Why is healthcare a "right" now?

[dmcowen674]

The government owns the water rights. If they want they could pump the aquifer dry or slap a meter on your well. In some places they've even tried to charge people for collecting rainwater.

Holy crap, I had no idea this had happened

Well written article by this guy. Is he on here?

7-26-2010

http://www.naturalnews.com/029286_rainwater_collection_water.html

by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger
Editor of NaturalNews.com

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Collecting rainwater now illegal in many states


Many of the freedoms we enjoy here in the U.S. are quickly eroding as the nation transforms from the land of the free into the land of the enslaved, but what I'm about to share with you takes the assault on our freedoms to a whole new level.

Many Western states, including Utah, Washington and Colorado, have long outlawed individuals from collecting rainwater on their own properties because, according to officials, that rain belongs to someone else.

It's illegal in Utah to divert rainwater without a valid water right, and Mark Miller of Mark Miller Toyota, found this out the hard way.

After constructing a large rainwater collection system at his new dealership to use for washing new cars, Miller found out that the project was actually an "unlawful diversion of rainwater." Even though it makes logical conservation sense to collect rainwater for this type of use since rain is scarce in Utah, it's still considered a violation of water rights which apparently belong exclusively to Utah's various government bodies.

"Utah's the second driest state in the nation. Our laws probably ought to catch up with that," explained Miller in response to the state's ridiculous rainwater collection ban.

Douglas County, Colorado, conducted a study on how rainwater collection affects aquifer and groundwater supplies. The study revealed that letting people collect rainwater on their properties actually reduces demand from water facilities and improves conservation.

The study revealed that only about three percent of Douglas County's precipitation ended up in the streams and rivers that are supposedly being robbed from by rainwater collectors. The other 97 percent either evaporated or seeped into the ground to be used by plants.

This hints at why bureaucrats can't really use the argument that collecting rainwater prevents that water from getting to where it was intended to go. So little of it actually makes it to the final destination that virtually every household could collect many rain barrels worth of rainwater and it would have practically no effect on the amount that ends up in streams and rivers.

It's all about control, really

As long as people remain unaware and uninformed about important issues, the government will continue to chip away at the freedoms we enjoy.

Because if we can't even freely collect the rain that falls all around us, then what, exactly, can we freely do? The rainwater issue highlights a serious overall problem in America today: diminishing freedom and increased government control.

Today, we've basically been reprogrammed to think that we need permission from the government to exercise our inalienable rights, when in fact the government is supposed to derive its power from us. The American Republic was designed so that government would serve the People to protect and uphold freedom and liberty. But increasingly, our own government is restricting people from their rights to engage in commonsense, fundamental actions such as collecting rainwater or buying raw milk from the farmer next door.

Today, we are living under a government that has slowly siphoned off our freedoms, only to occasionally grant us back a few limited ones under the pretense that they're doing us a benevolent favor.

Because the same argument that's now being used to restrict rainwater collection could, of course, be used to declare that you have no right to the air you breathe, either. After all, governments could declare that air to be somebody else's air, and then they could charge you an "air tax" or an "air royalty" and demand you pay money for every breath that keeps you alive.

Think it couldn't happen? Just give it time. The government already claims it owns your land and house, effectively. If you really think you own your home, just stop paying property taxes and see how long you still "own" it. Your county or city will seize it and then sell it to pay off your "tax debt." That proves who really owns it in the first place... and it's not you!

Unless we stand up against this tyranny, it will creep upon us, day after day, until we find ourselves totally enslaved by a world of corporate-government collusion where everything of value is owned by powerful corporations -- all enforced at gunpoint by local law enforcement.

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[Craig234]

I have city water because I choose to, just like I have healthcare because I choose, freedom to choose is such a burden for some.

You have city water because people not like you had the government make or sponsor the systems to have it available, regulate its safety, affordably.

 

[wuliheron]

Holy crap, I had no idea this had happened

Well written article by this guy. Is he on here?

That's just right wing clap trap that conveniently ignores the fact that these states have created water markets that sell their water rights. The government doesn't just want control over peoples' rights. They want money and they want control over how the water is distributed in order to encourage its use to generate the most income for the state.

If there were no money to be made they wouldn't give a shit about what you do with your rain water.

 

[dmcowen674]

That's just right wing clap trap that conveniently ignores the fact that these states have created water markets that sell their water rights. The government doesn't just want control over peoples' rights. They want money and they want control over how the water is distributed in order to encourage its use to generate the most income for the state.

If there were no money to be made they wouldn't give a shit about what you do with your rain water.

So there is no money in regulating and taxing breathing yet?

