Why does nvidia cheat so much?

[amenx]

Intentionally burning out cards through drivers to force new sales is pretty ingenious And no, i'm not serious.

Nvidia will definitely win in that regard. AMD has the decency not to write drivers that burn up your video cards... (196.75, good times :thumbsdown

Drivers? The 196.75 was an anomaly to be sure. It was the only driver in Nvidias history that had a glitch with fan control. Can you name other driver with a similar issue? No you cant. Other than that, Nvidia drivers are recognized to be generally better than AMD drivers and is a factor why many AMD owners had switched to the other side.

But I get the drift that the main thrust of this thread is business ethics. To me, I dont really care about ethics or questionable business practices (hence my Intel CPU). Only important thing is performance (and not necessarily value, or I would be with an AMD CPU). Nvidia has simply given me a near flawless gaming experience with great drivers throughout my ownership of their cards for last few years. AMD may offer better bang for the buck (in some cases) with GPUs, and same with CPUs. But theres a reason for that, they need to lower their prices to compete with the better performing competition. The 6950/6970 were intended to rival or beat their Nvidia counterparts, but they fell short and could only match the next in line product. Now THAT more than anything, imo, has AMD owners panties in a bunch. So they look for flaws and go on endless 'fishing expeditions' seeking out Nvidias ills and evils to justify what their own hardware choices. A bit like AMDZone with their superior CPUs vs the big, bad blue Intel.

 

[badb0y]

Those who believe the gaming will split, worry not, it did long time ago. From handheld to console to computer. Each sector has multiple selection. For handheld you have 3ds, psp, and now angrybird. For consoles we have Wii, PS3, xbox360. For computer, we have MAC and PC. Everyone likes Dx11, but no love for OpenGL. Split? Soon we will have games that can play on your phone and your computer. I just never understand why console players has a separate network from PC players. It will only be in AMD's or Nvidia's dreams to have their own sector of gaming.

For AMD to take off, first they have to fix bulldozer, then release a video card that really support Dx11 to its max. Bring on CPU/GPU that was truely cheap and yet powerful like they once did, many many years ago. Maybe then, they can start saying something as a leader. At the beginning, AMD didn't have PR to promote their product, it simply hit the market like a bomb. 1/3 of the price, same performance, and overclock like no limit. Now? Bulldozer running in the wrong direction, not smart with phones, and continuously call foul and have fanboys cry out loud for everything they are not good at. Really hard to see?

I for one don't mind AMD coming up with something proprietary that changes gaming. If it is good enough for people to jump ship, then god bless Nvidia. Eyefinity is a joke. If AMD depends on it, than they are doomed. They need something that gain traction, something that makes people say "Nvidia, learn!" or "Intel, learn!" So what if it is proprietary? google copy Iphone, google purchase patients, MS copy IOS and they sue each other for no good reason. This is how business runs nowadays. ICQ? What is that? MSN/Yahoo FTW! Friendster? What is that? Facebook FTW! Oh wait Google+ For the future WIN! Proprietary? Sue me later bro.

Cut the PR and show me capable hardwares AMD! How many who were once diehard fans and swore Intel sucks and are currently using Intel CPU? How many who were once ATI diehard fans who are now using Thermi? Expect loyalty? Get real! I pay you bro. If you can't deliver, then don't expect a damn from me! Nuff said.

/back to the nice Seero.

Nothing proprietary can change gaming, just look at PhysX. In order to change gaming you need open standards especially in the PC market. If you want to enhance the experience for your user base that's fine with me that's why I never cry about PhysX because it's not a necessity but an additional option nVidia graphics cards have just like Eyefinity is something AMD cards have but is not required to play a game. I hate consoles but the day I read a "nVidia GPU only" or a "AMD GPU only" as a requirement to play a game I will jump ship to consoles.

As for the OP stop being a lunatic, these guys a business anything to get a leg over the competitor is fair game. I may not agree with it but their goal is to make money not please us gamers.

 

[3DVagabond]

Drivers? The 196.75 was an anomaly to be sure. It was the only driver in Nvidias history that had a glitch with fan control. Can you name other driver with a similar issue? No you cant.

Yes I can. 267.52 was the driver that was detonating the GTX 590.

