Why do we, as citizens, really need guns?

[CKent]

We don't necessarily need guns.

We need a broad definitiion of freedom which allows us to own guns, smoke pot, marry a person of the same gender, or basically whatever else we want so long as it doesn't affect others. Unfortunately people on both sides of the political spectrum want to turn us into a western Afghanistan by systematically destroying freedom. It's my fucking life, get the hell out of it. Get a fucking hobby.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: CKent
We don't need them, but we need a broad definitiion of freedom, which allows us to own them, smoke pot, marry a person of the same gender, or basically whatever else we want so long as it doesn't affect others. Unfortunately people on both sides of the political spectrum want to turn us into a western Afghanistan by systematically destroying freedom.

Yeah, it's funny how the conservatives want to protect gun rights but couldn't care less about the rights of homosexuals.

 

[JDMnAR1]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: CKent
We don't need them, but we need a broad definitiion of freedom, which allows us to own them, smoke pot, marry a person of the same gender, or basically whatever else we want so long as it doesn't affect others. Unfortunately people on both sides of the political spectrum want to turn us into a western Afghanistan by systematically destroying freedom.

Yeah, it's funny how the conservatives want to protect gun rights but couldn't care less about the rights of homosexuals.

Which constitutional amendment addreses marriage again, I can't seem to remember?

EDIT: And if a homosexual wants to own a gun, more power to him or her.

 

[sourceninja]

I need and wear a gun for numerous reasons.
1) For personal protection - The police are not under any obligation to protect me. I live near areas where there have been riots.
2) For protection of my family - See 1.
3) For protection of my property - See 1. In fact, in this economy this will be more important.
4) For protection from my government. Yes this sounds crazy, but this was the main reason I believe the founder fathers made the 2nd amendment.
5) As a hobby. I love target shooting and pistol shooting. I love shooting automatic weapons, I love long range target shooting. I find it fun and stress revealing. No different then archery or basketball. Yes, I need a assault weapon for this.
6) Hunting. I do not hunt, but having a good rifle will allow me to feed my family should I ever need to. I learned to hunt as a child. If I was to lose my job today, I could still go out into the woods near my home and take home a deer or rabbit.
7) To defend my country against invaders. If we were ever attacked and the US military was unable to respond, those of us who are armed would probably be in high demand. Yes, the idea of a 'red dawn' type situation is silly as hell. But still, it is a valid reason to own a weapon. I believe Switzerland requires all men to join the military and keep weapons in their homes.
8)Investment. Recently with the rising costs of weapons and ammo (thanks to all the crazies claiming obama is going to ban all guns on the planet), the prices of firearms and ammo have skyrocketed. I bought a few thousand rounds of ammo while it was cheap. I could sell it right now for about twice what I paid. I could sell my AR right now for about 500.00 more then I paid.
9) Family history. My family has been passing down a pistol for a long time. Guns and knives can bring a sense of history to a family. It can help you get in touch with your ancestors and really give a sense of responsibility and respect to the person you hand it down to. I hope that if I ever have children I can give them my weapons, and I know that when my father passes the pistol handed to him from his father from his father from his father will be given to me.

How would I fix gun control? More rules about gun shows. More training requirements for carry permits. Mandatory age appropriate gun training in schools (how to identify a gun, how to check if a gun is loaded, what to do if you find a gun, how to safely handle a gun and shoot it, etc).

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Three points.

1. You would need the state of the art weapons, which at the time it was written was handguns and bolt action rifles and today they are everything from jets to haubitses to tanks to RPG's and so on and so forth, to be able to have the slightest chance against an army not on your side.
2. If the army is on your side, you don't need any weapon.
3. An illegal gun is nothing but a firearm you buy legally and file off the serial number off, that is what pretty much ALL illegal guns in the US are.

Remember the Finland school shooting? IF the dad had followed the law and kept his gun in his safe as he SHOULD HAVE instead of in the bedroom drawer, that would never have happened.

I don't mind people owning guns, i own quite a few myself but i DO mind that people keep them in their cabinets and bedroom drawers when they are not even in the room themeselves, THAT is irresponsible, if you have a permit to carry you keep it in a safe or on your person until you are close enough to put it down on an area where no one can grab it before you can.

Unfortunantly, VERY few gun owners are responsible gun owners.

I would NEVER leave a gun lying around without my personal supervision, not ANYWHERE, to do so is to be fucked up in the head.

