Why do we resent having to pay for the mistakes others make?

[woolfe9999]

This, although I'd prefer providing opportunity over substance for those willing to take advantage of it. But I'm willing to pay for food and shelter even for the chronically lazy as the price of civilization. I'm just not willing to like it, or to do it without complaining.

There's an innate sense that if I'm doing my part, others should do their parts as well. That's basic fairness. Most of us don't mind having to pay for others' mistakes, but we expect them to get back up on their hind legs and help pull the wagon as soon as they are able. Saying "Oops, I've had a baby so now you have to support us both for the next eighteen years" is bullshit and unfair to those of us who live responsibly.

I like what you say, actually, about being willing to do it but not without complaining. I'm not one of those people who doesn't understand the complaints coming from the right about social safety nets. I get it. Many people who receive assistance could probably try harder. At least some of them probably *would* try harder if the assistance wasn't there. It's just that gritting ones teeth and stomaching it is the lesser of the two evils when the other evil is living in a society that is dominated by skid row. This is 21st century America, not the Hobbesian nightmare of the old world where life must be nasty, brutish and short.

I'd go for the concept of absolute self-responsibility if there really was such a thing as absolute equality of opportunity to go along with it. But the sad truth is, everyone isn't born equally smart, equally talented, or equally lucky. In the end, people's fortunes do vary and not just in a winning the lottery kind of way. Two people can even make the exact same mistake and for one person it ends up a harmless error that costs them nothing while the other it costs him everything. People will look at the guy whose one fuck up cost him everything and say, you screwed up; that's your problem, but ignore the fact that the other guy who made the same mistake is flying high. Heck, the person saying tough luck might even have made the same mistake himself.

Of course, the unlucky or genetically stupid and/or untalented and/or disabled are only part of the story. There are also those with sufficient luck and talent who would just rather live off someone else's dime, and there is no good way for any system to separate the one from the other.

The safety net is in the end a necessary medicine for society. It's just that it may be a bitter pill to swallow.

- wolf

 

[Doppel]

edit: it's probably because we all hate ourselves so much

Definitely self hate.

 

[Mursilis]

To look at things a bit differently consider-

A man is hungry and whether through his fault or not he is hungry. You do a good thing and give him a fish. He comes to you every day and you feed him. Then he says his wife is hungry as well. You do the compassionate thing and feed her too. This goes on and one day the man says that he and his wife are having a child. It is not the childs fault the man does not work. You must feed him too. There is another child and another. It is your obligation to feed them they are entitled to your fish. You feed them. Then one day a woman barely older than a child comes to you and says she is having a child. You must feed it. You ask about her husband and she looks at you puzzled. "Why do I need one?" You might respond "To provide for your child". She replies "I do not understand. You provide for us. You must do so now". You might reply "But it is good to provide for your own". She- "But why are you being so cruel? You gave my mother and her parents fish every day. Why do you punish me now? I do not understand work because I never needed to do so, and the more children I have the more fish you must provide. You have brought me to this. You owe me and mine fish forever and it is your fault."

You do just that because you cannot deny the helpless their food.

Do you congratulate yourself on your selflessness?

Of course in real life, the giver of the fish wouldn't actually be the one catching the majority of the fish distributed - he'd develop this thing called "taxes", and take (by force if necessary) his neighbors' fish, and distribute those as well. But of course the giver of the fish would keep to himself the smug satisfaction of having been generous and compassionate, even if he did not toil to catch the fish he distributed to others. He might even be willing to accept accolades for his generosity.

 

[Ninjahedge]

To look at things a bit differently consider-

A man is hungry and whether through his fault or not he is hungry. You do a good thing and give him a fish. He comes to you every day and you feed him. Then he says his wife is hungry as well. You do the compassionate thing and feed her too. This goes on and one day the man says that he and his wife are having a child. It is not the childs fault the man does not work. You must feed him too. There is another child and another. It is your obligation to feed them they are entitled to your fish. You feed them. Then one day a woman barely older than a child comes to you and says she is having a child. You must feed it. You ask about her husband and she looks at you puzzled. "Why do I need one?" You might respond "To provide for your child". She replies "I do not understand. You provide for us. You must do so now". You might reply "But it is good to provide for your own". She- "But why are you being so cruel? You gave my mother and her parents fish every day. Why do you punish me now? I do not understand work because I never needed to do so, and the more children I have the more fish you must provide. You have brought me to this. You owe me and mine fish forever and it is your fault."

You do just that because you cannot deny the helpless their food.

