Why is there controversy over Atkins?

[Blackened]

Originally posted by: DaiShan
Oh, I almost forgot, just because you are skinny does not mean you are healthy. I have a friend that is a runner, and literally he eats 1 pound of bacon a day, every day. Also for snacks sometimes he will just fry up some hamburger meat and eat it straight out of the pan. Yes he is very skinny, will he live past 35? Nope. Saturated fat and cholesterol have this tendency to build up in your arteries causing them to harden and to shrink slowing effective blood flow to a crawl. Red meat is notorious for saturated fat content as is pork, which according to atkins are acceptable ways to lose weight. If you really want to lose weight do it by diet and excercise. Watch your caloric intake as well as that of saturated fat and cholesterol, make sure caloires out > calories in and you will lose weight, guaranteed.

Calories in and out is such an antiquated way of thinking and has been proven wrong time and time again in studies-
Calories matter, but it is not the only thing that matters by a long shot!
I'm no fan of atkins, but if you take one person that eats a well rounded diet versus one that
eats nothing but ice cream and donuts...caloric intake is the same, will they both have the
same body composition after doing this diet for 12 weeks?

NO!

Because the latter will have consistently high levels of blood glucose and insulin, which not only makes
it IMPOSSIBLE to burn fat, but makes it more likely to store it! Not to mention having constant
high levels of insulin will lead to insulin resistance, or worse, diabetes.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: glugglug

Grapefruits are high carbs. Fairly sure they have more than bananas.

I bet 20 years from now there will be tons of stories about people who fvcked themselves up royally on Atkins. My theory on why its accepted as much as it is that starving the brain of the glucose it needs gives some people a buzz.

Grapefruits have approximately 8g CHO per 100g whereas bananas have approximately 23g CHO per 100g.

That plus the potassium and low acidity make them ideal for an early morning breakfast before morning practice, plus they are light so you won't puke them up. Unlike a steak on the otherhand...

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: DaiShan

Originally posted by: royaldank
Most people are uneducated on the subject. They believe everything the school system told them about the food pyramid and balaced diets.

Ah yes totally uneducated. The major problem beyond the ketosis thing is the saturated fat intake, but I suppose you have indisputable evidence to negate the years of studies that have linked diets high in saturated fat to arterial clogging and eventual heart failure? See everyone that out right defends the diet only looks at the short term, yes sugars are high in calories hence dropping them from your diet will cut a significat source of calories, and you probably will lose weight, but it is not a good policy to eat a diet mostly of meat, because as soon as you stop with the carb cutting you will gain it back just as fast, never mind the fact that you have done damage to your arteries from the buildup.

Ok, here's the problem with the "years of studies"...

They were all done by adding saturated fat to the "food pyramid" and/or typical diets. Yes, if you add fats to the diet already high in carbs, sugars, and refined flours... Then there can be problems.

Now, there are very few studies done with a high fat/low carb diets, but they show that the body burns the fats since it doesn't have the simple carbs. Thus, the fat is not stored.

 

[rpberry123]

Originally posted by: yukichigai

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: yukichigai
The key problem with the Atkins diet isn't the glucose/sugar thing really, so much as the effect it has on your renal system. (Kidneys, bladder, etc.) The Atkins diet initiates a state of Ketosis, which means you start to get rid of a lot of water. A good deal of the weight you lose in the first few weeks is water weight. The problem with this is that it taxes your kidneys pretty hard, possibly leading to renal (kidney) failure.

I believe there were a couple of cases where people with pre-existing kidney conditions had complications. But I have yet to find a single example of anyone on a low carb diet suffering from renal problems caused by this nutritional plan. If you happen to have any (factual) findings, please direct me towards them, as I have yet to see them.

Oh btw, if done properly, you intake enough water to keep up.

