Then dont. Buy a Mac. Darwin is Open Source software, and the only part of an Apple machine that is really closed is the equivilent of the x86 chipset.
Then dont. Buy a Mac. Darwin is Open Source software, and the only part of an Apple machine that is really closed is the equivilent of the x86 chipset.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: Flatline
BBWF, just one interjection...I wouldn't want to run a LARGE website on a Mac or a Windows machine; give me apache on linux any day.
Of course, if I were forced to choose between Mac & Windows for running a large website, I would pick the Mac (primarily because it IS a 'nix-based platform).
I would hesitate to call Windows machines a joke as far as being workstations is concerned...at my last company, all of our software developers used Win2K machines (although we in the IT department truly did try to get them to run 'nix); we were pleasantly surprised by their stability and performance. While I still think that a properly configured 'nix machine would have been better, the Windows workstations performed admirably (and were less expensive than their Mac counterparts...we did look at that).
Many of the things that you listed as great Mac features (apache, ssl, c compiler, etc.) will be included on pretty much any 'nix platform, and I agree that their inclusion in the OS is one of the things that make 'nix-based OSes so useful. However, I personally can't get around spending so many $$$ on proprietary hardware and software in order to have a brand-name 'nix machine at my desk; this is one of the things that kept me away from slowaris for so long.
Long story short, I rarely (if ever) use Windows anymore; I have become a 'nix fan. I like the fact that OSX is 'nix-based, but the price tag is too high for me (although I must say that the notebooks are intriguing)
Well, I guess I should point out that when you buy a Mac server, everything is pre-installed, it comes with dual gigabit ethernet ports (among other things) and the Xserve (1U) comes with a licence for unlimited clients, and 24/7 phone support. Now the phone support, etc. are something you may or may not need, but of course that's part of where the price differences come in.
It seems when I look around though that the Unix geeks seem to be buying nix desktops and Mac laptops though. You seem like somebody who would fit the bill.
You can get similar 'nix setups (and the support) from many companies. The Xserve is, from what I understand, a pretty decent product, so understand that I am not trying to say anything bad about it.
Just letting you know that Apple is, of course, not the only company offering such a thing.
Anyone here actually used an Xserve? I'd like to hear first-hand thoughts on it, but no one I know has done anyting with them. I'm always up for trying new things
Just letting you know that Apple is, of course, not the only company offering such a thing.
Anyone here actually used an Xserve? I'd like to hear first-hand thoughts on it, but no one I know has done anyting with them. I'm always up for trying new things
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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I know very little about servers, so I can't comment on hands on experience. However, I will say I mentioned the support business simply because it seems that a few people in various threads always seem to compare a commercial server product (from any company) vs. a single desktop machine with good specs and complain that commercial servers cost too much. That's all I was talking about. Anyways, my local store runs their database and website off an Xserve. They said they just configured it and it simply runs. But I'm sure they could have done the same with any number of machines.Originally posted by: Flatline
You can get similar 'nix setups (and the support) from many companies. The Xserve is, from what I understand, a pretty decent product, so understand that I am not trying to say anything bad about it.
Just letting you know that Apple is, of course, not the only company offering such a thing.
Anyone here actually used an Xserve? I'd like to hear first-hand thoughts on it, but no one I know has done anyting with them. I'm always up for trying new things
Here are some reviews:
PC Magazine
Macworld
OS News
Federal Computer Week
Free? You must mean I dont have to pay for it. Ill look for a download link now, but if you could provide one Id be much obliged.
I'd take a Compaq ProLiant DL360 G3 over an Xserve any day.
At least until the Xserve get some more time to prove itself, if Apple actually gets serious with their server effort, then the XServe would be much more viable.
At least until the Xserve get some more time to prove itself, if Apple actually gets serious with their server effort, then the XServe would be much more viable.
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Free? You must mean I dont have to pay for it. Ill look for a download link now, but if you could provide one Id be much obliged.
It is available for download. use google.
Originally posted by: Lucky
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Free? You must mean I dont have to pay for it. Ill look for a download link now, but if you could provide one Id be much obliged.
It is available for download. use google.
I found it, thanks though. It appears I am required to purchase a version of Windows to use it... So all in all the price of iMovie compared to the price of this product is very similar, the purchase of an OS ($129 for Mac OS X, $199 or whatever for Windows XP).