Do you congratulate yourself on your selflessness?

And with this we get back to the root of the proverb and my point.

You give a man a fish so he is not hungry, but then you train him to fish so that you will not have to do so every day. Eventually he is providing fish to his own family and, hopefully, trains his OWN son to fish.

And then we tax them all..... seriously!



The problem here is simple, but the solution is not. As I have said in other posts, there are cases that will not work with just about any system, the key is to try and minimize that. If our problem is hungry people we have to find out why. One good example is things like Day Care. In some countries, the government subsidizes it so that women can go to work.

This is good for married couples in that it gives them more discretionary income. It is VITAL in single parent families in that it makes it so the mother CAN work at a low wage job w/o spending $1200 a month on child care (and of which a portion comes back in the form of reduced Welfare checks, food stamps and possible taxes).

This will NOT work in all cases, and will probably have a net loss, but stats showing that working women have statistically less kids than non-working women is one thing to consider when talking about a plan to "help".

You do not put an ace bandage over a severed limb and call it a day. You do not give a cancer patient prescription painkillers and tell them "good luck".



Back OT. 90% of people are lazy fucks that do not want to do anythnig. The libs want to throw money at the problem and have someone else handle it, and the conservatives want to NOT throw money at it and absolve themselves because it is "that guys fault, not mine".

Only the good people either get off their asses to help personally, get involved in the process, or demand programs that actually work for the people who need it. Whether that be a local church group or missionary that does not force people to come to their sermons, or the granola cruncher that weaves a new roof for Aborigines in downtown Detroit..... it does not matter. They are willing to put bodies where their ideals lay rather than point fingers at someone else.

 

[Ninjahedge]

The safety net is in the end a necessary medicine for society. It's just that it may be a bitter pill to swallow.

- wolf

I think the safety net should not be thought of, or designed as a "net".

The problem is, it is easier, and cheaper, to set up a soup kitchen than to rehab a drunk and train him to be a carpenter. Conversely, it is easier to complain about the soup kitchen than to set up those clinics and schools.

Akin to the 20+ year old "temporary" school structures I saw while doing inspections in CA after the Northridge earthquake, we like to do the quick and easy and are unwilling to pay for the long term fix.

 

[BoberFett]

And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.
victuals

But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat.

And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes.

He said, Bring them hither to me.

And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.

And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.

Leave it to a lefty to aspire for a world where a magical space baby creates fish and bread out of thin air...

 

[Mursilis]

Leave it to a lefty to aspire for a world where a magical space baby creates fish and bread out of thin air...

Seriously. I thought his followers were considered loathsome people around here.

 

[Moonbeam]

Seriously. I thought his followers were considered loathsome people around here.

I think you refer to pretenders, not followers. The latter are rather uncommon, in my opinion.

 

[Atreus21]

I was just reading in the thread about woman's reproductive rights and health care that some folk don't want to pay for the mistakes others make, obviously abortion for women who 'carelessly' get pregnant. And this carries over into a million other social issues, welfare, drug rehabilitation, etc etc etc.

The issue with abortion is that you're killing someone. Not that we don't want to pay for it.

What could possibly be the psychology behind such thinking, allowing unwanted children to grow up psychopaths and shoot you in the back?

Yes, much better that we kill them to spare ourselves the risk, and them the embarrassment.

The need to allow folk to sink or swim on their own merits, to follow Darwin's model, is really hubris and conceit, the feeling that oneself can make it and is of great value, morally superior and gifted with a work ethic, capacity, ability, intelligence, etc etc etc. And all these skills came at a sacrifice, a dominion of the Will over ones animal nature, good over evil.

It's called respecting someone's intelligence and capacity for adult behavior, as opposed to treating them like children who can't control themselves.

Yes, I think that the key to this thinking is a feeling of superiority and pride because one has mastered ones lower self, that one is not like the rabble and all that because one conformed to the notion of what it is to be a winner.

So having destroyed the happy relaxed cheerfully unconcerned monkey one was born as, and become a productive driven little machine, one looks out on the untrained but living, with disdain. One has paid already in mental health for the success one has in live, and now they want you to pay again. No way, eh?

So those who were most taught and driven to achieve by despising weakness, are actually among us the most sad.

Despising weakness? This from someone whose first sentence was critical of those who oppose abortion? Is there any violent act to be found anywhere on earth that compares to this level of taking advantage of a person's weakness in order to deprive them of their life?

 

[IGBT]

thus the rationale for drug testing.