 

[Zebo]

You have city water because people not like you had the government make or sponsor the systems to have it available, regulate its safety, affordably.

Exactly. I'm sure we could track anyone's life here and they would find others "rights" were abrogated to benefit them going all the way back to when rich Indians had their land stolen by impoverished Europeans and given away for free to them.

Fact is no one is Robinson Crusoe no matter what fantasies you have or right wing radio tells you.

 

[alkemyst]

So, you're one of the Americans who own land to drill well on, and one of the minority who have the water there to drill to, and one of the smaller minority whose is safe...

At least you hope it's safe, and remains so (we don't need the pesky government keeping the polluter down the road from polluting it), and there's plenty, etc.

Like I said, supporting an utterly impractical, inefficient policy out of idiotology.

meanwhile, while perhaps his water was safe...his neighbor thinks it's his right to bury his motor oil in his backyard because "fuck them, making me drive it to a recycling vat!".

 

[Craig234]

I just watched a documentary on the privatization of water titled "Flow".

It's tragic to watch. It discussed the two largest water companies, Suez and Vivendi, among others like Nestle.

I didn't have some facts on just how rigged it is - one fact, the IMF chairman's two top aides were the VP's of Suez and Vivendi.

It's estimated the cost to set up clean water for the world is $30 billion. The sales of bottled water annually are $100 billion.

I think the figure was 70 million people are killed by water-borne disease each year, most of them children under 5.

These privatization efforts are forcing the shutdown of local water sources - and reselling the water to people for far higher prices.

As a smaller example in the US, Nestle opened a bottled water factory in Michigan. It said a lot of things about being a 'good citizen' that wouldn't hurt the environment, but then pumped more water than could be pumped without causing a lot of harm, and fought several years in court against citizens who sued them.

It paid nothing for the water, but sold the water it took for free for millions a day in profit. It also got millions in subsidies from the government.

Eventually, it lost in court and had to restrict its extraction to 200 gallons per minute.

The US alone has billions of these plastic bottles a year discarded, causing big environmental problems.

It appears the large water corporations are looking to gain more control of the fresh water in the world - while can become 'the new oil' as a strategic resource.

Those who control the water can get a lot of political power by who gets the water.

We should be vigilant about governments not allowing the abuse by corporations on this issue - playing a constructive role where they can but not allowing exploitation.

 

[wuliheron]

So there is no money in regulating and taxing breathing yet?

When you take your last breath they tax the shit out of you. In the meantime there are all kinds of regulations about smoking, pollution, etc. that regulate what people can and can't breath.

 

[wuliheron]

Exactly. I'm sure we could track anyone's life here and they would find others "rights" were abrogated to benefit them going all the way back to when rich Indians had their land stolen by impoverished Europeans and given away for free to them.

Fact is no one is Robinson Crusoe no matter what fantasies you have or right wing radio tells you.

No, but I was Elvis in a previous life and before that the Queen of England.

 

[nobodyknows]

The other day, I ran out of milk and had to go buy some at the store. Those bastards had me RIGHT where they wanted me, profiting off my unfortunate situation: running out of milk.

Are you comparing running out of milk to getting cancer and having your insurance company cancel your policy? Really?

Pathetic you are.

 

[nobodyknows]

A positive atmosphere would be UHC. Countless companies who have moved offshore have cited HC costs as the reason. Engines plants from Michigan to Ontario. To every china move. Cost of doing Business is just to much with stranglehold health lobby has on our congress critters.

I'm not commie either, I'm a small businessman myself since 2003 so I'd say a moderately successful one but I'm not sure old paradigms work anymore. I wish we could go back to idealistic sink or swim back when we had no competition and competition was all bombed out, but I'm not sure it works ANYMORE when other countries heavy subsidize industry in order to provide jobs for their people. We are competing against nations not factory to factory in our our little world. Instead, All our competition gets state subsidies whether chaebols, keiretsu, state heath insurance and national retirement etc none are lone wolfs and throwing millions on the street or worse on welfare rolls for old ideologies may not be smart.

Well put.

 

[Ape]

You have city water because people not like you had the government make or sponsor the systems to have it available, regulate its safety, affordably.

Government doesn't supply electricity, or gas, or telephone, or cable, or internet, or food, etc.

Government can provide guidelines (ie regulations) to secure the saftey of its citizens and allow the private sector, who does a better job at just about everything to provide said services in a safe and affordable manor. Healthcare and even water should be no different than food and electricity.

 

[Tom]

Government doesn't supply electricity, or gas, or telephone, or cable, or internet, or food, etc.

Government can provide guidelines (ie regulations) to secure the saftey of its citizens and allow the private sector, who does a better job at just about everything to provide said services in a safe and affordable manor. Healthcare and even water should be no different than food and electricity.

lots of places government does supply electricity, and more efficiently sometimes too.