James Taylor, R.E.M. and Frank Zappa recently had their music mastered on AMD powered PCs running Nuendo, plus a few other "names" in the music industry had DVD-A's done on PC's.
If PC's are good enough for REM, they're good enough for everyone.
http://www.crmav.com/recording/75/amd_teams_with_steinberg_to_deliver_digital_audio_workstatio.shtml
Matrox has ok'd AMD for realtime video / DVD authoring.
?Our scalable TurboDV software-based export engine takes full advantage of the AMD Athlon processor-based platforms to deliver faster DV rendering speed than ever before.?- Patrick Beaulieu, Matrox RT2500 senior product specialist.
http://www.crmav.com/video/38/amd_processor_based_platforms_certified_for_matrox_realtime.shtml
5 years ago Macs were the defacto standard in these areas, thanks in large part to hardware support.
I build PC's in the North Hollywood area, there are a ton of small audio / video shops around here that do everything from cheasy Porns and recording garage bands, to mastering shows for MTV / FOX Sports. No, not "bigtime", but more a sub pro-sumer industry full of people who make livings at it.
I tell long time Mac users doing audio / video to get with the times, Macs were the the best choice once upon a time but times have changed.
More than a few of these folks are the zealots, macCult freaks who identify themselves by the kernel they use, getting them to just touch a PC was often like pulling teeth. The last PC they used was some Win95 POS that had dll / driver issues and they don't forget that horror. I haven't created total "ditch Apple converts" per se, but I have sold quite a few PC's to people who would have bought a Mac... and now either use both or are transisitioning to PC. I have found quite a few of these shops using G3's just because that's what gets their work done, once I let them test drive a Win2K AMD XP / MP most of them are almost shocked at the performance gains and stability... and really shocked at the price.
But once I boil it down to them in business terms; more computers runnng faster means more work = more money... the choice to stay Mac becomes less of a no brainer. One typical ponytail scruffy hat bakwards Apple head audio "dude" said he'd sooner quit than use a PC, after 4 months he finally admitted it wasn't so bad afterall.
I'm not trying to suggest that PC's are taking over or that Macs "suck", just my observations as a small builder in the heart of audio / video digital land. The idea Macs are better at audio / video is no longer the fact it once was, today it's a matter of opinion.
I'd never buy one personally, I'd never buy a Dell or Gateway either... I build my own. Now that those PPC motherboard / CPU's are being sold and you can run OSX through yellow Dog, or something like that, I just might build one and check out OSX.
If all Joe User wants is e-mail, word processing, CD burning and web surfing, a $300 Walmart Lindows thing with an Athlon XP will suit them just fine. My neighbor has one and I was suprised how peppy it ran and how well it worked.
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Lucky
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Free? You must mean I dont have to pay for it. Ill look for a download link now, but if you could provide one Id be much obliged.
It is available for download. use google.
I found it, thanks though. It appears I am required to purchase a version of Windows to use it... So all in all the price of iMovie compared to the price of this product is very similar, the purchase of an OS ($129 for Mac OS X, $199 or whatever for Windows XP).
It's in beta right now, it hasn't gone gold. But of course you would be required to have windows...you expect MS to release it on linux? Cmon.
Originally posted by: Lucky
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Lucky
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Free? You must mean I dont have to pay for it. Ill look for a download link now, but if you could provide one Id be much obliged.
It is available for download. use google.
I found it, thanks though. It appears I am required to purchase a version of Windows to use it... So all in all the price of iMovie compared to the price of this product is very similar, the purchase of an OS ($129 for Mac OS X, $199 or whatever for Windows XP).
It's in beta right now, it hasn't gone gold. But of course you would be required to have windows...you expect MS to release it on linux? Cmon.
Apple has open sourced their quicktime streaming server or whatever...
I just wanted to point out that iMovie is as free as Microsoft's solution. Thats all.
I work on both. I work with a PC a good bit more though.
For Adobe apps (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign), I prefer to work on the Mac. I have a strong feeling that my preference is based on the fact that I learned those apps on a Mac and just feel more comfortable.
As for stability, I can crash OS 9.xx in seconds if I try and hours if I am working. OS X is a great OS for performance and stability and I HIGHLY recommend it. I have yet to crash it. I have an uptime of 60+ days and counting on OS X since I upgraded.