 

[Moonbeam]

Leave it to a lefty to aspire for a world where a magical space baby creates fish and bread out of thin air...

What is the difference between you and some bum on the street other than some magical belief you have, in his opinion, that you can succeed. Consider that what is believed as factual in one realm may potentialize what was thought impossible in another. When you want the door to hear you speak to the wall. Remember too, that you live is a time of great spiritual occlusion where almost no real psychological information trickles down to people, and that, thousands of years ago there may have been folk thousands of years more advanced in their understanding of the mind than any you may know of today. From very distant times there are reports of hidden schools of knowledge if you know where to look for them.

 

[Moonbeam]

I like what you say, actually, about being willing to do it but not without complaining. I'm not one of those people who doesn't understand the complaints coming from the right about social safety nets. I get it. Many people who receive assistance could probably try harder. At least some of them probably *would* try harder if the assistance wasn't there. It's just that gritting ones teeth and stomaching it is the lesser of the two evils when the other evil is living in a society that is dominated by skid row. This is 21st century America, not the Hobbesian nightmare of the old world where life must be nasty, brutish and short.

I'd go for the concept of absolute self-responsibility if there really was such a thing as absolute equality of opportunity to go along with it. But the sad truth is, everyone isn't born equally smart, equally talented, or equally lucky. In the end, people's fortunes do vary and not just in a winning the lottery kind of way. Two people can even make the exact same mistake and for one person it ends up a harmless error that costs them nothing while the other it costs him everything. People will look at the guy whose one fuck up cost him everything and say, you screwed up; that's your problem, but ignore the fact that the other guy who made the same mistake is flying high. Heck, the person saying tough luck might even have made the same mistake himself.

Of course, the unlucky or genetically stupid and/or untalented and/or disabled are only part of the story. There are also those with sufficient luck and talent who would just rather live off someone else's dime, and there is no good way for any system to separate the one from the other.

The safety net is in the end a necessary medicine for society. It's just that it may be a bitter pill to swallow.

- wolf

Very nice and if you put that with the teach folk how to fish we are off to the races.

In order to help people you have to help them get past the mental issues that prevent them from helping themselves, their self hate and feeling that they are worthless, and in order to do that you need to create a situation in which they can do something that builds self respect. It is very difficult to overlay a foundation of deep feelings of failure with transient success. It has to be fortified over and over until hope returns. And it would be of enormous value also if it were accompanied by psychoanalysis.

Even better, of course, is to change the culture in which we live, to prevent children from growing up in retched conditions that tell them over and over again that they are worthless.

But all this is very hard to do because the folk who have the means to do it feel worthless too. The world we see about us is a reflection of how we feel. The world is dying because we are.

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

I am an owner of three businesses. I work hard. I take all the risk. My latest business is a franchise that we have been trying to start for over a year. I have about $1 million in loans/lease promises, $150K of my cash, and all of my belongings have a lien against them. I am taking a HUGE amount of risk to open this franchise.

I find it incredibly insulting that anyone thinks I should pay for someone else to sit at home and collect a welfare check. I am all about helping those who want to help themselves, but welfare breeds more welfare and it makes me fucking sick. Where were these people when I had sleepless nights, long negotiations, and was signing my entire life away? Nowhere. But they are damned sure to be there with their grubby little hands sticking out trying to get a piece of my income.

Where will I be if this business fails? Out a shitload of money, time with my family, and maybe even a home.

 

[ky54]

This. If I am bound by the rules of the game, then why am I penalized when someone else breaks them? If living by the rules is the price of being part of society, what do we do when someone breaks the rules? The current system, where those who game the system, are not fit to live in society.

I'm not disagreeing with you but is there anything short of death the person could do to make things right with you? By your measurement of justice if I'm offended and thereby damaged mentally by someone who disagrees with me I should be able to reach for my 45 and blow their head off?

 

[BoberFett]

What is the difference between you and some bum on the street other than some magical belief you have, in his opinion, that you can succeed. Consider that what is believed as factual in one realm may potentialize what was thought impossible in another. When you want the door to hear you speak to the wall. Remember too, that you live is a time of great spiritual occlusion where almost no real psychological information trickles down to people, and that, thousands of years ago there may have been folk thousands of years more advanced in their understanding of the mind than any you may know of today. From very distant times there are reports of hidden schools of knowledge if you know where to look for them.

Great, when you can conjure food out of thin air and feed the world without anybody having to sweat for it, let me know. Until then we have a world where some people actually have to work, while some live off of the backs of others.

