Why do we resent having to pay for the mistakes others make?

[Svnla]

That is a common misquote of the actual verse and is used to put down the poor and unfortunate who are more than willing to work but have no work...

You quoted my post and where in my post that I said anything about quoting word for word from the Bible? :thumbsdown:

The Bible, being a book, has no ability of speech.

In case you are wondering, yes there is a reason I am pointing this out.

Don't care to wonder. Stop quoting my post and get to the point instead of playing nicky picky game.

 

[Zebo]

I am an owner of three businesses. I work hard. I take all the risk. My latest business is a franchise that we have been trying to start for over a year. I have about $1 million in loans/lease promises, $150K of my cash, and all of my belongings have a lien against them. I am taking a HUGE amount of risk to open this franchise.

I find it incredibly insulting that anyone thinks I should pay for someone else to sit at home and collect a welfare check. I am all about helping those who want to help themselves, but welfare breeds more welfare and it makes me fucking sick. Where were these people when I had sleepless nights, long negotiations, and was signing my entire life away? Nowhere. But they are damned sure to be there with their grubby little hands sticking out trying to get a piece of my income.

Where will I be if this business fails? Out a shitload of money, time with my family, and maybe even a home.

There is a reason franchisers take a percent off your gross not net. Expensing learn and use it.

 

[Zebo]

No. the sarcasm was to point out that your pride means jack in this situation. It would not matter to me if you were a hard working salt-of the earth everyman or a slimebag, your points would carry the same weight.

You could get rid of the preface and still have the same meaning. I know I did not need to know what you did in your life. As if telling us validates your hatred of others.



They do, and they have. Problem is, no system is perfect.



Now here's the challenge. Find out how many actually do this. Now take that number and divide it by the total.

Now, take how much money is awarded to contractors for jobs gotten through the DoD and see what % that $500 hammer makes. Take the bonuses STILL GIVEN to failed companies that were bailed out by the american people and compare that to the money used to do so (and where their profits came from afterwards... definitely not from building homes or highways).

The % is low, and the reaction to it preternaturally high. Is it wrong? Yes, but we spend too much time and attention looking at, as with my analogy, the 2-3 rotten eggs in the bunch and declaring the whole henhouse defective.



That is where we agree.

The difference is, I am not in for removing it from those that do not try. I am just in for trying to find a way to get them to try w/o hurting them by starving them. that rarely works and makes for more to clean up later.

Welfare can be reduced, and productivity can be increased if we find a way to make 95% of the ones who hate fishing learn how to make a birdhouse....

Good points. Welfare or TANF is about 100 billion a year. We gave 3 trillion just to banks last few years or 30 years of welfare. Plus whatever they defrauded/robbed your retirement accounts selling garbage loans to them. I don't hear much whining about that from the right. It's always ppl on the margins, the weakest, they are on about. I don't get it. It's basically chump change as things go compared to corporate/farmer/banker/investor welfare. Where you think the other 3.7 trillion goes?

Self funded - SS and medicaid is half most of the rest is corp welfare.

 

[Zebo]

I won't debate the social issues. People believe in social issues. People rarely change their beliefs based on debate and discussion.

Your opinion seems to discount that many Liberals attack the "Darwinism" from the social side. The belief that improvements for society help everyone (including oneself) in the long run. But of course does have limits. For example, if I start a business and I fail miserably, most Liberals will have no problem making sure I don't go hungry and feel that I shouldn't have to live on the street. However they aren't going to reward my mistake by providing aid in my next attempt to create another business. In addition, I know many liberals that would resent such actions.


You brought up abortion. There is no common ground between conservatives and liberals.

The key difference in abortions is that conservatives and liberals do not see the situation as the same thing. Many conservatives feel as though once a woman is pregnant that baby is alive, even while unborn. Most liberals feel as though the baby isn't alive until its born.

One side feels that you are murdering a living thing, the other side feels that it is not alive yet. There is no Darwinism there between Liberals and Conservatives. Conservatives feel it is murder and will use any avenue prevent/limit/stop this.