 

[NeoV]

Get serious ZM

the BATF has neither the money nor the resources it needs to get serious about tracking down 'straw' buyers - the NRA loves to point out some mistaken case where a war vet has his gun taken away or some sob story like that, but the truth of the matter is that the ATF is seriously undermanned and underfunded to do any serious policing of the gun dealers around the country. They audit gun dealers no more than once per year - and that is during a good year - and gun shops aren't even required to report quantity details - they aren't looking for 'straw' buyers at all - in fact, there is no law that requires a gun dealer to report a buyer - regardless of how many guns they buy - how stupid is that?

Those 'special sessions' that are just political grandstanding have resulted in England and Germany passing very restrictive gun laws in the last two decades - I'd hardly call that grandstanding, I'd call that taking action - agree or disagree with the outcome - at least they had the balls to do something.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Three points.

1. You would need the state of the art weapons, which at the time it was written was handguns and bolt action rifles and today they are everything from jets to haubitses to tanks to RPG's and so on and so forth, to be able to have the slightest chance against an army not on your side.
2. If the army is on your side, you don't need any weapon.
3. An illegal gun is nothing but a firearm you buy legally and file off the serial number off, that is what pretty much ALL illegal guns in the US are.

Remember the Finland school shooting? IF the dad had followed the law and kept his gun in his safe as he SHOULD HAVE instead of in the bedroom drawer, that would never have happened.

I don't mind people owning guns, i own quite a few myself but i DO mind that people keep them in their cabinets and bedroom drawers when they are not even in the room themeselves, THAT is irresponsible, if you have a permit to carry you keep it in a safe or on your person until you are close enough to put it down on an area where no one can grab it before you can.

Unfortunantly, VERY few gun owners are responsible gun owners.

I would NEVER leave a gun lying around without my personal supervision, not ANYWHERE, to do so is to be fucked up in the head.

I disagree with point 1. What we call terrorists are very successful (gorrilla warfare) at defeating much stronger forces though careful tactics. It is possible to do a lot with just bolt action or semi auto rifles. A few hundred pounds of fertilizer, some AR-15's and a group of dedicated men could hold off a much larger force for a long time.

I also find almost everyone I know who owns firearms to be very responsible. Everyone I know has a safe, everyone I know uses that safe. Everyone I know has gone though training, and has the proper license to carry. Everyone I know would never hand you a loaded gun, would never pick up a gun without checking if it was loaded, and would never leave a gun sitting around.

I wear my weapon at all times. I only take it off for work (I work at a college and it freaks out students), and at home where I place it in a drawer by my bed. If I am leaving and not taking it with me, then it goes in my safe. If children are coming over, it goes in my safe. All of my ammo is in a second safe (except the loaded mag in my pistol) and I have no loaded weapons beyond my carry in the house.

 

[KeithTalent]

Most of us don't, but I'm Canadian so WTF do I know.

KT

 

[GasX]

In the context of the times in which the Constitution was written. Enabling a citizenry to arm and protect itself was <ahem> revolutionary. Its intent was to provide strong disincentive for either an invading army or a totalitarian regime to disarm the populace and put a strangelhold on the people.

While we like to think we are more civilized and that such things would never happen, it really is a slippery slope to chip away at these rights. It may not be an issue today, but if we were to disarm, REALLY disarm, the populous, what would stop a military coup from happening?

One has to serious consider this point of view when discussing knee jerk gun ban laws due to gun crimes.

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: UberNeuman
Why do we need cars? They kill more people than bicycles!

Excellent point. BTW, I ride a MP-40 to work every day!

 

[daniel1113]

The answer is in the question. We are citizens, not subjects (or, at least, we should be).

Citizens have the right to own guns without interference from the government. Citizens have the right to to put whatever they want into their bodies without government interference. Citizens have the right to to do whatever they want with other consenting citizens without government interference.

Subjects do not.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: sourceninja
I need and wear a gun for numerous reasons.
1) For personal protection - The police are not under any obligation to protect me. I live near areas where there have been riots.
2) For protection of my family - See 1.
3) For protection of my property - See 1. In fact, in this economy this will be more important.
4) For protection from my government. Yes this sounds crazy, but this was the main reason I believe the founder fathers made the 2nd amendment.
5) As a hobby. I love target shooting and pistol shooting. I love shooting automatic weapons, I love long range target shooting. I find it fun and stress revealing. No different then archery or basketball. Yes, I need a assault weapon for this.
6) Hunting. I do not hunt, but having a good rifle will allow me to feed my family should I ever need to. I learned to hunt as a child. If I was to lose my job today, I could still go out into the woods near my home and take home a deer or rabbit.
7) To defend my country against invaders. If we were ever attacked and the US military was unable to respond, those of us who are armed would probably be in high demand. Yes, the idea of a 'red dawn' type situation is silly as hell. But still, it is a valid reason to own a weapon. I believe Switzerland requires all men to join the military and keep weapons in their homes.
8)Investment. Recently with the rising costs of weapons and ammo (thanks to all the crazies claiming obama is going to ban all guns on the planet), the prices of firearms and ammo have skyrocketed. I bought a few thousand rounds of ammo while it was cheap. I could sell it right now for about twice what I paid. I could sell my AR right now for about 500.00 more then I paid.
9) Family history. My family has been passing down a pistol for a long time. Guns and knives can bring a sense of history to a family. It can help you get in touch with your ancestors and really give a sense of responsibility and respect to the person you hand it down to. I hope that if I ever have children I can give them my weapons, and I know that when my father passes the pistol handed to him from his father from his father from his father will be given to me.