Also just for fun, look at the outrage that came from some of the lefties here when I was sponging off funemployment for a couple years. People seemed pretty pissed that I was enjoying a paid vacation on their dime, in distinct contrast to this thread where the left seems to think it's society's duty to pick up the slack for the lazy.

 

[Ninjahedge]

I am an owner of three businesses. I work hard. I take all the risk. My latest business is a franchise that we have been trying to start for over a year. I have about $1 million in loans/lease promises, $150K of my cash, and all of my belongings have a lien against them. I am taking a HUGE amount of risk to open this franchise.

I find it incredibly insulting that anyone thinks I should pay for someone else to sit at home and collect a welfare check. I am all about helping those who want to help themselves, but welfare breeds more welfare and it makes me fucking sick. Where were these people when I had sleepless nights, long negotiations, and was signing my entire life away? Nowhere. But they are damned sure to be there with their grubby little hands sticking out trying to get a piece of my income.

Where will I be if this business fails? Out a shitload of money, time with my family, and maybe even a home.

Congrats, here's your prize.

The problem is, you have just lumped almost anyone into the same category. Welfare is just antibiotic cream. It helps with some of the symptoms but it does not cure what lies beneath the surface.

And to answer your own question, would you like it if you were forced to starve because there was no welfare after someone sued your company and left you with nothing? That Welfare net can help a person like you get back up and out.

What needs to be figured out is how to get the few left that do not WANT to get out, to get out. You chuck them on the street and that won't work. You imprison them for misdemeanors and that does not work (and is expensive). So what can you use to help turn them productive?


The main problem we have is we look at the bad eggs in one basket and throw the whole coup into the thresher. We have to find out what went wrong and fix it and not resort to extreme emotional "solutions" that, in reality, would cause more SOCIETAL harm than good.

 

[werepossum]

No. By all means, teach the person to fish so that they can fend for themselves for a lifetime. They will, in turn, teach others to fish and so on. Then each of the persons in your example will become self reliant. The quality of life will have been increased for all including the narrator of your lesson since they will not be burdening him (or her) with thier needs.

You miss his point. Many people refuse to be taught to fish; instead, they continue to demand fish as their right. For the mere fact of their existence, they expect a portion of your labor.

And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.
victuals

But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat.

And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes.

He said, Bring them hither to me.

And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.

And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.

You may be A son of G-d, but unless you are THE son of G-d those five loaves and two fishes go only as far as five loaves and two fishes can be expected to go. Or to paraphrase - every time you give charity, you and yours do without something. Now, most of us can do without lots of the things we enjoy, and I do consider providing basic necessities for the lazy as part of the price of civilization. But that doesn't mean the lazy have any right to that charity, merely that they take advantage of those who do their share and more.

 

[werepossum]

I like what you say, actually, about being willing to do it but not without complaining. I'm not one of those people who doesn't understand the complaints coming from the right about social safety nets. I get it. Many people who receive assistance could probably try harder. At least some of them probably *would* try harder if the assistance wasn't there. It's just that gritting ones teeth and stomaching it is the lesser of the two evils when the other evil is living in a society that is dominated by skid row. This is 21st century America, not the Hobbesian nightmare of the old world where life must be nasty, brutish and short.

I'd go for the concept of absolute self-responsibility if there really was such a thing as absolute equality of opportunity to go along with it. But the sad truth is, everyone isn't born equally smart, equally talented, or equally lucky. In the end, people's fortunes do vary and not just in a winning the lottery kind of way. Two people can even make the exact same mistake and for one person it ends up a harmless error that costs them nothing while the other it costs him everything. People will look at the guy whose one fuck up cost him everything and say, you screwed up; that's your problem, but ignore the fact that the other guy who made the same mistake is flying high. Heck, the person saying tough luck might even have made the same mistake himself.

Of course, the unlucky or genetically stupid and/or untalented and/or disabled are only part of the story. There are also those with sufficient luck and talent who would just rather live off someone else's dime, and there is no good way for any system to separate the one from the other.

The safety net is in the end a necessary medicine for society. It's just that it may be a bitter pill to swallow.

- wolf

Exactly.

I am an owner of three businesses. I work hard. I take all the risk. My latest business is a franchise that we have been trying to start for over a year. I have about $1 million in loans/lease promises, $150K of my cash, and all of my belongings have a lien against them. I am taking a HUGE amount of risk to open this franchise.

