About the whole memory thing, I noticed that cards are usually best when combined with their original amount of video ram. For example, 64mb on the gf4200, 128mb on the 9800p or 6600gt, and 256mb for x800 series/6800 series. Adding more memory to the above cards usually doesnt help because they're not fast enough to use it effectively. So, applying the same pattern, a 512mb 6800 or x800 card would be a waste of money.
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Why go with SM3.0 today?
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About the whole memory thing, I noticed that cards are usually best when combined with their original amount of video ram. For example, 64mb on the gf4200, 128mb on the 9800p or 6600gt, and 256mb for x800 series/6800 series. Adding more memory to the above cards usually doesnt help because they're not fast enough to use it effectively. So, applying the same pattern, a 512mb 6800 or x800 card would be a waste of money.
Also Munky and everyone else, i dont know if you read up on what difficulties ATi had making their 512Mb cards, but they had to do some quite major changes to their architecture to decrease the latency times on their cards. Because the only way they could fit 512Mb to the card was using double sided RAM. And the latency between each side was very high, so they had to do a lot of work for it to be working well with their performances.
To me, i know that nVidia gives their vendors a lot of room to work on how they wanna make their cards and what they put on it. The thing is vendors dont have that type of stuff to change the architecture and memory controllers to work well with double sided RAM that i expect the nVidia 512Mb cards have. Unless im totally wrong.
And also, if im right nVidia havent released a 512Mb card, only their vendors.
BenSkywalker
Diamond Member
And I say yet again, reading comprehension has tanked-
I bolded the relevant part. He did clearly implicate that he was talking about a SLI setup- it is clear the 's' wasn't accidental as he followed it with 'are' instead of 'is'.
hans030390
Diamond Member
I'm wanting to know if you're being serious or not...you really can't tell without the smily faces since i can't really see your face or hear you...so dont call me retarded since i dont know 😉
and about the threads title "why do with sm3.0 today?" There really is no point in having it now...in the future, you'll need it...period...i doubt future games will support sm2.0 or anything lower because you NEED sm3.0 to get next gen graphics. Those games will be out soon, like the end of this year. Obviously, if you plan on upgrading soon, you wouldnt want a sm3.0 card (be it ATI's new ones or the 6xxx line). BUT, if you buy a new card every year or two...SM3.0 isn't that important yet. I got a Sm3.0 card because i do NOT upgrade often and knew that i would be better off with that than an ATI card.
I really don't have much to say because many of you know nothing about SM3.0 and don't put up a good argument (if you read up, good for you, then maybe we can really discuss it)
Muchos gracias Ben and Keys!
I guess I'm supposed to extrapolate that by "I at the moment have an X850XT-PE but thats because it gives me the best performance, and i also get the best and newest thing" he meant "single card", but if I say 512MB 6800Us are available, and we all know one 6800U won't beat two, it's pretty tricky to decipher.
It's all good.
🙂
Its not just about selling highend cards.
If it were not for nVidia helping developers out through the years in various ways I seriously doubt the PC gaming market as we know it would even exist.
Back to selling cards and what did ATi do to advance 3d gaming while top dog - ATi had 2 and a bit years of dominance hardware wise between launching R300 and nVidia launching nV4x. Where were all the games that took advantage of DX9 during that period? There was 3dmark03, TR-AOD and Farcry basically. I wouldn't say ATi's involvement with any of them was large, except maybe with the exception of 3dmark03.
We are only just past the 1 year mark with Nv4x and SM30 and already there is more support for it and its features by the developers than was displayed for SM2.0 early on. In fact SM2.0 support didn't really take off until nV4x appeared.
imported_Reverend
Junior Member
Huh? But I did give you my answer! My answer was in the shape of one of the questions I had asked Tim Sweeney, where I already knew what his answer would be (his answer serves as confirmation), which is that development of "SM2.0 PC games" has suffered and is suffering due to the Xbox and the upcoming next-gen consoles. Isn't this one answer to the question "Why go with SM3.0 today?" ??? Do you understand?
As for the last part of my reply above, surely you (and hopefully others) know I was joking!!!
I'd disagree.
Because its the standard today, Microsofts released standard that is out and games are built on it today. Its a part of DirectX 9C.
I dont know, I like to have the latest DirectX hardware standard.
Games have been built on it today, not just tomorrow.
I agree with this guy.
You can spot a ATI fanboy by those who claim the X850XT PE is the best single card outside of SLI. Even the 850 'revision' (does it deserve that title?) of the x800xt pe still does not dominate a single 6800U 256MB or 512MB.
I doubt you could tell the difference between them at all. You'd have to benchmark to notice the 1-10fps difference in many games.
I'd take the 6800U, because I can toss another one in and use SLI. As well as have DX9C... better Linux drivers, 64bit drivers. We've been over the "what card would you have handed to you" fantasy before. I wouldnt trade a Ultra for a X850.