I can crash a PC pretty easily if I want, but have far fewer crashes when just working. Windows 2000 has helped out remarkably in that department. It is my favorite "everyday" OS and is what I do the majority of my work and play on.
The incarnations of the Mac OS prior to OS X are not very "network friendly". They can be networked, but it is (IMHO) an kludgy and painful experience unless everything in your network is a Mac and runs on Apple Talk. Proprietary communication protocols are not the best idea in my view.
Mac hardware is prohibitively expensive and in my experience is not any faster than a PC. I will say that GHz (or MHz) for GHz Macs are faster in some apps, especially video, sound, or image manipulation apps.
The nearly 2GHZ difference that has been acheived between the platforms nullifies any advantage the Macs had even in the apps that it previously excelled in.
I believe that based on performance alone PCs are the better choice for most people at every price point.
For Adobe apps (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign), I prefer to work on the Mac. I have a strong feeling that my preference is based on the fact that I learned those apps on a Mac and just feel more comfortable.
As for stability, I can crash OS 9.xx in seconds if I try and hours if I am working. OS X is a great OS for performance and stability and I HIGHLY recommend it. I have yet to crash it. I have an uptime of 60+ days and counting on OS X since I upgraded.
I can crash a PC pretty easily if I want, but have far fewer crashes when just working. Windows 2000 has helped out remarkably in that department. It is my favorite "everyday" OS and is what I do the majority of my work and play on.
The incarnations of the Mac OS prior to OS X are not very "network friendly". They can be networked, but it is (IMHO) an kludgy and painful experience unless everything in your network is a Mac and runs on Apple Talk. Proprietary communication protocols are not the best idea in my view.
Mac hardware is prohibitively expensive and in my experience is not any faster than a PC. I will say that GHz (or MHz) for GHz Macs are faster in some apps, especially video, sound, or image manipulation apps.
The nearly 2GHZ difference that has been acheived between the platforms nullifies any advantage the Macs had even in the apps that it previously excelled in.
I believe that based on performance alone PCs are the better choice for most people at every price point.
Just my quick 2 cents and opinion as an avid non-Mac user.
I think OS X is great, looks good, works well. Too bad it doesn't play on PC hardware.
I also think, personally, that iMacs (all versions) are ugly. But then, i am a bit of a traditionalist. I like my computer to look like a box. Granted my boxes are black and silver, and both are lightly modded (one window kit, one bio-hazard laser-cut window kit, CCFL in both) but still boxes. I admit they are innovative, but still, as I said, I am a bit of a traditionalist. For me its the same way with cars. I like older models that are more "boxy" vs newer "bubbly" cars (ie Chevy Blazer, etc). Maybe I am old fashioned in my young age
I also enjoy upgrading and mild tinkering with my hardware, which you really can't do much of with Macs. Especially the iMac.
As I said, just my opinions.
\Dan
I think OS X is great, looks good, works well. Too bad it doesn't play on PC hardware.
I also think, personally, that iMacs (all versions) are ugly. But then, i am a bit of a traditionalist. I like my computer to look like a box. Granted my boxes are black and silver, and both are lightly modded (one window kit, one bio-hazard laser-cut window kit, CCFL in both) but still boxes. I admit they are innovative, but still, as I said, I am a bit of a traditionalist. For me its the same way with cars. I like older models that are more "boxy" vs newer "bubbly" cars (ie Chevy Blazer, etc). Maybe I am old fashioned in my young age
I also enjoy upgrading and mild tinkering with my hardware, which you really can't do much of with Macs. Especially the iMac.
As I said, just my opinions.
\Dan
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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Yeah, you can't tinker with an iMac much. But then again, it's aimed at the home user non-tinkerer crowd. You can tinker with a PowerMac though, if you wish.
I don't like big boxy American cars and I don't tinker with my cars. In fact, even if I wanted to I couldn't tinker with my car because of the numerous 288 V lines that run through my Prius. But I like how the car is packaged, and the fit and finish of the car, and the spaciousness. But my car can't haul a boat, and would get its @ss kicked in a drag race. Fortunately, I don't own a boat, and I definitely don't street race. I drive my car around the city usually, and this gas-electric hybrid car has amongst the best gas mileage in any car in its class for city driving.
(And no, you never plug this car in, in case you're wondering.)Originally posted by: Eug
Yeah, you can't tinker with an iMac much. But then again, it's aimed at the home user non-tinkerer crowd. You can tinker with a PowerMac though, if you wish.