I find it incredibly insulting that anyone thinks I should pay for someone else to sit at home and collect a welfare check. I am all about helping those who want to help themselves, but welfare breeds more welfare and it makes me fucking sick. Where were these people when I had sleepless nights, long negotiations, and was signing my entire life away? Nowhere. But they are damned sure to be there with their grubby little hands sticking out trying to get a piece of my income.

Where will I be if this business fails? Out a shitload of money, time with my family, and maybe even a home.

Well put. People like you are why we enjoy the standard of living we do - why we even can help the lazy.

I really wish we could break the cycle of welfare dependency, and I think the reforms passed by the Pubbies and signed by Clinton went a good ways toward that goal. But as Wolfe implies, it's pretty much impossible to separate those who would work given opportunity, and those who would never work, but would turn to theft or begging. In the end, about all we can do is to try providing opportunity and education, to allow those willing to work to raise themselves up and off the public dole.

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

Congrats, here's your prize.
...snip...

Thanks for the flippant response. Just acknowledge that people like myself drive this country.

What I want is for people to be given help within reason. I want severe penalties for those abusing the system, because the abusers ruin it for everyone. I want help to eventually end. Did you ever see the video of Ol' Dirty Bastard picking up his food stamps in his limo? When asked why he does it, he says it is because it is free money. Or the girl recently who won a million dollar lottery and was still collecting welfare and food stamps... why? Because she still didn't have a job. This type of stuff should have such a stiff penalty (think 10 years in prison minimum) that nobody partakes in it.

I'm not worried about my family. If we fail, I am the type of person who will turn it around. I do want limited government assistance for those who need it. I think welfare should only be given to those who have a (low-paying) job or are students. Help people who are willing to help themselves and let everyone else (their welfare babies included) starve for all I care, because those people ruin the system for everyone else. There is no accountability, no pejorative action, and that needs to change.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Thanks for the flippant response. Just acknowledge that people like myself drive this country.

No. the sarcasm was to point out that your pride means jack in this situation. It would not matter to me if you were a hard working salt-of the earth everyman or a slimebag, your points would carry the same weight.

You could get rid of the preface and still have the same meaning. I know I did not need to know what you did in your life. As if telling us validates your hatred of others.

What I want is for people to be given help within reason. I want severe penalties for those abusing the system, because the abusers ruin it for everyone.

They do, and they have. Problem is, no system is perfect.

I want help to eventually end. Did you ever see the video of Ol' Dirty Bastard picking up his food stamps in his limo? When asked why he does it, he says it is because it is free money. Or the girl recently who won a million dollar lottery and was still collecting welfare and food stamps... why? Because she still didn't have a job. This type of stuff should have such a stiff penalty (think 10 years in prison minimum) that nobody partakes in it.

Now here's the challenge. Find out how many actually do this. Now take that number and divide it by the total.

Now, take how much money is awarded to contractors for jobs gotten through the DoD and see what % that $500 hammer makes. Take the bonuses STILL GIVEN to failed companies that were bailed out by the american people and compare that to the money used to do so (and where their profits came from afterwards... definitely not from building homes or highways).

The % is low, and the reaction to it preternaturally high. Is it wrong? Yes, but we spend too much time and attention looking at, as with my analogy, the 2-3 rotten eggs in the bunch and declaring the whole henhouse defective.

I'm not worried about my family. If we fail, I am the type of person who will turn it around. I do want limited government assistance for those who need it. I think welfare should only be given to those who have a (low-paying) job or are students. Help people who are willing to help themselves and let everyone else (their welfare babies included) starve for all I care, because those people ruin the system for everyone else. There is no accountability, no pejorative action, and that needs to change.

That is where we agree.

The difference is, I am not in for removing it from those that do not try. I am just in for trying to find a way to get them to try w/o hurting them by starving them. that rarely works and makes for more to clean up later.

Welfare can be reduced, and productivity can be increased if we find a way to make 95% of the ones who hate fishing learn how to make a birdhouse....

 

[Moonbeam]

No. the sarcasm was to point out that your pride means jack in this situation. It would not matter to me if you were a hard working salt-of the earth everyman or a slimebag, your points would carry the same weight.

You could get rid of the preface and still have the same meaning. I know I did not need to know what you did in your life. As if telling us validates your hatred of others.



They do, and they have. Problem is, no system is perfect.



Now here's the challenge. Find out how many actually do this. Now take that number and divide it by the total.

Now, take how much money is awarded to contractors for jobs gotten through the DoD and see what % that $500 hammer makes. Take the bonuses STILL GIVEN to failed companies that were bailed out by the american people and compare that to the money used to do so (and where their profits came from afterwards... definitely not from building homes or highways).