Liberal Eisenhower , you know the guy who raised marginal tax rates to 93% to pay off war and built the greatest infrastructure the world had ever seen at the same time, started SBA. Liberals support it and republicans have tried to kill it since. You're just wrong. SBA is what gives the little guy a shot to start a capital intensive business. Liberals love it. The right and old money hate it. They fear real competition.

The SBA was created on July 30, 1953, by President Eisenhower with the signing of the Small Business Act. Its function was and is to "aid, counsel, assist and protect, insofar as is possible, the interests of small business concerns".

The SBA has survived a number of threats to its existence. In 1996, the newly Republican-controlled House of Representatives planned to eliminate the agency.[8] It survived and went on to receive a record high budget in 2000.[9] Renewed efforts by the Bush Administration to end the SBA loan program met congressional resistance, although the SBA's budget was repeatedly cut, and in 2004 certain expenditures were frozen. The Obama Administration has supported the SBA budget. Significant supplemental appropriations for the agency strengthened SBA lending through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 and the Small Business Jobs Act of 2010.[10]

 

[Cerb]

I was just reading in the thread about woman's reproductive rights and health care that some folk don't want to pay for the mistakes others make, obviously abortion for women who 'carelessly' get pregnant. And this carries over into a million other social issues, welfare, drug rehabilitation, etc etc etc.

Because the dogma is that it is murder.

We all pay for others' mistakes. But, many of us would see adding an unwanted child to an already burdened world a rather larger mistake than accidentally or negigently getting pregnant.

The need to allow folk to sink or swim on their own merits, to follow Darwin's model, is really hubris and conceit, the feeling that oneself can make it and is of great value, morally superior and gifted with a work ethic, capacity, ability, intelligence, etc etc etc. And all these skills came at a sacrifice, a dominion of the Will over ones animal nature, good over evil.

But, that's not Darwin's model. We, like many other creatures, sink or swim based on our collective merits. Social Darwinism is not Darwinism. It's selfish and/or egotistical and/or sociopathic nonsense.

Opinions?

You can't fix dogma, nor hubris.

So tell me about some 21 year old refusing to purchase healthcare, then needing emergency ER services after a car accident, and "we" the insured picking up the bill in higher insurance rates for all insured.
Explain that reasoning....

It can be cheaper to be, or at least appear, uninsured, when the ER you are brought to is out of network, so it's a crock of shit either way, with our current health care system.

 

[Moonbeam]

Thanks, Cerb. Nice! Your points raise the perennial issue for me. Why didn't the dogma get you, or if it once did, how did you see beyond it?

I note also that all folk whom I feel are stuffed full of shit agree with each other on it. Birds of dogma pack together it seems, and I agree with your points. How can I know we haven't fallen for something?

 

[spittledip]

Thanks, Cerb. Nice! Your points raise the perennial issue for me. Why didn't the dogma get you, or if it once did, how did you see beyond it?

I note also that all folk whom I feel are stuffed full of shit agree with each other on it. Birds of dogma pack together it seems, and I agree with your points. How can I know we haven't fallen for something?

Are you being purposefully ironic here? Just wondering b/c one can never tell with you.

 

[spittledip]

The safety net is in the end a necessary medicine for society. It's just that it may be a bitter pill to swallow.

These are my sentiments exactly. Nicely summarized.

 

[Cerb]

Thanks, Cerb. Nice! Your points raise the perennial issue for me. Why didn't the dogma get you, or if it once did, how did you see beyond it?

It did, just not the religious dogma. And, I don't know, absurdity just has a habit of outlining itself, eventually.

I note also that all folk whom I feel are stuffed full of shit agree with each other on it. Birds of dogma pack together it seems, and I agree with your points. How can I know we haven't fallen for something?

Potential irony thick as molasses. Until you're being pulled back in, I'm not sure if you can know that you haven't with certainty. Hopefully you can sleep well not knowing if or how much you are being fooled, and worse, how much people trying to fool others are themselves fooled. Maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to be a Christian conservative, if you have paranoid tendencies...