You did notice that one of the posts you quoted was meant tongue in cheek. He said he wasn't serious. I don't think anyone really thinks nVidia was purposely blowing up their customer's cards.

 

[PCboy]

Drivers? The 196.75 was an anomaly to be sure. It was the only driver in Nvidias history that had a glitch with fan control. Can you name other driver with a similar issue? No you cant.

You can't escape the fact that they released a glitch driver to begin with. Can you name a driver that ATI released that had the power to burn video cards and loss of property? No you can't.

We're strictly talking about business ethics here, not whichever driver is better. Save that talk elsewhere. I don't care about drivers because I've never had a problem with either since the days of GeForce 2s and 9800 Pros.

 

[houe]

Come on the driver that burned up cards has nothing to do with ethics. Nvidia did not do that on purpose as some plan to get people to buy more cards.

 

[mosox]

Allowing Nvidia to software cripple the AMD cards in their TWIMTBP games will lead to AMD software crippling Nvidia in their own Gaming Evolved games and so on and before you know it you'll have to switch the video card from one game to another. Not to mention that the prices will go up because a HD 6950 won't compete anymore with the 560Ti since they will run different games so both companies will charge whatever they want.

After Hawx2 and Crysis2 the next game in which the 560Ti will be better than the more expensive HD 6970 will be BF3. Then we will see the HD 6850 trashing the GTX 570 in some Gaming Evolved game and so on.

Nvidia started the fire. Let's see if they can stand the heat.

 

[3DVagabond]

Allowing Nvidia to software cripple the AMD cards in their TWIMTBP games will lead to AMD software crippling Nvidia in their own Gaming Evolved games and so on and before you know it you'll have to switch the video card from one game to another. Not to mention that the prices will go up because a HD 6950 won't compete anymore with the 560Ti since they will run different games so both companies will charge whatever they want.

After Hawx2 and Crysis2 the next game in which the 560Ti will be better than the more expensive HD 6970 will be BF3. Then we will see the HD 6850 trashing the GTX 570 in some Gaming Evolved game and so on.

Nvidia started the fire. Let's see if they can stand the heat.

This is what absolutely has to be avoided. We'll end up needing separate crds or separate versions of the games. It'll be like console wars. You know what? The card companies and game devs will be the only one's who win.

 

[PCboy]

Come on the driver that burned up cards has nothing to do with ethics. Nvidia did not do that on purpose as some plan to get people to buy more cards.

Why are you talking about that again? I was referring to amenx's retort sidetracking my argument. I don't care about the whole incident, I'm not the one that suffered losses. Let's actually talk about the topic, the way it's meant to be discussed.

 

[amenx]

Allowing Nvidia to software cripple the AMD cards in their TWIMTBP games will lead to AMD software crippling Nvidia in their own Gaming Evolved games and so on and before you know it you'll have to switch the video card from one game to another.

Thats the game devs shortcoming, not Nvidia or AMDs. Game devs/studios should insist before cooperating with the card makers that none of the main graphics features, functions are disabled for the other side. And if they write code that *looks* like it may hamper one side or the other, and is unnecessary, then they should object or be prepared to shoulder the blame. ALL this shit about games being "sabotaged" to favor one card maker over the other is ENTIRELY the developers responsibility to deal with and prevent before it occurs. In a cutthroat business rivalry it is expected for one side to seek advantage over the other, by hook or by crook. I wouldnt put it past AMD to do the same if they had the resources and influence Nvidia has with game devs. But they dont, they just keep quiet and let their supporters cry online about it. :whiste:

 

[3DVagabond]

Thats the game devs shortcoming, not Nvidia or AMDs. Game devs/studios should insist before cooperating with the card makers that none of the main graphics features, functions are disabled for the other side. And if they write code that *looks* like it may hamper one side or the other, and is unnecessary, then they should object or be prepared to shoulder the blame. ALL this shit about games being "sabotaged" to favor one card maker over the other is ENTIRELY the developers responsibility to deal with and prevent before it occurs. In a cutthroat business rivalry it is expected for one side to seek advantage over the other, by hook or by crook. I wouldnt put it past AMD to do the same if they had the resources and influence Nvidia has with game devs. But they dont, they just keep quiet and let their supporters cry online about it. :whiste:

Both parties are culpable. How can you say it's the game devs sole shortcoming for taking the carrot? I can just as easily rationalize that the crime never would have occurred if the bribe was never offered. Which does have precedence in law. My real opinion though is that it takes two to tango. They're both douche bags for doing it.

