins?

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: yukichigai
I'm at work: I can't pull medical case history out of my ass. But like I said, I've met someone who got hit with kidney failure because of the diet. If you really want I can bug that nutritionist sometime and get some links.

And you are certain that this one person's kidney issues were directly caused by too much water going through the renal system? This person had no pre-existing conditions or dispositions to kidney problems?

Even just assuming that this person had no prior issues, you can't conclusively say (based on ONE person) that a low carb diet causes kidney failure. One couldn't know if this person was destined to have kidney issues, no matter what their diet was.

Obviously, there are thousands upon thousands of others who have had no problems whatsoever.

I personally enjoyed his hypothesis that the first 10lbs of weight loss is water. Given 10lbs of weight loss that is over a gallon of water. The body needs 1/2 gallon of water per day with death from dehydration at occuring after 3 days or approximately 1.5 gallons of water loss. So on Atkins you are obviously severely dehydrated and hours away from death! :beer:

Ack! :Q *drinks another glass of water*

 

[yukichigai]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: yukichigai
I'm at work: I can't pull medical case history out of my ass. But like I said, I've met someone who got hit with kidney failure because of the diet. If you really want I can bug that nutritionist sometime and get some links.

And you are certain that this one person's kidney issues were directly caused by too much water going through the renal system? This person had no pre-existing conditions or dispositions to kidney problems?

Even just assuming that this person had no prior issues, you can't conclusively say (based on ONE person) that a low carb diet causes kidney failure. One couldn't know if this person was destined to have kidney issues, no matter what their diet was.

Obviously, there are thousands upon thousands of others who have had no problems whatsoever.

I personally enjoyed his hypothesis that the first 10lbs of weight loss is water. Given 10lbs of weight loss that is over a gallon of water. The body needs 1/2 gallon of water per day with death from dehydration at occuring after 3 days or approximately 1.5 gallons of water loss. So on Atkins you are obviously severely dehydrated and hours away from death! :beer:

First off, I never said the first 10 pounds, I said the majority of initial weight loss. Secondly, ahem...

Finally, unless you are extremely metabolically resistant, you will start losing considerable weight during Induction. The amount and rate at which you lose can vary dramatically depending upon your age, level of activity, whether you are taking hormones or other drugs, your degree of metabolic resistance and other factors. The median weight loss from two weeks doing Induction is 10 pounds for overweight males and six pounds for overweight females. But do understand this: On any weight-loss program, the first weight lost is water weight. Atkins is a particularly effective diuretic, so the water weight tends to come off fast. But be assured that after four to five days, the pounds that come off are primarily fat. (Link)

Also keep in mind it doesn't say you stop losing water weight after the first 4 or 5 days, just that you lose more fat than water.

 

[Crazymofo]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: Crazymofo
Looking around at all the negitive comments on here really explains why America is the fatest country on the planet!!!!!!!!!!!

The Atkins diet is far from the savior of America being the supposed fatest country. It is the crap people eat and the pure laziness of people.

I think his point was that many people have found a method that works great for them... But then they are surrounded by naysayers, as evidenced by any thread on ATOT where someone is considering Atkins.

I feel that one reason this is so, is because it is human nature (at least in this culture) not to want someone else to succeed where they have failed.

Thanks once again Wingznut! I'm just really sick of people telling me that I'm hurting my body with this diet... like I was really doing my body a favor when I was ingesting gallons of Mt dew a day or a whole pizza for dinner... This diet has changed my life style so much so that I no longer crave food when I'm upset... This diet has cured my problem with laziness and mood swings... I was hypoglycemic and didn't know it until I started this diet! Now I'm a happy person with a much better outlook on life!

To the peeps who say there are no known long-term studies i say BS. Dr. Atkins studied this diet for 30 years and he was on lifetime maintenance for that entire time and had no adverse health problems... He watched countless people drop the weight and keep it off with no sign of kidney problems.

and people who think they can go through life without exercising are complete idiots!

 

[Riprorin]

Water loss or fat loss, you be the judge.

Before and after pics taken about 7 weeks apart

 

[Crazymofo]

Rip man I'm jealous... I've got prolly two more months of hard work before i'll look as good as the afer picture... Good work!!!

 

[Riprorin]

Thanks! Keep working at it and don't let the naysayers get you down!