 

[Moonbeam]

It did, just not the religious dogma. And, I don't know, absurdity just has a habit of outlining itself, eventually.

Potential irony thick as molasses. Until you're being pulled back in, I'm not sure if you can know that you haven't with certainty. Hopefully you can sleep well not knowing if or how much you are being fooled, and worse, how much people trying to fool others are themselves fooled. Maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to be a Christian conservative, if you have paranoid tendencies...

Most interesting. I had never heard the term crab mentality but when I followed your link I recognized it immediately as one of the results of groups infected with self hate, the terror that somebody will get well with the implication that there might be something wrong with the group think. We can't admit to a single flaw because it opens the door to the and massive self contempt that lays hidden and repressed.

 

[blankslate]

Moonbeam your premise is untrue....

Everyone who could afford to pay taxes paid in some way for the war in Iraq....

Even if you couldn't pay for taxes you've seen your country suffer a decline in U.s. credibility with citizens of other countries.

 

[Moonbeam]

Moonbeam your premise is untrue....

Everyone who could afford to pay taxes paid in some way for the war in Iraq....

Even if you couldn't pay for taxes you've seen your country suffer a decline in U.s. credibility with citizens of other countries.

I have a number of premises and can't think too well, Can you tell me what premise I have that is wrong?

 

[blankslate]

People don't like to pay for other's mistakes... however the chickenhawks gladly advocate extending wars in the M.E.

People like to pay for some mistakes made by others.

 

[gingermeggs]

Because on the whole, humans are inherently selfish and as long as there is a system in place which allows them to bypass the negative results of their actions, they will abuse that system as much as they can. The ways to deal with human apathy and greed are to A) have a society that pays for the mistakes of others but enforces rigid social structure with an iron fist such that behavior outside of the norm is largely eliminated through severe punishment or B) eliminate those societal safety nets and leave people to deal with their own failings so they're encouraged not to fail in the future. This is one of the fundamental differences between authoritarian and libertarian views. It's tough to maintain a middle ground, because that's where people take advantage of the system resulting in stories like CycloWizards. If society pays for the mistakes of the guy that wrecked his week, what incentive does CW have to be careful that he doen'st wreck somebody elses week? He has been shown that lack of concern for others has no downside.

So option A is your preferred method?

 

[Zebo]

I'm pretty sure bober is B since he's libertarian. Problem is we tried his way for the better part of 6000 years of human civilization until the end of the eighteenth century and the government was made up of and exists to serve the interests solely of the elite and a world of nobles and serfs results.. Sounds like it might work to them though despite history.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

I'm pretty sure bober is B since he's libertarian. Problem is we tried his way for the better part of 6000 years of human civilization until the end of the eighteenth century and the government was made up of and exists to serve the interests solely of the elite and a world of nobles and serfs results.. Sounds like it might work to them though despite history.

Wow clearly you have no clue as to when capitalism came about and how and why it usurped mercantilism (which was the prevailing model for hundreds of years). Or even the knowledge of the differences between mercantilism and capitalism. Or any other systems which predate capitalism as matter of fact, aka feudalism for example which is not even close in ideals to capitalism. In addition the comfort and ease of living you enjoy which was built on the foundations of capitalism not socialism or communist economic policies, etc.

 

[shira]

I was just reading in the thread about woman's reproductive rights and health care that some folk don't want to pay for the mistakes others make, obviously abortion for women who 'carelessly' get pregnant. And this carries over into a million other social issues, welfare, drug rehabilitation, etc etc etc.

What could possibly be the psychology behind such thinking, allowing unwanted children to grow up psychopaths and shoot you in the back? These self reliant types, I guess, all carry, and may even psychologically hope for such an attack, but surely their wives or children are not so well protected. Of course, ones neighborhood and gated community can make some difference. Even God loves gates, no?

So, while for liberals, such selfishness seems like a form of dementia, it has to have a deeper origin than a simple lack of IQ.

