So Reagan Democrats aren't really Democrats? The Republicans and Independents that voted for Clinton in 1996 aren't really Republicans and Independents? Who gets the right to call whom what?
Obama is far more liberal relative to any democrat we've seen run for president in a long time, and he's far less conservative relative to McCain by pretty much any measure except his (maybe maybe not) quasi-isolationist rhetoric.
So I guess starting useless wars and wasting trillions on foreign adventures is the conservative thing to do? I guess putting America first in every category imaginable isn't a conservative mantra anymore? I think you're confusing neo-conservatism with conservatism, which isn't conservative at all.
Your problem is you associate all Liberterians with Capitalist/Free enterprised obsessed. You, like most of America, are only concerned with what slice of the pie you will get and how much you are going to pay for it.
There are many of us that realize that there has never been truer words spoken then those spoken by Ben Franklin "but in this world nothing is certain but death and taxes".
Too many people are too worried about short term things like tax raises or tax rebates. No one thinks of the long term consequences. Sure trickle down reaganomics treated us well for a few years. Then things went to hell and now the average CEO makes something like 600 times more than the average employee. They get bonuses for removing jobs and cutting back on employment. It completly backfired.
Reaganomics is often put into a fiscally coservatice/libertarian category yet it is completly against a free market. It cause unfair advantages that kill any chance of equal competetion.
what wars is McCain advocating starting? Obama's the one who's said he wanted to invade Pakistan. all this talk about a war with Iran is total BS and everyone knows it.
I don't think electing either will lead to lower government spending, but I don't see how you can see support for gays in the military, secularism, universal health care, and repealing tax cuts as anything but liberal.
I'm talking about Iraq. And Obama said performing surgical strikes in Pakistan, not the invasion McCain wants of Iran. Your specious diatribe won't work here.
I'll be honest with you. I think Obama is a competent individual who has a lot of "America first" ideas. Things like fixing our infrastructure, education and intelligent diplomacy are what we really need now, not more wars. But my voting for Obama is equal to my voting against the Republican Party. I'm a Republican and this party has gone to shit in the past 30 years. All the attacks we level at Democrats we do ourselves. The most competent leadership in economics at the executive level has come from Democrats. I'm tired of a lot of the assholes in office calling themselves Republicans and thinking only short term. America is going down the shitter and we need to revitalize our party so that we can better lead and compete with the rest of the world. Right before our fucking eyes we have China rising and Europe uniting and here we are fighting a bunch of third-world jihadis. The only thing were really good at is financial engineering and debt manipulation.
We need to set this country right again or else we'll just be wasting our resources.
I want to see the Republican Party lose badly in November so that we can purge ourselves of bad leadership and give America better options in the next round.
ebaycj
Diamond Member
- Mar 9, 2002
- 5,418
- 0
- 0
So what I think the OP is saying is that he is a small-L libertarian who is choosing to be pragmatic this election cycle and voting for the lesser of the two evils that actually stand a chance at getting elected, instead of throwing his vote away on an unelectable big-L Libertarian candidate.
bamacre
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2004
- 21,029
- 2
- 81
Why is voting for a 3rd party candidate so often considered "throwing the vote away?"
Personally, I often consider a vote for either of the major parties a vote that is thrown away.
I'm not going to throw my vote away just because so many others do.
Not following the herd does not make one lost.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Conservative Bush/McCain supporters pretending to be libertarians because they support guns rights and low taxes is like if socialists pretended to be libertarians because they support free speech and gay marriage. It's ridiculous and you're only fooling yourselves.
- Oct 2, 2007
- 2,181
- 1
- 0
Dont worry. Only snobs and people who play politics like a team based sport feel that way. It's not about doing the right thing, its about go team go! For people with weak egos that need to identify with a political stance.
Unfortunately for you, the war in Iraq is far more expensive than universal healthcare or any other initiative you could think of. So that alone makes him far more conservative than the nation building, warmongering McCain.
It's not throwing your vote away IMO.. but when people are dying, right now.. you must be a little more thoughtful on what you're doing in the ballot box.
Essentially McCain must be stopped, or my family will die, and many more Americans will die for nothing. Not to mention all the innocent civilians that will die in the mideast.
The fact there are people here claiming McCain isnt pro-pro-war and will escalate nearly all confrontations on all levels in all parts of the world is absurd.