Good, honest guys here can't even sell them at reasonable prices! Whats that telling you?
That even the guys purporting that the X800s are God's gift to video cards arent exactly BUYING the rhetoric? No pun intended. 😉
QFT with the exception of "Far Cry" part- Far Cry hit the market about the same time the nV4X launched!
If ATI had any developer relations, I wouldn't have been able to say for those two years:"DX9? Pfft.".
It's a LOT harder to say "Riddick, Far Cry, SC:CT- pfft" because those are all GREAT games a lot of people play and take advantage of the nV40 chipset.
BTW- IT could be said that even during those two years nVidia had as much an impact as ATI, because Carmack had to develop Doom3 on a 5800U because he ran into the limit of the R300s instruction set. The D3 engine will be licensed a LOT.
mooncancook
Platinum Member
I doubt future games will require sm3, not until the next gen cards overtakes the market. There's too large a crowd of ATI owners for game producers to ignore. heck, if a producer makes SM3 required then screw it, i just don't buy the game. If i feel like my life is missing something coz i didn't get to play a game then i definately have bigger issues in my life. SM3 is good to have but it is NOT a NEED. Oh yeah, if the next gen graphics is only about SM3 then i would be really disappointed. I expect more new features than that, which will makes both 6800 and X8xx inadequate regardless having SM3 or not.
I know I'll upgrade when the next gen card comes out and price settles down a bit. I doubt by then any 6800 owners will be laughing because they would want to upgrade as well and with a bigger dilemma.
Anyway, I think nVidia did a good job by including SM3 but did a big job with pricing. ATI did a good job with pricing of X800XL but did a bad job by not keeping up with nVidia's features, namely SM3.
imported_Noob
Senior member
You think an 6800U can outperform an X800/X850 XT? Come on. Maybe in Doom 3 and UT2k4 yes, but that's about it.
It's too bad people like you actually believe stuff like this NooB.
Call of Duty
6800U beats the X800XTPE at every benchmark?
Far Cry
The 6800U is less the 2fps behind the X800XT PE at Far Cry 12X10 4X8X and 16X12 4X8X. If you can tell the difference between 49.8fps and 48.3fps, you're...........lying. Tie.
The Sims2
6800U wins the two highest settings?
Battlefield Vietnam
While the 6800U only wins 1/3 here, this time it's within 4fps at much higher framerates. Again, who can tell the difference in 57 and 61fps? (answer:no one)
Riddick
6800U wins all Riddick
Pacific Fighters
6800U "wins" 2/3, within 1fps at other, but really a tie due to close scores
Lock On
6800U "wins" 2/3, within 1fps at other, but really a tie due to close scores
IL2 Sturmovik
6800U "wins" all three, but really a tie due to close scores
There you have it NooB. I've just given you EIGHT games (besides Doom3 and UT2004) where the 6800U and and X800XT PE and X850XTPE are for the most part totally tied with indiscernible performance differences.
It's a sad joke how guys like you run around posting about the supposed "big performance differences" between the two top shelf cards. Anyone who actually knows what they're talking about can prove the cards perform about the same, and the 6800U gives you SM3, soft stencil shadows, EXR HDR, and SLI to boot.
housecat, I'm just going to back away slowly....
Greg, you posted as radar1200gs at B3D, right? While I don't know exactly why you were banned, you certainly trolled enough to deserve at least an extended time out.
As for the rest of this thread, it got nowhere slow. I'd like to know if the OP finally understood that SM3 helps, not hurts, and that B3D's article (along with FiringSquad's) demonstrated that. Rev, I'm surprised to see you registered here just to set the local wildlife straight. I thought you were supposed to be busy with other projects? 🙂
Greg, you posted as radar1200gs at B3D, right? While I don't know exactly why you were banned, you certainly trolled enough to deserve at least an extended time out.
As for the rest of this thread, it got nowhere slow. I'd like to know if the OP finally understood that SM3 helps, not hurts, and that B3D's article (along with FiringSquad's) demonstrated that. Rev, I'm surprised to see you registered here just to set the local wildlife straight. I thought you were supposed to be busy with other projects? 🙂
So I'm a fanboy for making statements that are backed up by benchmarks? Read for yourself. The X850XT PE beats the 6800U in the majority of the benchmarks.
http://www20.graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041222/vga_charts-01.html
UT2004
X850XT - 3
6800U - 0
COD
X850XT PE - 0
6800U - 3
D3
X850XT PE - 0
6800U - 3
Far Cry
X850XT PE - 3
6800U - 0
BF Vietnam
X850XT PE - 3
6800U - 0
HL2
X850XT PE - 3
6800U - 0
Totals
X850XT PE - 12
6800U - 6
And the X850XT PE will come out on top more times than a 6800U. That gives it the title of fastest video card.