And food is often subsidized by government, or regulated in it's price, so you're not right about that either.

 

[Ape]

lots of places government does supply electricity, and more efficiently sometimes too.

And food is often subsidized by government, or regulated in it's price, so you're not right about that either.

Links?

 

[Tom]

Links?

tva.gov
fda.gov
gotohighschool.com

 

[Ape]

tva.gov
fda.gov
gotohighschool.com

Just another troll, got it. I'm gonna love this ignore list.

 

[Craig234]

Government doesn't supply electricity, or gas, or telephone, or cable, or internet, or food, etc.

Government can provide guidelines (ie regulations) to secure the saftey of its citizens and allow the private sector, who does a better job at just about everything to provide said services in a safe and affordable manor. Healthcare and even water should be no different than food and electricity.

You're ignorant, and seem to have trouble staying on a topic, as well.

We were talking about public water - you know, the thing you did not say a word about.

What you did do is to spew ideology. Yay, how useful. And of course you're partly wrong.

It's one thing to educate the ignorant, it's another to waste time trying to educate the obnoxiously, willfully and insistently ignorant.

A rational person would look at the pros and cons of different ways of doing things - is the government better at it? The private sectors? Some combination?

An ideologue says things like 'the private sector is (practically) always more efficient'.

Who cares what the FACTS are. Oh, so the private sector spends several times as much on overhead for medical insurance than the government? La-la-la-la-la.

The government plays enormous roles in providing each of the things you listed, as well.

Electricity has a big government role in ensuring its availability for an affordable price; in some cases it's actually run by the government (like TVA) very well. Now, it could be better; one of the top lobbying industries is the utility/power industry, spending a fortune to change policies by its regulators in its favor.

Gas? You should be kidding - the government practically works for the oil industry, it has set much of our foreign policy around oil for many decades. For just one example, we made a security agreement with the House of Saud to guarantee their security in power - spending many billions to do so, causing all kinds of problems backing a corrupt regime - in exchange for guaranteed access to oil, after the 1970's embargo.

It's been suggested that there might be a lot of benefit to the government increasing its role in some of the oil industry - the most profit-making industry in world history.

Telephone? You might remember something like the AT&T breakup that had a huge impact on guaranteeing more competitive and affordable rates, not to mention a lot of regulation to protect consumers on basic phone service and to help ensure availability of affordable service.

Cable and internet? True; cable television, not the same sort of 'essential', has had less government role - resulting in it being one of the top-rated industries for customer satisfaction, customer service, and heavy competition. Why, while other countries might have dozens of cable suppliers competing, leading to a price a fraction of what we pay, American consumers often have as many as 2 or 3 choices, with such competition that Comcast is able to buy a major network further consolidating the media in the US, which already has 4 or 5 mega corporations owning about 90% of media, and avoiding regulation preventing that by things like a commissioner who voted to let them do it, almost immediately then leaving government to a well-paid job working for... Comcast. Yes, you have really shown how much less government helps.

Internet? It's young; while the government again has not had that much of a role, other than funding the invention of the foundation of the internet, again other countries with a larger government role have far better quality internet, with a far higher percent of homes with high speed internet, at lower cost than the US. Another victory for your 'little government role' approach.

Finally you mention food. That's a big topic, but suffice to say what the government does that works is a basic 'cheap food' policy. Food is pretty affordable in the US.

Where it starts to fall down more is when the private sector gets its way over the normal government regulatory role protecting consumers.

Sometimes the government has done great things, like disclosing ingredients and nutrition of food; but other times, the private sector has gotten its way, and this has led to things like the over-incentive of corn production - why the US is the one country in the world dominated by drinking high fructose corn syrup over sugar, for example - but mentioning sugar, also *paying taxpayer subsidies to wealthy sugar growers* that keep American consumers paying 22 cents for sugar with a global price of 7 cents.

In short, less *good* government role in food would lead to less safety, less quality, higher prices, less availability to the poor - in short a move towards what's most profitable for corporations at the expense of the public interest, just as the private sector has done such terrible things in the 'private water' industry as described above.

 

[Ape]

You're ignorant........

Do I buy water from Govt. Yes

Do I buy food from Govt. No

Do I buy gas, fuel, natural or otherwise from Govt. No

Do I buy power from Govt. No

Do I buy television, telephone, Internet from Govt. No

Do I buy healthcare from the Govt. No

Does the government provide guidelines and regulations to those companies so that what they provide is safe, yes. I already said that in the post you quoted

Now I could stoop to your level and call you all kinds of names but why bother? We are both from two different schools of thought.