 

[Chaotic42]

I just have to tip my hat to those on Atkins. I could *never* make it though induction. Carbohydrates are about 90% of my diet.

Viva la CHO!

 

[XMan]

This is all I have to say to you assholes who think Atkins is not "hard work."

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Why is there controversy over Atkins?

Simple. (1) There is still no good scientific data to prove that it actually offers any benefit over known helpful weightloss strategies and (2) there is a likelihood of serious long-term medical problems as a result of subjecting your body to long-term starvation.

Starvation??? What the hell are you talking about?

If there's one nutritional plan where you DON'T starve yourself, it's the low carb plan.


(Where do you people get this stuff???)

Atkin's diet induces a starvation state of ketosis. That's the basic principle. Read a little.

PS - Where I get this stuff is the medical literature. I'm a physician. Peace.

Just out of curiosity, how much training did you get in nutrition in med school?

We get a load of training in biochemistry and human physiology. Probably more than Dr. Atkins did during his training what 30 years ago? Specific nutritional training is relative ancillary in medical school and picked up clinically.

 

[Riprorin]

I think he was in his 70s when died so he probably went to medical school at least 30 years ago.

Can you direct me to a study or studies that demonstrate that ketogenic diets are unhealthy? The studies that I've seen suggest the opposite.

p.s. I'm curious why you think that the Atkins diet is "long term starvation"? If you are refering to the induction phase where carbs are limited to <20 g/day, Dr. Atkins states in his book "Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution", "Induction is only the first phase- the way you get the weight loss ball rolling - not he whole Atkins nutrional approach".

Are you familliar with the whole approach or is your understanding of the Atkins diet limited to induction?

 

[tokamak]

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: tokamak
what i want to know is where the hell did this Atkins stuff come from? i hadn't even heard of it like 2 weeks ago, now i can't stop hearing about it. i work in a restaurant and every other woman that comes in is all *im on atkins what do you have that i can eat blah blah blah*....

It was a diet/eating plan developed in the 1970's by Dr. Atkins.

ok...so...um...why has it become such a hot news item in the past month or so?

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: tokamak

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: tokamak
what i want to know is where the hell did this Atkins stuff come from? i hadn't even heard of it like 2 weeks ago, now i can't stop hearing about it. i work in a restaurant and every other woman that comes in is all *im on atkins what do you have that i can eat blah blah blah*....

It was a diet/eating plan developed in the 1970's by Dr. Atkins.

ok...so...um...why has it become such a hot news item in the past month or so?

(SOME) people are starting to realize that it's a very valid/healthy nutritional plan, and that the misconceptions are just that... Misconceptions.

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: tokamak

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: tokamak
what i want to know is where the hell did this Atkins stuff come from? i hadn't even heard of it like 2 weeks ago, now i can't stop hearing about it. i work in a restaurant and every other woman that comes in is all *im on atkins what do you have that i can eat blah blah blah*....

It was a diet/eating plan developed in the 1970's by Dr. Atkins.

ok...so...um...why has it become such a hot news item in the past month or so?

1.) because he died
2.) because there were some New England Journal of Medicine articles about the diet which came out about a month ago which showed equivocal efficacy of the diet in morbidly obese patients. However, those studies were aggregiously underpowered even to show their equivocal results.

 

[Riprorin]

Doc. I lost 20 lbs in 6 weeks eating the diet below. I've maintained my target weight (5'8", 153 lbs) by bumping up the quantity of food I eat at dinner and snacking more.

Breakfast: 1/2 Fiber 1 Cereal or Oatmeal, 1/2 cup soy milk, 1/2 cup fruit (berries or melon)

Lunch: Spinach salad with turkey and ham strips and blue cheese dressing, apple with peanut butter (oil on top)

Dinner: Meat (principally chicken but also beef, lamb and pork), fish, or tofu, vegetable (Zucchini, broccoli, eggplant, green beans), and fruit (melon, grapefruit, berries), cheese, yougurt.

I snack on nuts (pecans, almonds, pistacchio).

I eat no refined sugar, no white flour, and a very limited amount of bread and pasta. I don't eat any junk food or baked goods.

From my reading of Atkins, I'm on the Atkins diet.