Dehydration is not what causes renal failure, though it can hurt you otherwise. What starts impacting your kidneys is how much they have to work to filter all the fluid your body is draining. Some people have kidneys that can keep up at that rate, but other folks don't. But you're right, perhaps saying kidney failure was misleading. With most people it's doubtful that it will cause your kidneys to fail unless you do it for an extended period of time, but it can still damage your kidneys while you're undergoing ketosis. Since there are other things that can damage your kidneys or aggrivate existing kidney damage it may not be what does your renal system in, but it'll have played a part, potentially a large one.

Personally, I think you are at higher risk for renal failure drinking nasty San Diego tap water,,,,,
Lines your bladder with concrete.....

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Why is there controversy over Atkins?

Simple. (1) There is still no good scientific data to prove that it actually offers any benefit over known helpful weightloss strategies and (2) there is a likelihood of serious long-term medical problems as a result of subjecting your body to long-term starvation.

Starvation??? What the hell are you talking about?

If there's one nutritional plan where you DON'T starve yourself, it's the low carb plan.


(Where do you people get this stuff???)

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Why is there controversy over Atkins?

Simple. (1) There is still no good scientific data to prove that it actually offers any benefit over known helpful weightloss strategies and (2) there is a likelihood of serious long-term medical problems as a result of subjecting your body to long-term starvation.

Starvation??? What the hell are you talking about?

If there's one nutritional plan where you DON'T starve yourself, it's the low carb plan.


(Where do you people get this stuff???)

Atkin's diet induces a starvation state of ketosis. That's the basic principle. Read a little.

PS - Where I get this stuff is the medical literature. I'm a physician. Peace.

 

[isekii]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Why is there controversy over Atkins?

Simple. (1) There is still no good scientific data to prove that it actually offers any benefit over known helpful weightloss strategies and (2) there is a likelihood of serious long-term medical problems as a result of subjecting your body to long-term starvation.

Starvation??? What the hell are you talking about?

If there's one nutritional plan where you DON'T starve yourself, it's the low carb plan.


(Where do you people get this stuff???)

, you do get to eat on the Atkins diet and you don't subject yourself to starvation.

I don't think limiting yourself to carbs is starving yourself.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Atkin's diet induces a starvation state of ketosis. That's the basic principle. Read a little.

PS - Where I get this stuff is the medical literature. I'm a physician. Peace.

Oh, so you aren't saying that people following Atkins are TRULY starving. Just that because of the lack of carbs to burn, the body turns to fat.

And what exactly is bad about that? (Sounds pretty reasonable to me.)

 

[DaiShan]

Sigh the fanboys are coming out of the woodwork, you can't change a fanatics mind, it is impossible, I've long since learned that ignorance is bliss have fun with atkins, good luck to you really, However - be aware that there is just no substitute to hard work, you all speak of a lifestyle change, yet are unwilling to do the hard work, then you say it is part of the diet, well being that most people are looking for the quick fix, which I assume is the initial appeal of this diet, what does that tell you? You don't need some scatter brained idea to lose weight, after you come in from a long run (or swim, which I prefer heh) don't go eat a candy bar, it is very simple, you want to lose the weight? Give your body a chance to finish burning the fat. These are all sound principles which you cannot dispute intelligently why you would want to deviate from them on such a controversial diet is beyond me, but to each his own.

*Not speaking for NON-Atkins lifestyles*

 

[ThaPerculator]

Dehydration is not what causes renal failure, though it can hurt you otherwise. What starts impacting your kidneys is how much they have to work to filter all the fluid your body is draining. Some people have kidneys that can keep up at that rate, but other folks don't. But you're right, perhaps saying kidney failure was misleading. With most people it's doubtful that it will cause your kidneys to fail unless you do it for an extended period of time, but it can still damage your kidneys while you're undergoing ketosis. Since there are other things that can damage your kidneys or aggrivate existing kidney damage it may not be what does your renal system in, but it'll have played a part, potentially a large one.