 

[WMD]

Nvidia cripples competitors hardware yes. The kind hearts at AMD doesnt do any of that underhanded stuff. The most they do is artificially cripple your hardware to force you to upgrade. For example no AF in DA2 if you are stuck in Dx9.

 

[houe]

AMD has much better ethics...

http://blogs.amd.com/play/2010/03/10/amd-gamers-manifesto/

4. Putting gamers first: At the heart of all of our efforts is the mandate to make gamers’ experiences better – those with AMD hardware in their system, or not, deserve the best gaming experience possible.

 

[Keysplayr]

Lets make one thing clear. OPTIMIZATION AND MALICIOUS CODE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. You'd have to blind to think that this stuff is in any way, shape, or form , "optimization".

You didn't read those links at all did you? Nvidia didn't optimize anything, they created tesselation intentionally in ways that wasn't even visible (beneath the world) , didn't improve image quality, and was manipulated in a way to be SOLELY malicious to non nvidia users. NVIDIA put malicious code in Batman : AA that disabled AA on non nvidia GPUs. Please for the love of god tell me how putting code in a game to disable AA on competing hardware is optimization?

Nvidia puts malicious code in games to intentionally disable features and run dummy features on non nvidia hardware, that isn't designed to optimize it for nvidia - this has gone on for years and for too long.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/21404/1

http://www.techpowerup.com/104868/B...nables_AA_Only_on_NVIDIA_Hardware_on_PCs.html

Those are just 2 examples, there are more, like age of conan, metro 2033, FC2 and others. But I will just continue being an nvidia sheep, they can do no wrong and I will follow them blindly regardless of their ethics, don't mind me. Baa.

Wow. Now let me make something clear. Whatever Nvidia does, it's for their customers and to attract more customers. They might figure, if they do more, they will come. It seems to be working. It's only going to be so long before the AMD apologists become tired of waiting for AMD to get moving. Be the first to offer AA in a title that lacks it. Inject DX11 patch with core DX11 features into a game for a better experience. Only a matter of time before people get sick of rooting for a company that does not deliver. Eventually, if nothing changes, they will fester and die off. All these accusations are building up. We are seeing them more and more. And every one of them is just an airplane towing a banner about AMD shortcomings, lets be the victim and see where it gets us, inaction attitude. So, keep it up. Keep raising the stink about how evil Nv is and how good AMD is. To me, it shows what AMD isn't doing or can't do. Maybe it's why I like Nvidia better than AMD/ATI. They are do'ers. Not whiners playing the victim card. There are only so many of those cards in the deck to be pulled before someone eventually thinks for themselves.

Sorry for the rambling. Thanks for the thread Blackened23. You drive points home like no other.

 

[amenx]

Both parties are culpable. How can you say it's the game devs sole shortcoming for taking the carrot? I can just as easily rationalize that the crime never would have occurred if the bribe was never offered. Which does have precedence in law. My real opinion though is that it takes two to tango. They're both douche bags for doing it.

No. If the game dev allows one side to screw the other with shady code, IT IS NOT A CRIME!!! Its pathetic behavior or lousy oversight on the part of the game dev, thats all. The card maker may be behaving unethically, but it is NOT obligated to work for the benefit of all gamers in the universe, only for those who buy or own their cards. If I as a shareholder were to know that Nvidia is wasting time or resources to make sure the other sides cards work properly for a game, then I would be PISSED. Same goes for AMD. It is the game devs obligation to ensure that no objectionable practices occur that may favor one side over the other. If they do not, then blame should properly be directed towards the game dev.

 

[amenx]

AMD has much better ethics...

http://blogs.amd.com/play/2010/03/10/amd-gamers-manifesto/

4. Putting gamers first: At the heart of all of our efforts is the mandate to make gamers’ experiences better – those with AMD hardware in their system, or not, deserve the best gaming experience possible.

I am sure the majority of peeps buy what in their view is the best hardware and that ethics figures very little in their decisions. Thats why the majority own Intel chips over AMD. It seems though that many AMD card owners like to use the ethics argument and IMPLY its a major factor in their choice of hardware. Kind of looks silly with their Intel CPU next to their GPU, but OK...