I am a small government guy, a guy who feels man can govern himself and you are a big government guy, a guy who needs the government to do and provide everything for him. I can handle and respect the difference, why can't you?

 

[Craig234]

Do I buy water from Govt. Yes

Do I buy food from Govt. No

Do I buy gas, fuel, natural or otherwise from Govt. No

Do I buy power from Govt. No

Do I buy television, telephone, Internet from Govt. No

Do I buy healthcare from the Govt. No

Does the government provide guidelines and regulations to those companies so that what they provide is safe, yes. I already said that in the post you quoted

Now I could stoop to your level and call you all kinds of names but why bother? We are both from two different schools of thought.

I am a small government guy, a guy who feels man can govern himself and you are a big government guy, a guy who needs the government to do and provide everything for him. I can handle and respect the difference, why can't you?

I didn't call you any names. I said two descriptive things about you, that you are ignorant and that you have difficulty staying on topic.

As to ignorant, some shocking news: osme who are ignorant do not immediately understand that when they are informed they are.

Your posts provide mountains of evidence you are, but you are not appearing able to understand that, so let's not beat the point further.

As to staying on topic, once again you stray. Last time, I pointed out you abandoned the topic and spewed ideology.

We were discussing certain things the government does or not do. You abandoned the topic to ramble about which services you personally use, and to spew more ideology.

Now, we could have you post more on some other topic and spew some more wrong ideology and have me explain you proved my points again, but what's the point?

You're not 'a small government guy', you are an ideologue. Oops, that's a name.

One that's accurate and descriptive about you, based on your posts, like you might say I speak English. If you could be helped with rational comment, you would haven been.

So, now the only thing left is whether you spew more ideology - which I know you can do for many posts - or just recognize we're not communicating.

 

[dmcowen674]

Government doesn't supply electricity, or gas, or telephone, or cable, or internet, or food, etc.

Government can provide guidelines (ie regulations) to secure the saftey of its citizens and allow the private sector, who does a better job at just about everything to provide said services in a safe and affordable manor. Healthcare and even water should be no different than food and electricity.

You are sad confused Republican

You realize your heroes DE-regulating all of the above is what has put this country in this situation?

No you don't because you are sad and confused.

You need a lot more education but I doubt it would help, you are another lost cause.

Please find another country more suited for you. Thank you.

 

[JSt0rm]

ape you fucking retard. The government does provide electricity.

http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/homepage.jsp

 

[Ape]

Can no one discuss anything in this sub forum? Some of you guys really need to grow up and learn how to communicate with people that are of a different mindset if yours and not immediately jump to attack mode. I mean none of you know my political officiation (not a republican by the way but nice generalization) none of you know my education, none of you know what I do for a living and yet look at some of the crap being thrown around. I have mo problem learning something if I am wrong and but what makes any of you think I'm gonna spend a second listening to any of you who skip right to the insults and senseless attacks? You want people to listen, quit being an ass. Lucky for me the ignore feature works great here. It's too bad I have to use it but let's be honest, IRL would anyone really want to listen to the hate and aggression each and every time you have an opinion? I don't think so. And I'm not going to on here either.

 

[Ape]

ape you fucking retard. The government does provide electricity.

http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/homepage.jsp

Really? You are really going to use California as you example of how public power is better than private?

 

[Ape]

You are sad confused Republican

You realize your heroes DE-regulating all of the above is what has put this country in this situation?

No you don't because you are sad and confused.

You need a lot more education but I doubt it would help, you are another lost cause.

Please find another country more suited for you. Thank you.

Not a republican.

 

[Ape]

I didn't call you any names. I said two descriptive things about you, that you are ignorant and that you have difficulty staying on topic.

As to ignorant, some shocking news: osme who are ignorant do not immediately understand that when they are informed they are.

Your posts provide mountains of evidence you are, but you are not appearing able to understand that, so let's not beat the point further.

As to staying on topic, once again you stray. Last time, I pointed out you abandoned the topic and spewed ideology.

We were discussing certain things the government does or not do. You abandoned the topic to ramble about which services you personally use, and to spew more ideology.

Now, we could have you post more on some other topic and spew some more wrong ideology and have me explain you proved my points again, but what's the point?

You're not 'a small government guy', you are an ideologue. Oops, that's a name.

One that's accurate and descriptive about you, based on your posts, like you might say I speak English. If you could be helped with rational comment, you would haven been.

So, now the only thing left is whether you spew more ideology - which I know you can do for many posts - or just recognize we're not communicating.

Dude, I will say one last thing to you. You follow Paul Krugman, he how hates all consertatives and you have the nerve to call me an ideologue? Wow dude.