That man will pave us the road to hell. Listen better to what he's saying! He's out of his damn mind. If I have to find the videos and link the articles detailing his insanity I'll be happy to.
Obama is clearly the most reasonable candidate when it comes to war and peace.. and in a time of war every other concern is off the table.
IF you value human life as paramount, as all true libertarian minded people do.
daniel1113
Diamond Member
- Jun 6, 2003
- 6,448
- 0
- 0
Originally posted by: Tab
Because, 99% of the time it is?
Well, as long as people continue to vote for someone who is "electable" rather than a good candidate we will never get out if this never ending cycle of shit politicians. How anyone could give up their vote for electability is beyond me, and quite frankly, it's pathetic.
- Oct 2, 2007
- 2,181
- 1
- 0
I agree with that completely. But being pragmatic about the current situation.. if McCain does win, my cousin will die. That's not 100%, but it's far more likely he will make sure my cousin loses his life in an unnecessary global conflict of our making.
That, is unnecessary and if McCain isn't stopped, I lose someone I love. Many already have, and they lost them for nothing. Standing in solidarity in stopping the abuse and misuse of American military force in the world is paramount to all other current concerns including the economy.
I believe our most valuable natural resource is our youth. Stop their senseless deaths now, and the best way to do that is voting in Barack Obama. Everything else, is simply politics and bullshit in my eyes. Both Obama and McCain are going to spend more than I'd like, and Bob Barr is not going to win. I do encourage voting for him though as he'll mainly steal votes from people who'd usually vote for the Republican candidate. A vote for Barr is good to encourage the libertarian platform, and continue to erode from the neoconservative coalition in both major parties.
Simply put, I wouldnt trade 1 American life for a bucket of oil. I wouldn't trade 1 American life to stabilize Iraq. Not 1 life for a vibrant economy. I wouldn't trade 1 American life to maintain the "peace" we bring to the world.
Ironically, we are trading our lives for something.. and yet we have none of the above things.
It's time to stop with the bullshit arguments over who is more liberal between two liberals.. vote for who is going to quit tossing American lives down the drain for nothing and the economy with it.
That, is unnecessary and if McCain isn't stopped, I lose someone I love. Many already have, and they lost them for nothing. Standing in solidarity in stopping the abuse and misuse of American military force in the world is paramount to all other current concerns including the economy.
I believe our most valuable natural resource is our youth. Stop their senseless deaths now, and the best way to do that is voting in Barack Obama. Everything else, is simply politics and bullshit in my eyes. Both Obama and McCain are going to spend more than I'd like, and Bob Barr is not going to win. I do encourage voting for him though as he'll mainly steal votes from people who'd usually vote for the Republican candidate. A vote for Barr is good to encourage the libertarian platform, and continue to erode from the neoconservative coalition in both major parties.
Simply put, I wouldnt trade 1 American life for a bucket of oil. I wouldn't trade 1 American life to stabilize Iraq. Not 1 life for a vibrant economy. I wouldn't trade 1 American life to maintain the "peace" we bring to the world.
Ironically, we are trading our lives for something.. and yet we have none of the above things.
It's time to stop with the bullshit arguments over who is more liberal between two liberals.. vote for who is going to quit tossing American lives down the drain for nothing and the economy with it.
daniel1113
Diamond Member
- Jun 6, 2003
- 6,448
- 0
- 0
First of all, your cousin signed up for this. If he didn't want to take the risk of getting killed, he shouldn't have joined the military. I'm against this war as much as anyone can be, but the bottom line is that we have a completely voluntary military, and everyone who joins knows damn well what they are getting into. They are adults who can think for themselves.
Second, If you think either candidate is more or less likely to get your cousin killed, you are very misguided. Neither has a plan to end the war, and both have made statements with the intent of carrying on with them or additional wars in the future.
If you really wanted to end the war and stop the misuse of our military, you would stand up as a real Libertarian and vote accordingly. However, as I already stated, it's clear that you are not a libertarian. A libertarian could never vote for a socialist nor a warmonger.
Second, If you think either candidate is more or less likely to get your cousin killed, you are very misguided. Neither has a plan to end the war, and both have made statements with the intent of carrying on with them or additional wars in the future.
If you really wanted to end the war and stop the misuse of our military, you would stand up as a real Libertarian and vote accordingly. However, as I already stated, it's clear that you are not a libertarian. A libertarian could never vote for a socialist nor a warmonger.