 

[3DVagabond]

No. If the game dev allows one side to screw the other with shady code, IT IS NOT A CRIME!!! Its pathetic behavior or lousy oversight on the part of the game dev, thats all. The card maker may be behaving unethically, but it is NOT obligated to work for the benefit of all gamers in the universe, only for those who buy or own their cards. If I as a shareholder were to know that Nvidia is wasting time or resources to make sure the other sides cards work properly for a game, then I would be PISSED. Same goes for AMD. It is the game devs obligation to ensure that no objectionable practices occur that may favor one side over the other. If they do not, then blame should properly be directed towards the game dev.

Have you ever heard of entrapment? That's where I took the line from. Was I saying it's actually a crime? No! I'm saying that when a crime occurs under the same circumstances, the person offering the payoff in the first place is the one that is held either more or solely responsible. While you want to do just the opposite. I'm just trying to show how illogical your position is.

 

[Keysplayr]

Have you ever heard of entrapment? That's where I took the line from. Was I saying it's actually a crime? No! I'm saying that when a crime occurs under the same circumstances, the person offering the payoff in the first place is the one that is held either more or solely responsible. While you want to do just the opposite. I'm just trying to show how illogical your position is.

Simple question here. What kind of job do you think Nvidia is doing for it's customers? Whether they be gamers using Nvidia GPUs or Nvidia stockholders.
How are they doing?

 

[3DVagabond]

Simple question here. What kind of job do you think Nvidia is doing for it's customers? Whether they be gamers using Nvidia GPUs or Nvidia stockholders.
How are they doing?

I don't know what difference what I think matters. You aren't going to like it anyway. I don't think nVidia cares one iota about their customers.

If nVidia cared about their customers at all they wouldn't disable PhysX on nVidia cards, you know, cards their customers bought, when another brand card is detected as the primary rendering device. I don't think people would have to use hacks to make cards work that nVidia has locked out from Adobe Premier. People wouldn't have to use hacks to make SLI work on mobos that nVidia didn't get their cut on. nVidia would not have to have been sued to make good on bumpgate. Those are all instances where nVidia hurts nVidia customers.

The good they do for their shareholders is consequential to JHH being a shareholder.

 

[Keysplayr]

I don't know what difference what I think matters. You aren't going to like it anyway. I don't think nVidia cares one iota about their customers.

If nVidia cared about their customers at all they wouldn't disable PhysX on nVidia cards, you know, cards their customers bought, when another brand card is detected as the primary rendering device. I don't think people would have to use hacks to make cards work that nVidia has locked out from Adobe Premier. People wouldn't have to use hacks to make SLI work on mobos that nVidia didn't get their cut on. nVidia would not have to have been sued to make good on bumpgate. Those are all instances where nVidia hurts nVidia customers.

The good they do for their shareholders is consequential to JHH being a shareholder.

"I don't know what difference what I think matters."

If you truly thought this, you wouldn't be posting your opinions all over these forums. You have something to say, you'll say it because you think it matters. You wouldn't otherwise.

Ande of course this isn't what I asked you. I did not asked if they "cared". I asked quite simply:

"What kind of job do you think Nvidia is doing for it's customers? Whether they be gamers using Nvidia GPUs or Nvidia stockholders."

I know this is a REALLY tough question for you to answer, so I semi-apologize for confronting you with it.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Lets make one thing clear. OPTIMIZATION AND MALICIOUS CODE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. You'd have to blind to think that this stuff is in any way, shape, or form , "optimization".

Show mw source code of both examples.
You know stuff like facts.

The only thing I see in your posts are:
Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Analytical assumptions
Misleading vividness
Slippery slope

They are all fallacies and I see very little to no fact/documentaion for you claims.

That you insist on using flawed information, refuse to acnowlegde facts and mostly just use fallacies, not arguments is your problem.

But that style of posting will ensure that you will not be taken seriously, FYI.

 

[3DVagabond]

Of course this isn't what I asked you. I did not asked if they "cared". I asked quite simply:

"What kind of job do you think Nvidia is doing for it's customers? Whether they be gamers using Nvidia GPUs or Nvidia stockholders."