I don't like big boxy American cars and I don't tinker with my cars. In fact, even if I wanted to I couldn't tinker with my car because of the numerous 288 V lines that run through my Prius. But I like how the car is packaged, and the fit and finish of the car, and the spaciousness. But my car can't haul a boat, and would get its @ss kicked in a drag race. Fortunately, I don't own a boat, and I definitely don't street race. I drive my car around the city usually, and this gas-electric hybrid car has amongst the best gas mileage in any car in its class for city driving.
i see those hybrid cars the same way i see macs: i'd buy one if i had the cash
cool cars.
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
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I wasn't comparing them at all. Apache is better. That's why the majority of large websites are hosted on Apache running linux or Unix. Not too many running OS X yet. But maybe there will be.
I was making two points.
1. If you install RH or any other flavor of linux on an x86, it also comes with Apache. And it's free.
2. Windows platforms also come with a web server. And although IIS is not as popular as Apache, it certainly does the job and is extremely easy to use and configure. There are many large corporations running websites on IIS / Win 2K.
And you must not know much about english if you couldn't understand my statements.
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
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I think you are all arguing about different things.
The original question was why people buy Apple computers.
A valid response would be "because OS X is great and it comes on Mac's"
NOT "because Windows sucks"
x86 does not mean Windows.
I have not used OS X. I hear very good things about it. But I thought this was more of a hardware debate and I think the x86 platform wins there. But to each his own.
By the way,
AMD rules
Intel sucks
NVidia rules
ATI sucks
Just kidding, don't you dare start on that one. Maybe I'll start a AMD vs Intel thread. I'm sure Anand has extra diskspace to burn. Muhahaha.
The original question was why people buy Apple computers.
A valid response would be "because OS X is great and it comes on Mac's"
NOT "because Windows sucks"
x86 does not mean Windows.
I have not used OS X. I hear very good things about it. But I thought this was more of a hardware debate and I think the x86 platform wins there. But to each his own.
By the way,
AMD rules
Intel sucks
NVidia rules
ATI sucks
Just kidding, don't you dare start on that one. Maybe I'll start a AMD vs Intel thread. I'm sure Anand has extra diskspace to burn. Muhahaha.
If only we had listened.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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Actually one feature I forgot to mention is the fact that I can boot off an external Firewire drive. ie. I can make an external CD or DVD or DVD-RAM or hard drive as the boot disk as I wish. My guess is that even a Firewire CompactFlash reader would work. I simply hold down the OPTION key when booting, and the Mac will automatically search for all Firewire connected drives. Not being able to do this on my Windows PC is a severe pain in the @ss, esp. since DOS boot discs won't support reading of NTFS volumes. I think the OPTION boot command also searches for USB drives, but so far I haven't tried that since I don't have any USB drives that would hold enough info.
I generally prefer the Mac OS. In fact, I just added my newest Apple......I bought a new TiBook G4. 1GHz G4, 1GB Ram, 60GB HD, Airport card, SuperDrive, whole 9 yards....can't wait to get my hands on it...
Typing this right now on a 867MHz G4 with 640MB Ram.....
Have a 533MHz G4 tower next to me running OS X.1.4 Server....
Have an iBook that just lost its job to a Ti
I have a XP1800+ system that hasn't been started in months now....
Just a matter of what your doing and what you like...The Apple does all my work. I'm a Communications/CS/Art student and the Apple handles them all in the way I like.
Just a matter of finding the best way to do what you need to do....for me, its an Apple...for other people its a PC...they both have merits, good points, and bad points...you take the good you take the bad and that's just the way it is...
Mike D
Typing this right now on a 867MHz G4 with 640MB Ram.....
Have a 533MHz G4 tower next to me running OS X.1.4 Server....
Have an iBook that just lost its job to a Ti
I have a XP1800+ system that hasn't been started in months now....
Just a matter of what your doing and what you like...The Apple does all my work. I'm a Communications/CS/Art student and the Apple handles them all in the way I like.
Just a matter of finding the best way to do what you need to do....for me, its an Apple...for other people its a PC...they both have merits, good points, and bad points...you take the good you take the bad and that's just the way it is...
Mike D
of course it doesnt, but the vast majority of people here are windows people. the few x86 non-windows people are the ones defending macs in this thread, and realize that they are not being referred to as windows users.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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