The whole "kidney problem" thing is based on how the extra ketones released in your body increase your uric acid level. I hope I don't break anyone's bubble, but ANYTIME YOU LOSE WEIGHT, IT IS RELEASED IN THE FORM OF KETONES (sign of partially broken down fat cells), THEREFORE, ON ANY DIET, YOUR URIC ACID LEVEL WILL BE HIGH WHILE YOU ARE BREAKING DOWN FAT.

EDIT: btw, people keep confusing Ketosis with Ketoacidosis (which is the bad one). Ketoacidosis is only achieved in states of like massive starvation and whatnot (ie: stranded in the desert for a week without food). Do your reading, kids.

Also, most people actually LOWER their cholesterol on Atkins, (if done correctly). It has something to do with the fact that your blood sugar is generally lower, therefore needing less insulin to be produced from your pancreas, thus letting your body break down fat in place of the carbs that you usually burn.

Also, I have read that your brain only needs 20g of glucose to operate correctly, therefore MAKING THAT POINT COMPLETELY ABSURD BECAUSE OF INDUCTION LETTING YOU HAVE 20G OF CARBS... Also, I have read but forget exactly something about how your body can turn protein into glucose (and its not like it's going to burn your muslce, considering how much protein you consume on this diet...)

People really need to do their research before they assume all this crap. I swear people nowadays are too impatient to read and decipher things for themselves.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: DaiShan
Sigh the fanboys are coming out of the woodwork, you can't change a fanatics mind, it is impossible, I've long since learned that ignorance is bliss have fun with atkins, good luck to you really, However - be aware that there is just no substitute to hard work, you all speak of a lifestyle change, yet are unwilling to do the hard work, then you say it is part of the diet, well being that most people are looking for the quick fix, which I assume is the initial appeal of this diet, what does that tell you? You don't need some scatter brained idea to lose weight, after you come in from a long run (or swim, which I prefer heh) don't go eat a candy bar, it is very simple, you want to lose the weight? Give your body a chance to finish burning the fat. These are all sound principles which you cannot dispute intelligently why you would want to deviate from them on such a controversial diet is beyond me, but to each his own.

*Not speaking for NON-Atkins lifestyles*

Hard work???

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you've never lost a significant amount of weight. It's very difficult to do, and once I am finished, I will look back on it and be incredibly proud of my accomplishment.

Why you think there is no "work" involved... Well, I don't understand that. You do need to exercise, you do need to have a lot of discipline when choosing what and how much to eat.

Don't eat a candy bar after exercise??? Of course I wouldn't dispute that obviously good idea... Nor does the Atkins plan.



Look... Nobody is saying that the Atkins plan is the ONLY way or BEST way to lose weight. It works well for me and countless others. Low fat/low calorie works great for countless others.

 

[Wingznut]

I was thinking just yesterday about the proudest accomplishments in my life... The things I've worked hardest for, and acheived. I've narrowed down the list to:

Raising my two boys... (Take note that I said "raising" and not "having".) Since they are only 9 and 5, this task is still a work in progress.

Changing careers... At the age of 32 (with a mortgage, car payments, wife and kids), I did the work necessary to educate myself (100% on my own) in a completely different field, as to enter a more enjoyable career, with a brighter future. It was a fairly large risk at that time of my life, and surely would've been "safer" to just remain as a well-paid auto mechanic.

Losing weight... I'm about 50% to my goal, so this is still a "work in process", as well. However, changing my lifestyle like this is probably the most difficult thing I've ever done.

I think as my life wraps up, (I sincerely hope) that my sons top the list as my proudest. But as difficult as changing careers was, I think that losing weight (and keeping it off) will be my most difficult accomplishment.

 

[yukichigai]

Originally posted by: ThaPerculator

Dehydration is not what causes renal failure, though it can hurt you otherwise. What starts impacting your kidneys is how much they have to work to filter all the fluid your body is draining. Some people have kidneys that can keep up at that rate, but other folks don't. But you're right, perhaps saying kidney failure was misleading. With most people it's doubtful that it will cause your kidneys to fail unless you do it for an extended period of time, but it can still damage your kidneys while you're undergoing ketosis. Since there are other things that can damage your kidneys or aggrivate existing kidney damage it may not be what does your renal system in, but it'll have played a part, potentially a large one.