Sorry. Subtle difference of wording. I think they are doing a reprehensible job in many cases. You can start with the situations I mentioned in the above post.

 

[Keysplayr]

Sorry. Subtle difference of wording. I think they are doing a reprehensible job in many cases. You can start with the situations I mentioned in the above post.

It's called avoiding the question. As I expected you to do.

 

[3DVagabond]

It's called avoiding the question. As I expected you to do.

I don't know how you figure I'm avoiding anything. I think you are avoiding my point. And no reason to apologize for asking the question.

 

[blackened23]

Wow. Now let me make something clear. Whatever Nvidia does, it's for their customers and to attract more customers. They might figure, if they do more, they will come. It seems to be working. It's only going to be so long before the AMD apologists become tired of waiting for AMD to get moving. Be the first to offer AA in a title that lacks it. Inject DX11 patch with core DX11 features into a game for a better experience. Only a matter of time before people get sick of rooting for a company that does not deliver. Eventually, if nothing changes, they will fester and die off. All these accusations are building up. We are seeing them more and more. And every one of them is just an airplane towing a banner about AMD shortcomings, lets be the victim and see where it gets us, inaction attitude. So, keep it up. Keep raising the stink about how evil Nv is and how good AMD is. To me, it shows what AMD isn't doing or can't do. Maybe it's why I like Nvidia better than AMD/ATI. They are do'ers. Not whiners playing the victim card. There are only so many of those cards in the deck to be pulled before someone eventually thinks for themselves.

Sorry for the rambling. Thanks for the thread Blackened23. You drive points home like no other.

I think AMD is doing just fine: They're not playing the victim card per se --they're doing fine performance wise, but without the questionable ethics of nvidia. Come on -- nvidia doing this crap isn't good for consumers. To broadly put malicious code to hurt the experience for non nvidia users? How could you even defend that? At least you're upfront and don't try to pretend that what nvidia is doing is innocent. I think you'd have to be completely blind to think that.

Latest drivers used for both, MLAA / driver 16XAF

Witcher 2 1920x1080 MLAA 16X AF

GTX 590: 65.69
GTX 580: 70.6 fps
Radeon 6970 880/1350: 65.61


Crysis warhead 1920x1080 MLAA 16XAF

GTX 580: 34.58 fps
Radeon 6970 880/1350 (non oc): 33.03 fps


Aliens vs Predator 2010 1920x1080 MLAA 16XAF

GTX 580: 69.4
Radeon 6970 880/1350 (non oc): 64.6



In general the AMD cards do fine -- especially considering the 6970 costs 200$ less than GTX 580, and is the same price as the GTX 570 (and outperforms it). Overclocking raises performance 7-8% but presumably that applies to GTX 580 as well. Here's the way I see it. In games that nvidia doesn't muck with, GTX 580 and 6970 are pretty close to even. They can't win fairly so they're doing everything they can to be unethical and malicious.

Come on. I'm not going to say that nvidia is big and evil, but they could do business perfectly fine by optimizing games for their hardware. Injecting malicious code to disable features on competetors, thats just scumbaggery. How could you even say otherwise. Maybe with new leadership, AMD will do the same thing -- thats about as anti consumer as you can get.

 

[NIGELG]

Wow. Now let me make something clear. Whatever Nvidia does, it's for their customers and to attract more customers. They might figure, if they do more, they will come. It seems to be working. It's only going to be so long before the AMD apologists become tired of waiting for AMD to get moving. Be the first to offer AA in a title that lacks it. Inject DX11 patch with core DX11 features into a game for a better experience. Only a matter of time before people get sick of rooting for a company that does not deliver. Eventually, if nothing changes, they will fester and die off. All these accusations are building up. We are seeing them more and more. And every one of them is just an airplane towing a banner about AMD shortcomings, lets be the victim and see where it gets us, inaction attitude. So, keep it up. Keep raising the stink about how evil Nv is and how good AMD is. To me, it shows what AMD isn't doing or can't do. Maybe it's why I like Nvidia better than AMD/ATI. They are do'ers. Not whiners playing the victim card. There are only so many of those cards in the deck to be pulled before someone eventually thinks for themselves.

Sorry for the rambling. Thanks for the thread Blackened23. You drive points home like no other.

Maybe you like Nvidia because they give you free stuff?:biggrin:.