How would I fix gun control? More rules about gun shows. More training requirements for carry permits. Mandatory age appropriate gun training in schools (how to identify a gun, how to check if a gun is loaded, what to do if you find a gun, how to safely handle a gun and shoot it, etc).

1. Move out of the war zone, if i felt the need to have a gun to protect myself i'd fucking move out of that hellhole.

2. See 1

3. See 1

4. See my other post, at the time it was enough to overturn any US army, at this point, you can do absolutely nothing with handguns and rifles, you'd need THESE days state of the art weapons, if the army was with you, well then you wouldn't need ANY weapons, either way, your peashooters aren't going to make a difference on Jets, choppers and tanks.

5. Completely agree on all counts and i'd include hunting as i'm an avid hunter but that doesn't mean you can't keep your guns safe in a locker, preferably remove the active parts and store them in another locker, or safe as you boys over the pond call them.

6. answered above.

7. you'd be issued a weapon if that was the case.

8. you'd do better in investing in ancient weaponary then.

9. Same here, i don't carry my grandfathers sidearm, it's in a safe.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: UberNeuman
Why do we need cars? They kill more people than bicycles!

Excellent point. BTW, I ride a MP-40 to work every day!

I might consider it if they make a heated bike that can handle 2 foot deep snow.

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: daniel1113
The answer is in the question. We are citizens, not subjects (or, at least, we should be).

Citizens have the right to own guns without interference from the government. Citizens have the right to to put whatever they want into their bodies without government interference. Citizens have the right to to do whatever they want with other consenting citizens without government interference.

Subjects do not.

Then why does the US have such stringent possession laws?

KT

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: daniel1113
The answer is in the question. We are citizens, not subjects (or, at least, we should be).

Citizens have the right to own guns without interference from the government. Citizens have the right to to put whatever they want into their bodies without government interference. Citizens have the right to to do whatever they want with other consenting citizens without government interference.

Subjects do not.

Then why does the US have such stringent possession laws?

KT

Reading comprehension. You suck at it.

 

[nerp]

Reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that many ATOT members are delusional paranoid whackjobs who watch too much TV and seen way too many movies. Where the fuck do you live that you need to worry about a home invasion? Your own stats you barf out about cars being more dangerous proves my point -- you're living in fear of a wholly unrealisitc view of the world. Home invasions rarely happen and most burglars don't carry weapons (being busted for B&E is easier to deal with than armed robbery) and are scared off and go running as soon as they hear a cough or th lights go on. Second, burglars tend to hit houses when you're on vacation or away. Thus, your trusty gun is more likely to be stolen during a break-in than actually used.

Where the hell do you all live? Kabul? Life must suck living in such a state of fear that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family with a weapon in the house.

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: daniel1113
The answer is in the question. We are citizens, not subjects (or, at least, we should be).

Citizens have the right to own guns without interference from the government. Citizens have the right to to put whatever they want into their bodies without government interference. Citizens have the right to to do whatever they want with other consenting citizens without government interference.

Subjects do not.

Then why does the US have such stringent possession laws?

KT

Reading comprehension. You suck at it.

Your post makes little sense, but thanks for being a jackass. :thumbsup:

KT

 

[IceBergSLiM]

successful troll is successful

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: sourceninja

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Three points.

1. You would need the state of the art weapons, which at the time it was written was handguns and bolt action rifles and today they are everything from jets to haubitses to tanks to RPG's and so on and so forth, to be able to have the slightest chance against an army not on your side.
2. If the army is on your side, you don't need any weapon.
3. An illegal gun is nothing but a firearm you buy legally and file off the serial number off, that is what pretty much ALL illegal guns in the US are.

Remember the Finland school shooting? IF the dad had followed the law and kept his gun in his safe as he SHOULD HAVE instead of in the bedroom drawer, that would never have happened.

I don't mind people owning guns, i own quite a few myself but i DO mind that people keep them in their cabinets and bedroom drawers when they are not even in the room themeselves, THAT is irresponsible, if you have a permit to carry you keep it in a safe or on your person until you are close enough to put it down on an area where no one can grab it before you can.