The whole "kidney problem" thing is based on how the extra ketones released in your body increase your uric acid level. I hope I don't break anyone's bubble, but ANYTIME YOU LOSE WEIGHT, IT IS RELEASED IN THE FORM OF KETONES (sign of partially broken down fat cells), THEREFORE, ON ANY DIET, YOUR URIC ACID LEVEL WILL BE HIGH WHILE YOU ARE BREAKING DOWN FAT.

The high uric acid level is not the largest factor in the kidney problems. The biggest factor is the sheer volume of fluid your body dumps out through your renal system. Even without ketones in your system the amount of fluid your body drains -- almost a net pound per day -- is enough to work your kidneys a lot harder than they should be.

 

[Entity]

Originally posted by: Wingznut
I was thinking just yesterday about the proudest accomplishments in my life... The things I've worked hardest for, and acheived. I've narrowed down the list to:

Raising my two boys... (Take note that I said "raising" and not "having".) Since they are only 9 and 5, this task is still a work in progress.

Changing careers... At the age of 32 (with a mortgage, car payments, wife and kids), I did the work necessary to educate myself (100% on my own) in a completely different field, as to enter a more enjoyable career, with a brighter future. It was a fairly large risk at that time of my life, and surely would've been "safer" to just remain as a well-paid auto mechanic.

Losing weight... I'm about 50% to my goal, so this is still a "work in process", as well. However, changing my lifestyle like this is probably the most difficult thing I've ever done.

I think as my life wraps up, (I sincerely hope) that my sons top the list as my proudest. But as difficult as changing careers was, I think that losing weight (and keeping it off) will be my most difficult accomplishment.

Congrats, Wingznut.

While I'm not a supporter of the atkins plan per se (my dad has tried it several times, reading the same books as y'all, but has never had the ability to stick with it -- I'm sure it's just not for him), it's cool that it has worked for you. Good luck in the future.

Rob

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: yukichigai

Originally posted by: ThaPerculator

Dehydration is not what causes renal failure, though it can hurt you otherwise. What starts impacting your kidneys is how much they have to work to filter all the fluid your body is draining. Some people have kidneys that can keep up at that rate, but other folks don't. But you're right, perhaps saying kidney failure was misleading. With most people it's doubtful that it will cause your kidneys to fail unless you do it for an extended period of time, but it can still damage your kidneys while you're undergoing ketosis. Since there are other things that can damage your kidneys or aggrivate existing kidney damage it may not be what does your renal system in, but it'll have played a part, potentially a large one.

The whole "kidney problem" thing is based on how the extra ketones released in your body increase your uric acid level. I hope I don't break anyone's bubble, but ANYTIME YOU LOSE WEIGHT, IT IS RELEASED IN THE FORM OF KETONES (sign of partially broken down fat cells), THEREFORE, ON ANY DIET, YOUR URIC ACID LEVEL WILL BE HIGH WHILE YOU ARE BREAKING DOWN FAT.

The high uric acid level is not the largest factor in the kidney problems. The biggest factor is the sheer volume of fluid your body dumps out through your renal system. Even without ketones in your system the amount of fluid your body drains -- almost a net pound per day -- is enough to work your kidneys a lot harder than they should be.

The Atkins plan recommends 8 full glasses of water per day. I don't believe this is any different than any other nutritional plan. Are you really running more water through your renal system on this plan?

Yes, you do lose water at the beginning. But after a few days, it balances out.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Entity

Originally posted by: Wingznut
I was thinking just yesterday about the proudest accomplishments in my life... The things I've worked hardest for, and acheived. I've narrowed down the list to:

Raising my two boys... (Take note that I said "raising" and not "having".) Since they are only 9 and 5, this task is still a work in progress.