- Oct 2, 2007
- 2,181
- 1
- 0
Just as Democrats who supported Reagan aren't Democrats and so forth. You were already shot down on that point.
As far as he "signed up for this".. that's a neocon argument and totally fallacious because he did not sign up to be sent to his death in an illegal war. He signed up to defend the Constitution. There's nothing constitutional about this war. Who isn't the libertarian here me or you? Also, you're hand waving saying that it's OK to abuse and misuse our servicemen and women because they "signed up for it". Sorry they didn't sign up for that.
Misguided isnt the word if you think Obama won't keep more American military personnel safe than McCain, you are dellusional. Obama intends to deescalate the war, while McCain intends to escalate it. Take a good guess at which will result in more American and civilian deaths? What's going on in your head?
Your opinion on me qualifying to be a libertarian is as useless as can be, but IMO you are the furthest thing from a libertarian when you are essentially advocating for senseless murder of our troops and tossing your hands in the air saying it doesn't matter who is President between McCain and Obama. They are both tax and spend liberals but Obama is far less confrontational and warlike.
As far as he "signed up for this".. that's a neocon argument and totally fallacious because he did not sign up to be sent to his death in an illegal war. He signed up to defend the Constitution. There's nothing constitutional about this war. Who isn't the libertarian here me or you? Also, you're hand waving saying that it's OK to abuse and misuse our servicemen and women because they "signed up for it". Sorry they didn't sign up for that.
Misguided isnt the word if you think Obama won't keep more American military personnel safe than McCain, you are dellusional. Obama intends to deescalate the war, while McCain intends to escalate it. Take a good guess at which will result in more American and civilian deaths? What's going on in your head?
Your opinion on me qualifying to be a libertarian is as useless as can be, but IMO you are the furthest thing from a libertarian when you are essentially advocating for senseless murder of our troops and tossing your hands in the air saying it doesn't matter who is President between McCain and Obama. They are both tax and spend liberals but Obama is far less confrontational and warlike.
daniel1113
Diamond Member
- Jun 6, 2003
- 6,448
- 0
- 0
There is a huge difference between a party (Republican, Democrat, etc.) and a set of principles (libertarianism). People can change from party to party because party principles also change. Today's republican platform is almost the complete opposite of what it was nearly 60 years ago. On the other hand, sound principles never change. Either you're for free markets, personal liberty, and small governments; or you're not. I think it's beyond hypocritical to claim to support such principles when you're willing to ignore them while voting.
No, that's not what I said. I think it's terrible that our servicemen are being used to fight unconstitutional wars, and I am completely against the practice. However, an army is made up of men, all of which make a decision to follow orders or follow the Constitution. And, it's not like our military was used to protect the Constitution, then right after your cousin joined it started carrying out unconstitutional orders. It's been fighting unconstitutional wars for decades, so there's no excuse for anyone today in the military to say that they didn't see it coming. It was his decision to join, and he can choose to stop fighting at any time. No doubt there will be consequences for his actions, so I'm not sure I can blame him for doing otherwise, but it would be the Constitutional thing to do. Hell, if enough soldiers stopped fighting, this war would be over very quickly.
You're a fool if you think Obama is going to deescalate anything (at least in any meaningful and measurable way). He has said countless times that an attack on Iran is not off the table and that he will not pull our troops out of Iraq. And guess what, so has John McCain. A vote for either is a vote for unconstitutional military action.
Quite the opposite. I'm the only one here willing to stand up for my core beliefs (personal liberty, small governments, and free markets) and vote accordingly. Why won't you, if you truly believe in such things?
I guess it all depends on what you think is going to happen after we withdraw.
McCain thinks that Iraq will descend into even more chaos than it's in right now, and that it could become what Afghanistan was pre-9/11.
Obama seems to hope that everything will be hunky-dory as soon as there are no more US flags flying in Iraq, but even he said he's send forces back if that doesn't happen.
but all your talk about McCain wanting to escalate the war or go to war with Iran is totally bullshit.
McCain thinks that Iraq will descend into even more chaos than it's in right now, and that it could become what Afghanistan was pre-9/11.
Obama seems to hope that everything will be hunky-dory as soon as there are no more US flags flying in Iraq, but even he said he's send forces back if that doesn't happen.
but all your talk about McCain wanting to escalate the war or go to war with Iran is totally bullshit.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 22K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 409
-
Facebook
Twitter