And in puzzling about it this is what I thought:

The need to allow folk to sink or swim on their own merits, to follow Darwin's model, is really hubris and conceit, the feeling that oneself can make it and is of great value, morally superior and gifted with a work ethic, capacity, ability, intelligence, etc etc etc. And all these skills came at a sacrifice, a dominion of the Will over ones animal nature, good over evil.

Yes, I think that the key to this thinking is a feeling of superiority and pride because one has mastered ones lower self, that one is not like the rabble and all that because one conformed to the notion of what it is to be a winner.

So having destroyed the happy relaxed cheerfully unconcerned monkey one was born as, and become a productive driven little machine, one looks out on the untrained but living, with disdain. One has paid already in mental health for the success one has in live, and now they want you to pay again. No way, eh?

So those who were most taught and driven to achieve by despising weakness, are actually among us the most sad.

Opinions?

Pretty much the same crowd is advocating that those who don't have health insurance should be allowed to die in the gutter rather than require that hospitals treat them and "raise the cost of MY health care." Never mind that health insurance is out of reach financially for an ever-growing segment of the population.

 

[disappoint]

Wow clearly you have no clue as to when capitalism came about and how and why it usurped mercantilism (which was the prevailing model from hundreds of years). Or even the knowledge of the differences between mercantilism and capitalism. Or any other system which predate capitalism as matter of fact, aka feudalism for example which is not even close in ideals to capitalism. In addition the comfort and ease of living you enjoy was built on the foundations of capitalism not socialism or communist economic policies, etc.

He enjoys? So he really does have a lambo in the garage and hookers and blow in the basement? Or is he just working his tail off so someone else can enjoy it?

 

[LunarRay]

Moonbeam:

The opening para of your OP seems to place under an umbrella a variety of issues that under law are unique to the individual but not to the folks who are looking into the 'fish bowl' and deciding how this or that issue affects them. The viewer almost always has the same attitude when reading the opinion of the SCOTUS. Ultimately it is SCOTUS that decides what society in general must follow - but not always agree with - and the reasons why. I have yet to read an opinion of SCOTUS that used the term 'God' or any of his/her demands or subsequent interpretations as a reason for their opinions. Furthermore, regardless of what was in the mind of the creators of our Constitution or their belief in a God it is the mind of the folks deciding what the words of the Constitution mean and how they apply to us that matters.

So... How does the above respond to the gist of the OP?... Well... It seems to me that folks have yet to separate the Law of the Constitution from the Law of Moses, et. al. Some have the misguided opinion that the Kingdom of Heaven is here on earth and actually exactly within the boundaries of the USA. It seems to me that folks who are the loudest voices on what ought to be are quite happy to leave out quite a few folks who also live in the USA...

IOW, the deeper the religious conviction one has the more they want to force that belief on everyone else when, as I see it, religion is personal between the person and their belief and it is a conduit that does NOT extend beyond them and their belief.

Why do folks wish to extend their religion down the throat of everyone? Cuz they grasp for justification but also and more so a need... a great need that religion sates. Even Patton ordered prayers to help defeat the Germans on his road to victory... "By the grace of God we shall prevail", some say... and "if God is on our side it can't be wrong"... but it is what motivates that remains the mystery... each has their unique little issue that they can't or refuse to touch... they simply occupy their mind with something that controls their motivations without ever seeing how it might be something other than God. That it might be them is seen as an attack of the Devil. Bigotry and its awful hate is disguised as a Godly endeavor... among other nifty 'attacks'.

Abortion, for example, under God is wrong and a sin but under law 'Roe' prevails and there it is... The law must be wrong until they themselves undergo an abortion... but they can now ask for forgiveness or some such... It is ok to do it so long as you ask for forgiveness... from God.


EDIT: Moonster... IF God is within the individual imagine the problem with asking oneself to forgive oneself for doing what one knows to be wrong... fast to the rubber room, I presume...