Changing careers... At the age of 32 (with a mortgage, car payments, wife and kids), I did the work necessary to educate myself (100% on my own) in a completely different field, as to enter a more enjoyable career, with a brighter future. It was a fairly large risk at that time of my life, and surely would've been "safer" to just remain as a well-paid auto mechanic.

Losing weight... I'm about 50% to my goal, so this is still a "work in process", as well. However, changing my lifestyle like this is probably the most difficult thing I've ever done.

I think as my life wraps up, (I sincerely hope) that my sons top the list as my proudest. But as difficult as changing careers was, I think that losing weight (and keeping it off) will be my most difficult accomplishment.

Congrats, Wingznut.

While I'm not a supporter of the atkins plan per se (my dad has tried it several times, reading the same books as y'all, but has never had the ability to stick with it -- I'm sure it's just not for him), it's cool that it has worked for you. Good luck in the future.

Rob

Thanks, Rob!

No, the Atkins plan isn't for everyone. Neither is the "food pyramid", low fat, low calorie, BFL, etc... Or any other nutritional plan. No one plan is perfect for EVERYONE.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DaiShan

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Some fruits are lower in carbs that others. The lower carb fruits should be eaten regularly and the higer carb fruits should be eaten occasionally.

Personally, I eat a lot of apples, strawberries, blueberries, melons, nectarines, grapefruits and peaches and avoid high carb fruits like bananas.

Not an athlete eh?

Not a professional one, but I'm pretty athletic. I run 3 - 5 miles/day, lift weights, do push-ups, etc.

What's the connection between the fruits I eat and my athletic prowess?

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Why is there controversy over Atkins?

Simple. (1) There is still no good scientific data to prove that it actually offers any benefit over known helpful weightloss strategies and (2) there is a likelihood of serious long-term medical problems as a result of subjecting your body to long-term starvation.

Starvation??? What the hell are you talking about?

If there's one nutritional plan where you DON'T starve yourself, it's the low carb plan.


(Where do you people get this stuff???)

Atkin's diet induces a starvation state of ketosis. That's the basic principle. Read a little.

PS - Where I get this stuff is the medical literature. I'm a physician. Peace.

Just out of curiosity, how much training did you get in nutrition in med school?

 

[Riprorin]

 

[yukichigai]

Originally posted by: Wingznut
The Atkins plan recommends 8 full glasses of water per day. I don't believe this is any different than any other nutritional plan. Are you really running more water through your renal system on this plan?

Yes, you do lose water at the beginning. But after a few days, it balances out.

Considering you are still losing water weight even if you drink that much water I would say yes, it flushes more fluids through your system. The added ketones don't help much either.

 

[Blackened]

Originally posted by: DaiShan
Sigh the fanboys are coming out of the woodwork, you can't change a fanatics mind, it is impossible, I've long since learned that ignorance is bliss have fun with atkins, good luck to you really, However - be aware that there is just no substitute to hard work, you all speak of a lifestyle change, yet are unwilling to do the hard work, then you say it is part of the diet, well being that most people are looking for the quick fix, which I assume is the initial appeal of this diet, what does that tell you? You don't need some scatter brained idea to lose weight, after you come in from a long run (or swim, which I prefer heh) don't go eat a candy bar, it is very simple, you want to lose the weight? Give your body a chance to finish burning the fat. These are all sound principles which you cannot dispute intelligently why you would want to deviate from them on such a controversial diet is beyond me, but to each his own.

*Not speaking for NON-Atkins lifestyles*

Look, i'm not a fan of atkins as I mentioned earlier, but you're being ignorant in your own right by
discrediting it. Atkins *works* because it drastically lowers blood glucose levels and puts
the body into the optimal "fat burning zone" - as well, it improves cholesterol due to not having
chronic high insulin levels that high carb diets tend to have.

I don't like atkins because it seems a bit extreme and unnecessary - most people do not need to
eliminate carbs for any amount of time unless they are insulin resistant - the great majority
of people can do fine by avoiding anything with simple carbs/sugars. But the diet works, and
works without complications unless you have a *very serious* pre-existing condition.