Are you suggesting this diet puts me at risk for long term health problems?

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I think he was in his 70s when died so he probably went to medical school at least 30 years ago.

Can you direct me to a study or studies that demonstrate that ketogenic diets are unhealthy? The studies that I've seen suggest the opposite.

No. But neither can I direct you to a study showing that drinking molten lava is unhealthy either. When a new medical device, intervention or medication is proposed by a researcher, it is not the responsibility of the medical community to fund research to prove that it does not cause harm. The assumption is that it does until the researcher adequately proves otherwise. Also, please reference your studies if you expect statements like that to be given due consideration. (Please make sure that they are studies published in peer reviewed medical journals that are randomized, prospective, double-blinded, placebo/control and sufficiently powered to prove absence of harm - that is the standard in the medical community for acceptance of new therapies. Anecdotal reports are not considered adequate scientific evidence, and they comprise the entirety of Atkins' "proof" in his popular-press publications.)

p.s. I'm curious why you think that the Atkins diet is "long term starvation"? If you are refering to the induction phase where carbs are limited to <20 g/day, Dr. Atkins states in his book "Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution", "Induction is only the first phase- the way you get the weight loss ball rolling - not he whole Atkins nutrional approach".

Are you familliar with the whole approach or is your understanding of the Atkins diet limited to induction?

Well perhaps it is not radical starvation (which is knownto be harmful), but the entire premise is to trick the body into a state of starvation (read: ketogenesis) and thereby catabolize fat stores. The diet is effective in this regard because the body perveives any level of carbohydrate deficiency to represent a fasting state (read: starvation).

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Doc. I lost 20 lbs in 6 weeks eating the diet below. I've maintained my target weight (5'8", 153 lbs) by bumping up the quantity of food I eat at dinner and snacking more.

Breakfast: 1/2 Fiber 1 Cereal or Oatmeal, 1/2 cup soy milk, 1/2 cup fruit (berries or melon)

Lunch: Spinach salad with turkey and ham strips and blue cheese dressing, apple with peanut butter (oil on top)

Dinner: Meat (principally chicken but also beef, lamb and pork), fish, or tofu, vegetable (Zucchini, broccoli, eggplant, green beans), and fruit (melon, grapefruit, berries), cheese, yougurt.

I snack on nuts (pecans, almonds, pistacchio).

I eat no refined sugar, no white flour, and a very limited amount of bread and pasta. I don't eat any junk food or baked goods.

From my reading of Atkins, I'm on the Atkins diet.

Are you suggesting this diet puts me at risk for long term health problems?

See my above post regarding anecdotal evidence. BTW, glad it worked for you. As far as long term health problems, no one knows. That's the issue. Just realize that you are subjecting yourself to a very uncontrolled research experiment. I recognize that for some people it may be worth that risk in order to lose the weight.

If Phizer were to release a new weight loss pill tomorrow that had not been adequately tested for safety or efficacy would you sign up to take it? Not knowing if it might cause cancer, or heart disease, or liver failure, or strokes? That's kinda like what you are doing. There are pharmaceuticals that go through the rigorous FDA testing process and >10 years of scrutiny that subsequently wind up getting pulled off the market for harmful effects that were not found (e.g. Baychol).

 

[Riprorin]

Forgot to mention that I'm supplementing as follows:

1 Men's One-a-day multivitamin
2 Fish oil pills
2 Glucosamine/chondroytin tablets
1 Calcium tablet
1 81 mg aspirin

20 g of protein (Whey protein) in morning and evening.

As far as excercise, I run 3 - 5 miles/day. Lift weights every other day, and do push-ups, crunches, stretching everyday.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

We get a load of training in biochemistry and human physiology. Probably more than Dr. Atkins did during his training what 30 years ago? Specific nutritional training is relative ancillary in medical school and picked up clinically.

And like all doctors you took one class in a subject and are now an expert! :beer:

 

[The Sauce]

Yup, just like Atkins.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Yup, just like Atkins.

Yup so all we have to do is decide between the guy with a class in the subject and the guy with over 30 years of clinical experience. :beer:

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Yup, just like Atkins.