 

[Lithium381]

but you get so much back from society ! ! ! like police that take 20 minutes to get to your emergency only to have to write a report on it! you also get sub-par union road work that's purposfully done poorly so in 5 years geuss who has to repair it? that's right, your public unions! yay! you get protection from outside threats, oh no we have to play security theatre everytime we want to travel. Thanks society for taking 40% of my life

 

[CycloWizard]

So take away personal responsibility and you'll gladly commit murder and robbery. Do you have any compassion? Would you not feel remorse for taking another's life?

Many people will do whatever they can get away with. The kids in college now have been told their entire lives that nothing they do is their fault. The system of "compassion" you and Moonbeam preach is the driving force for their inability to behave in a responsible manner.

I sincerly hope that people who cross your path each day are not as judgemental of you as you are of them. Earlier in the thread you alluded to having a career as a professor or teacher at a university. I'm slightly disturbed that your career places you in a position of authority over young students who are seeking to educate themselves. Do you also fantasize about "offing" students who hand in their assignments a day late?

No one almost kills me when they hand in an assignment late. If someone is perfectly willing to roll the dice and kill someone in order to tweet while driving, is it wrong to remove that person from society? The same driver almost hit a pedestrian who had just cleared her lane of traffic. If the student had hit him at 40 mph, he would surely have been maimed or died. It's interesting that you demonize me rather than the other driver, a reckless zombie who has no regard for the lives of others as evidenced by actions. I've never heard anyone cry out in dismay when zombies are shotgunned by the thousands in movies. What is a zombie but a human mindlessly killing other humans? The difference is that I know it's not my job to be judge, jury, and executioner. I didn't get out of my car and kick the student in the face. I made a personal decision to extend unwarranted compassion to the zombie. I called the cops. The cops are there to enforce the law because something as nebulous as compassion cannot be enforced, much less institutionalized. Relying on compassion to run society is resulting in the zombie apocalypse as we speak.

edit: Some of you don't seem to realize the reason government exists. It is to ensure rights of its citizens. Specifically, rights to life, liberty, and property. It's not to make its citizens feel all warm and fuzzy. It's not to tell them "Don't sweat it" when they almost kill someone out of complete negligence. In this case, my rights were violated and the other party is skating away while I foot the bill. Anyone defending the student has no concept of what rights are or the purpose of government and is effectively enabling these shenanigans. You can call me heartless or whatever you want, but if government isn't going to secure my rights, then I will have to. This is not a joke. I guess this guy should have made tea for the guys invading his home with assault rifles in the middle of the night? Maybe he can compassion them into submission when other guys return and shoot up his house?

 

[FoBoT]

Which of course also makes no sense. When everybody is forced to give that takes a load off the responsible who will give anyway. When the irresponsible are forced to contribute to some need, the responsible who would cover that need our of a sense of responsibility don't have to give as much. This means they will have extra to give as they wish.

you completely ignored my point that intent , ie willingness or lack thereof, is important

i'll take that to mean you don't care if people want to serve (help) or not, you only care about the end, not the means to the end

 

[marvdmartian]

You're over-thinking it, Moonbeam.

How about, some people would rather see parents teach (and society support) their children how to be responsible adults, instead of teaching them that life is full of "re-do's"?

How about we teach kids to be responsible for their actions, instead of bailing them out every time they make a mistake, so they never learn from their mistakes?

How about we teach that life is precious, every day is a gift, and to carelessly throw away life is wrong? And to do so because it's inconvenient to your poorly thought out life plans is wrong in so many more ways??

Life didn't hand you a "re-do" button, so stop acting like it did.

 

[IGBT]

your next door neighbor is a financial idiot and constantly makes mistakes handling money and he's about to loose his house. I need you to step in and solve all his financial problems so he can stay in his house and continue to be an idiot.

 

[dank69]

your next door neighbor is a financial idiot and constantly makes mistakes handling money and he's about to loose his house. I need you to step in and solve all his financial problems so he can stay in his house and continue to be an idiot.

My next door neighbor doesn't know the difference between lose and loose. I need you to step in and explain to him why he shouldn't call other people idiots.