 

[Blackened]

The original food pyramid developed by the FDA is a joke - 8-11 servings of bread a day! Gimme a break.

The food pyramid is in drastic need of a COMPLETE overhaul, i'll take atkins over a diet plan based
on the food pyramid any day.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: yukichigai

Originally posted by: Wingznut
The Atkins plan recommends 8 full glasses of water per day. I don't believe this is any different than any other nutritional plan. Are you really running more water through your renal system on this plan?

Yes, you do lose water at the beginning. But after a few days, it balances out.

Considering you are still losing water weight even if you drink that much water I would say yes, it flushes more fluids through your system. The added ketones don't help much either.

So, you are saying that 13 weeks (and 29 lbs) later that I am still losing enough water weight... Not only that, but enough to cause damage to my kidneys?

 

[ThaPerculator]

I'm not a fanboy of Atkins... honestly, when I recently read his book I thought it was 85% preaching, 15% info. If i wanted to be preached to, I'd read L. Ron Hubbard, The Bible, The Koran, etc.

Personally, I come from a Diabetic family (both sides of family are almost all diabetic, most on Insulin-shots daily... my parents are on pills but nto shots yet). I have always been pretty active, I have lifted weights a minimum of 3 times a week (usually 5 days) for the last 4 years, and have a somewhat decent amount of cardio. Because of my parents, we never have had any "junk food" in the house for years, and my diet has consisted mostly of stuff like grilled chicken w/rice, salads, etc. for as long as I can remember. Needless to say, I have been overweight my whole life. I'm not freakin' huge or anything, but I've always had a gut I've wanted to get rid of, but never could. I tried the low-cal/high excercise diet, and have pretty much lived with it for years to no avail. (granted, I would be freakin' huge right now if i wasnt on it for years). Almost a month ago, my brother bet me $50 that I couldn't stay on atkins for two weeks, and well, I've been on it ever since. The closest I ever came to breaking the diet was having a teaspoonful of ice cream after my 2nd week (whoopdie doo... a teaspoonful... was kinda a "reward" thing tho for 2 weeks on it), and after my third week, I had 4 Michelob Ultras, but I didn't eat many carbs at all that day.

Honestly, I am definately sticking to a lower-carb diet long-term. I've already lost just under 20 lbs., and it's only been 3-1/2 weeks. I've lost just over 2 notches on my belt, and I can't wait to lose more. I can see how most people can't stick to this diet for a long time... and that's only because MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE DEDICATION. I know i'm going to be on this or something close to it for a long time, and I definately have the motivation/willpower to keep on it.

Out of a different topic (had massive stomach pain a couple weeks b4 starting atkins), I had a physical/blood/urine test before I was on the diet, and then I had one last week. y cholesterol was actually a few points lower than before, when my doc asked me how I lost so much weight so fast I told him what I was doing, and he said that so far everything (including my kidneys) was great. My blood sugar completely leveled off, and my Doc commended me on it. He told me that whatever I was doing, it seems like it was only beneficial to me.

Personally, after seeing these results, and after talking with my doc and him telling me to keep doing what i'm doing different, I have no reason not to stick on it.

 

[yukichigai]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: yukichigai

Originally posted by: Wingznut
The Atkins plan recommends 8 full glasses of water per day. I don't believe this is any different than any other nutritional plan. Are you really running more water through your renal system on this plan?

Yes, you do lose water at the beginning. But after a few days, it balances out.

Considering you are still losing water weight even if you drink that much water I would say yes, it flushes more fluids through your system. The added ketones don't help much either.

So, you are saying that 13 weeks (and 29 lbs) later that I am still losing enough water weight... Not only that, but enough to cause damage to my kidneys?

No, or at least not nearly as much. You aren't in such a drastic state of ketosis at that point compared to the beginning of the plan. It's the first 4 weeks or so that really do the bulk of the damage.