Unfortunantly, VERY few gun owners are responsible gun owners.

I would NEVER leave a gun lying around without my personal supervision, not ANYWHERE, to do so is to be fucked up in the head.

I disagree with point 1. What we call terrorists are very successful (gorrilla warfare) at defeating much stronger forces though careful tactics. It is possible to do a lot with just bolt action or semi auto rifles. A few hundred pounds of fertilizer, some AR-15's and a group of dedicated men could hold off a much larger force for a long time.

Gorrilla warfare? They may be hairy but they are not gorillas you know.

I find it scary that a man who can't spell guerilla can own and carry a weapon.

I'd respond to the rest but i already did, you are just arguing around it, not against it.

A group of dedicated men would last 15 minutes just because of delayed impact.

Or 130 last we targeted a group compound in Pakistan.

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: JDMnAR1

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: CKent
We don't need them, but we need a broad definitiion of freedom, which allows us to own them, smoke pot, marry a person of the same gender, or basically whatever else we want so long as it doesn't affect others. Unfortunately people on both sides of the political spectrum want to turn us into a western Afghanistan by systematically destroying freedom.

Yeah, it's funny how the conservatives want to protect gun rights but couldn't care less about the rights of homosexuals.

Which constitutional amendment addreses marriage again, I can't seem to remember?

EDIT: And if a homosexual wants to own a gun, more power to him or her.

You act as if the constitution has never been amended . . . nor can it ever be amended again.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: sourceninja

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: UberNeuman
Why do we need cars? They kill more people than bicycles!

Excellent point. BTW, I ride a MP-40 to work every day!

I might consider it if they make a heated bike that can handle 2 foot deep snow.

An MP-40 is a sub machine gun.

 

[xcript]

Guns are for wussies.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: nerp
Reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that many ATOT members are delusional paranoid whackjobs who watch too much TV and seen way too many movies. Where the fuck do you live that you need to worry about a home invasion? Your own stats you barf out about cars being more dangerous proves my point -- you're living in fear of a wholly unrealisitc view of the world. Home invasions rarely happen and most burglars don't carry weapons (being busted for B&E is easier to deal with than armed robbery) and are scared off and go running as soon as they hear a cough or th lights go on. Second, burglars tend to hit houses when you're on vacation or away. Thus, your trusty gun is more likely to be stolen during a break-in than actually used.

Where the hell do you all live? Kabul? Life must suck living in such a state of fear that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family with a weapon in the house.

Where to begin... where to begin.

Unlikely is not the same as "doesn't happen". You're also unlikely to die in a house fire, but I have a feeling that you probably have both a fire extinguisher and smoke detector in your home. Paranoid much? Now, if you're ok with your odds, more power to you. But in the unlikely event that something terrible were to happen, some of us like to be prepared. Reasonable preparation is not paranoia.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: nerp

Originally posted by: JDMnAR1

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: CKent
We don't need them, but we need a broad definitiion of freedom, which allows us to own them, smoke pot, marry a person of the same gender, or basically whatever else we want so long as it doesn't affect others. Unfortunately people on both sides of the political spectrum want to turn us into a western Afghanistan by systematically destroying freedom.

Yeah, it's funny how the conservatives want to protect gun rights but couldn't care less about the rights of homosexuals.

Which constitutional amendment addreses marriage again, I can't seem to remember?

EDIT: And if a homosexual wants to own a gun, more power to him or her.

You act as if the constitution has never been amended . . . nor can it ever be amended again.

You want to amend the constitution to specifically disallow homosexual marriage?

Is that what the constitution has become? A playground for opposing parties to get their will through? If so you can just scrap it like GW wanted to do since it would just be "a goddamn piece of paper".

 

[JDMnAR1]

Originally posted by: nerp
Reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that many ATOT members are delusional paranoid whackjobs who watch too much TV and seen way too many movies. Where the fuck do you live that you need to worry about a home invasion? Your own stats you barf out about cars being more dangerous proves my point -- you're living in fear of a wholly unrealisitc view of the world. Home invasions rarely happen and most burglars don't carry weapons (being busted for B&E is easier to deal with than armed robbery) and are scared off and go running as soon as they hear a cough or th lights go on. Second, burglars tend to hit houses when you're on vacation or away. Thus, your trusty gun is more likely to be stolen during a break-in than actually used.

Where the hell do you all live? Kabul? Life must suck living in such a state of fear that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family with a weapon in the house.

Yeah home invasions involving shootings absolutely never happen. :disgust:

Where the hell do you live? Neverland? Life must suck living in such a state of denial that you'd be willing to risk the lives of your family without a weapon in the house.