The % is low, and the reaction to it preternaturally high. Is it wrong? Yes, but we spend too much time and attention looking at, as with my analogy, the 2-3 rotten eggs in the bunch and declaring the whole henhouse defective.



That is where we agree.

The difference is, I am not in for removing it from those that do not try. I am just in for trying to find a way to get them to try w/o hurting them by starving them. that rarely works and makes for more to clean up later.

Welfare can be reduced, and productivity can be increased if we find a way to make 95% of the ones who hate fishing learn how to make a birdhouse....

I think it's fairly easy. Guarantee everybody a job, money for something the government sets up that will help others. Let the hungry cook food for the hungry, let them wash their own dishes, clean their own spaces, build their own homes, saw logs by hand, use magnets to collect iron for nails from beach sand, etc and teach them how to do it. Set us a society where the poor can police themselves and life off grid, where at least they can live with some minimum decency. Give nothing to any who do not give some pathetic minimum back. Pay the partially disabled to care for the totally disabled, etc. That's right, cut the business world out of the their supply line. Let them do for cheap what it would cost an arm and a leg to buy in the private economy. Put them in the country where the can and must grow their own food and teach them how they have been the most damaged by self hate.

 

[Zebo]

You can turn this around and ask why should others suffer for anothers misdeeds and irresponsibility? We are all expected to pull our own weight through life and not doing so should have some consequence or else no one will. But really it's just a matter of degrees everyone feels state should have some role in general welfare. I don't have a problem extending abortion benefit nor UHC.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Zebo, the problem comes when that "hurt" kills one of the people who was "responsible".

In a perfect world, those that did not live life properly would only do damage to themselves, but they don't. the damage they do is to many around them, which effects us all in one way or another.

100 people ride a bus. One takes a crap in the middle of it. He gets kicked off but the crap is still there.

I ain't cleaning it up.

 

[1prophet]

Did the Bible say something about if you don't work, you don't eat?

That is a common misquote of the actual verse and is used to put down the poor and unfortunate who are more than willing to work but have no work.


Actual verse

For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

in context

2 Thessalonians 3



Warning Against Idleness

6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.” 11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat. 13 And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

I am an owner of three businesses. I work hard. I take all the risk. My latest business is a franchise that we have been trying to start for over a year. I have about $1 million in loans/lease promises, $150K of my cash, and all of my belongings have a lien against them. I am taking a HUGE amount of risk to open this franchise.

I find it incredibly insulting that anyone thinks I should pay for someone else to sit at home and collect a welfare check. I am all about helping those who want to help themselves, but welfare breeds more welfare and it makes me fucking sick. Where were these people when I had sleepless nights, long negotiations, and was signing my entire life away? Nowhere. But they are damned sure to be there with their grubby little hands sticking out trying to get a piece of my income.

Where will I be if this business fails? Out a shitload of money, time with my family, and maybe even a home.

I wholly agree with your point and to further it I would like to add mine as well along side it. For it is my view that you have probably done more of a service to society by taking risks, working hard, and establishing these businesses which employ other people then government has by taxing individuals like yourself to pay others to "sit on their coach" and collect unemployment checks.

However individuals such as the OP do not view any inherit value be it economic or social in the risks you have taken. Neither do they value the hard work and sleepless nights you have spent in establishing these businesses as an individual or the opportunities you have provided to others in return via your efforts.

The OP's view however is not merely just based on a lack of understanding or ignorance but in fact is based part in parcel on the core of collectivist ideologies which view the indivdual and his/her efforts as being irrelevant to the needs and desires of the majority. Thus your labors can be easily dismissed and your rights trampled over to justify their need to take from you without your consent.

Essentially all the OP views is "What he could do" with your money rather then "What you could do with your money" in regards to everything you have accomplished thus far because he places no real value on you the indivdual or the incentives which motivate you to succeed.

Hence the OP sees you as just another entity that needs to have their motivation to succeed robbed from them to feed and fulfill their own collectivist agenda that devalues indivdual effort and penalizes success, personal responsibility and all other virtues that would support other individuals to seek avenues to to better themselves. Thus in the end personal responsibility, hard work, and motivation are frowned upon, if not detested and deemed to be core values of "unsustainable greed", etc and you are public enemy number one who is to be made into a villain because you value the effort and risks you have taken but those who adhere to the above mention collectivist ideology see absolutely no value in these endeavors.