Funny you should bring that up. There was a thread here awhile back that asked people which card they would choose. And you know what the result was? People picked the X850XT PE over the 6800U at better than two to one.
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1517489&enterthread=y
The problem with your VGA Charts link Creig is it doesn't really "back up" anything?
2/3 benchmarks on those pages are at 10X7? Do you think anyone really cares who wins between 6800Us and X850XT PEs at 10X7?
Do you think anyone with either of these cards has ever run a game at 10X7?
So, you're posting misleading info at best here. Don't you think the benchmarks I linked to, that include 12X10 4X8X and 16X12 4X8X, are a more accurate representation of these cards? I bet most people here do.
🙂:beer:
BTW- note how I call the benches a tie when the difference is too small to observe without the counter on? This is the "non-fanboy" way to go about this? Sure I could have totalled them up and said,"Look! the 6800U won more!" but the fact of the matter is the cards are so close that would be misleading.
(Sort of like including 10X7 0X0X in your stats on $500 cards?)
2/3 benchmarks on those pages are at 10X7? Do you think anyone really cares who wins between 6800Us and X850XT PEs at 10X7?
Do you think anyone with either of these cards has ever run a game at 10X7?
So, you're posting misleading info at best here. Don't you think the benchmarks I linked to, that include 12X10 4X8X and 16X12 4X8X, are a more accurate representation of these cards? I bet most people here do.
🙂:beer:
BTW- note how I call the benches a tie when the difference is too small to observe without the counter on? This is the "non-fanboy" way to go about this? Sure I could have totalled them up and said,"Look! the 6800U won more!" but the fact of the matter is the cards are so close that would be misleading.
(Sort of like including 10X7 0X0X in your stats on $500 cards?)
Actually I do remember the thread, thats why I brought it up.
But popular opinion is not always right Creig. Just because you can get ppl to click "ATI" in a poll doesnt make it right.
If you read the thread, you'll find the most rational, sound and logical ones to lean towards the Ultra. I lean more along the lines of the Ultra, but between those two.. a trade isnt really necessary. I'd prob bother trading the X850 for the Ultra, but not the other way around. That said, the X850 is the only ATI card I like at all. Probably the only one out now that I would consider purchasing at all personally. Ackmed uses a X850 and I highly doubt he cares about trading for anything unless someone offered him SLI in a straightup trade for his single X850.
Guys that use X850XT PEs are prob likely to be upgrading next gen anyway.
But I never would get on myself, I'd rather have dual 6800GTs or Ultras.
I gotta get back in Warcraft, but your benchmarks are from TOMS for jeebuz christ man.
Get that out of here.
edit- Rollo bothered to actually look at your TOMS benchmarks. I didnt, sounds like they were a bad choice.. 1024x768? Whats wrong with you?
No one buys that level of stuff to play at 1024.
Creig, you show so much bias its sick. I may like what I like, but I'm not going to turn into some deceptive creep to make NV look better than it really is. Knock that crap off.
The only times I ever "trolled" was in direct response to posts by fanATIcs that infest the B3D forums. If trolling were a bannable offense then why is digital wanderer a forum member still, and why is Martox a moderator???
I got banned because I dared to stand up to Dave baumann and call him out one time too many. He doesn't handle being proved wrong too well.
Greg, I don't want to take this thread any further OT, so I'll let it go. (digi is such a personable "troll," though, isn't he? 🙂)
I will grant you that B3D's forums are populated with a lot of vocal ATI supporters, but there are still enough objective/neutral parties who know more than me to make it worth visiting.
I will grant you that B3D's forums are populated with a lot of vocal ATI supporters, but there are still enough objective/neutral parties who know more than me to make it worth visiting.
~$245 + tax was convincing enough for me to go with an X800XL using the ATI pre-order deal a while back. Not worth paying atleast $150 extra for a 6800gt w/ SM3.0. If they were the same price I would probably have gone Nvidia, although going into a SFF power use would be a concern too.
otispunkmeyer
Lifer
yeah i remember reading this, they had to do some complicated work to bring the latencies back down, their card/pcb desgin just wasnt designed to accommodate 512mb of memory. Nvidia on the other hand had the traces for 512mb Vram in the desgin from the kick off
otispunkmeyer
Lifer
1)that obviously hasnt stopped Ubisoft, i will remind you that Splinter cell is SM1.1 (which even gf3's and radeon 8500's can do) or its SM3.0 (which only geforce 6 series can do) in this game ATI owners have nothing special over much older hardware bar pure speed, thats it. its just tumped up old technology.
2) games will require it, if you want the very best experience, though they wont NEED to have it to run the game. it wont be a necessity as such, but you'll wish you had it if the option/set up screen in a game gives you the choice of shader models to chose from. id feel abit gutted knowing the guy next door is playing with the very best graphics possible, while i have to settle for second best with my radeon x800
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