Yup so all we have to do is decide between the guy with a class in the subject and the guy with over 30 years of clinical experience. :beer:

Yup, decide between trusting either the medical community who has nothing to gain and is giving essentially free advice, and a guy who has a publicity agent, is a multi-millionaire from selling books, marketing name-brand vitamins, supplements, diet aids, protein bars, protein shakes, exercise paraphenalia, making TV appearances and charging thousands of dollars for office visits for diet consultations (I know, my mom went to see him in NYC) - and has not even done the research to assess the efficacy or potential hazards of his therapy. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Good choice.

PS - I give up.

 

[blakeatwork]

I don't know why the vast majority of people need someone to tell them what to eat... Common sense says, exercise (in moderation), eat healthy foods (in moderation), and drink plenty of water, which seems to be the keystone of almost every diet plan out there. For myself, I find that exercise is the best solution for toning up and shedding a few pounds. Combined with sensible eating (limiting the amount of overly-fatty foods like take-out or snack foods), and not having pasta/potatoes every night, I find I'll drop pounds like crazy after a couple of weeks..

It's all about common sense... some people are just to stupid to understand that McDonald's every night just isn't healthy...

Ahh well, they're problem, not mine..

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Yup, just like Atkins.

Yup so all we have to do is decide between the guy with a class in the subject and the guy with over 30 years of clinical experience. :beer:

Yup, decide between trusting either the medical community who has nothing to gain and is giving essentially free advice, and a guy who has a publicity agent, is a multi-millionaire from selling books, marketing name-brand vitamins, supplements, diet aids, protein bars, protein shakes, exercise paraphenalia, making TV appearances and charging thousands of dollars for office visits for diet consultations (I know, my mom went to see him in NYC) - and has not even done the research to assess the efficacy or potential hazards of his therapy. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Good choice.

PS - I give up.

Thanks for giving up so easy! The real question is do you trust the man you described who has an agenda or do you trust the medical community that has no real idea of what we should actually be eating. Current dietary guidelines are not based on any form of research that has studied the cause and effects of different dietary guidelines other than studying the effects of the addition or subtraction of various elements to widely varying diets. To date there has been no real study of any diet, either low fat or low carb or any of the Fad diets that studies the long term consquences and effectiveness. This includes the long term health of the recommended diet by the federal government.

You have intentionally described a low carb diet as Starvation because you are consuming fat stores. By that defention any diet that results in weight loss through the loss of Fat stores is a starvation diet and should be avoided. To me this is an accurate depection of your bias in the matter because this diet does go against conventional wisdom. The problem is that conventional wisdom is not always right and can be shown to be drastically wrong. Because of the popularity of Atkins and similar diets and the fact that they DO work in helping people lose weight the government has finally agreed to fund two studies into the effects and efficiency of both a low carb diet and a low fat diet.

Until their is concrete scientific evidence backing even a single dietary guidline then everything else is speculation. Currently the only studies I'm aware of that are relevant to this discussion is Saturated fat in the average american diet is bad for you, high fiber is good for you, and vegtables are good for you. Nothing else on broad dietary guidelines has been shown to be scientificaly true even the "conventional wisdom". As a result people must turn to "what works" in the abscense of actual scientific data.

Do not fall into the trap that "conventional wisdom" is right. Conventional wisdom said stomach ulcers we caused by stress until a bacterial parasite was identified as the cause. Until there is valid scientific proof about dietary guidelines NO ONE really knows what people should eat or even if there are general guidelines for everyone.

 

[Arkitech]

I have NEVER seen so many ignorant replies in one post than this one. How can you possibly debate a subject that you have'nt even taken the time to research?

 

[Meldryn]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Yup, just like Atkins.

Yup so all we have to do is decide between the guy with a class in the subject and the guy with over 30 years of clinical experience. :beer:

Yup, decide between trusting either the medical community who has nothing to gain and is giving essentially free advice, and a guy who has a publicity agent, is a multi-millionaire from selling books, marketing name-brand vitamins, supplements, diet aids, protein bars, protein shakes, exercise paraphenalia, making TV appearances and charging thousands of dollars for office visits for diet consultations (I know, my mom went to see him in NYC) - and has not even done the research to assess the efficacy or potential hazards of his therapy. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Good choice.

PS - I give up.

How naive of you to think that the medical community doesnt have an agenda... of course there are a lot of "good" doctors out there, just saying...

*Agrees with arkitech*