apoppin
Lifer
Just say it . . . die-hard religious folks tend to be HYPOCRITES . . . and I blame this on the 'easy' doctrine of abusing "forgiveness". ie. not taking personal responsibility and actually CHANGING the bad behavior (but blaming it on "sin").
you need to be forgiven by the humans you offend . . . not by someone who can't possibly be offended (by what we do to our neighbors).
*edit* lol nm that last thing
why do we do wrong... because humans will always be humans. Oh and whos to say whats wrong or right.
as for turning away from God... what GOD?
why do we do wrong... because humans will always be humans. Oh and whos to say whats wrong or right.
as for turning away from God... what GOD?
I think that a lot of bad behavior stems from bad parenting - too many latchkey kids and too little parental supervision.
We turn away from God because of pride and selfishness - we want to be at the center of the universe when it is not our rightful place.
We turn away from God because of pride and selfishness - we want to be at the center of the universe when it is not our rightful place.
Very well said. The reason people do good or bad things lie within each individual and his/her circumstances. Sure, his/her belief system and upbringing plays a portion in decision making and judgement. There is NOT a single, simple answer that encompass the behavior of the entire human population. Psychology, the study of social science, even warns about jumping to conclusion about causality vs. correlation.
Clearly you never even understood the slightest what atheist means. How can you bring up "God" with an atheist without some debate about theism?
Here's some question for you. Just a good indication that we are not on the same page. Is your "God" all knowing and all powerful? If so, and he/she/it desires a relationship with us, then his/her/it existence should never be in question. There would be NO requirement of teaching about "God" whatsoever.
I would challenge all Christians to NOT pass on their beliefs to their children or preach to non-Christians about "God". If you truely have faith and have the utmost confidence in your "God", I don't consider this an unreasonable request.
I just wish one day that the world would stop teaching their children about Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha and etc, and have their children start with a blank slate. Then maybe we'll truely know which "God" prevail.
Are you afraid that it's possible for atheists to actually have a change of heart? What is the real fear then? The fear of finding that there is a perfect loving divine entity or the fear of being on the wrong "side" of the argument?
God doesn't talk to me; I don't hear voices. It doesn't work that way. I don't even belong to a religious tradition. For all intents and purposes, I am "non-religious". But that doesn't mean I can't have faith. Various prophets, saints and sages throughout the ages have all taught us essentially the same thing: God exists. He created us. He loves us. He wants us to love another and love everything because everything ultimately came from God. When any of us do good, we become closer to God. When we do wrong, we create distance. Most people aren't even conscious of this arrangement but if they dove deep into their heart they may find the Truth.
You could start every child off on a "blank slate" but nothing would ultimately change. One of the wonders and mysteries of faith is that it cannot be shuttered by anything Man can construe. We could blow up the planet but that still would not change God's presence. He is immutable. People could write a million replies saying "god doesn't exist" but that's really a fruitless affair.
If we live our lives in pursuit of material interests, we can never be truly happy. The world can never, ever satiate our material wants because they are endless. Unfulfilled desire creates unhappiness. If we give up our free will and obey God's will, we can find Happiness because God, as Bono once said, "isn't short on cash".
I blame God. (Note: For the purposes of this post, I shall be using the classic tri-fold God; omniscient, omnipotent, omnicompassionate)
He made the system and set the rules, and dropped us in the middle of the whole mess knowing full well the exact course of our lives. By acknowledged fact we are imperfect beings, ultimately (if said doctrine is to be believed) to be punished for an eternity for a finite series of foreseen mistakes. God invented sin and built hell, not to mention all other attendant devices of the fall.
We're arguing the semantics and particularities of the system, when we should be asking why that system at all? For could not a perfect God, one who is all knowing, powerful, and loving, be able to come up with a system that is without the nasty defects this one is attendant with?
-- Jack
We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.
-- Gene Roddenberry
He made the system and set the rules, and dropped us in the middle of the whole mess knowing full well the exact course of our lives. By acknowledged fact we are imperfect beings, ultimately (if said doctrine is to be believed) to be punished for an eternity for a finite series of foreseen mistakes. God invented sin and built hell, not to mention all other attendant devices of the fall.
We're arguing the semantics and particularities of the system, when we should be asking why that system at all? For could not a perfect God, one who is all knowing, powerful, and loving, be able to come up with a system that is without the nasty defects this one is attendant with?
-- Jack
We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.
-- Gene Roddenberry
Christianity doesn't provide love and kindness, because of the core doctrine that all who are not Christian are damned. It provides feelings of superiority, exclusivity, hatred, and narrow mindedness. Christianity isn't about loving everyone. It's about making everyone Christian.
i'm a lot happier now that i'm free to explore my OWN spirituality instead of being indoctrinated by my old cult. oops, i mean church.
I like to think that I have the capacity to love my fellow man without pressure from some higher being.
Much more often than not, I believe that it's much more likely that (for the most part) when people do "wrong", it's because it's easier than doing "right". A lot of it has to do with being lazy: who wants to expend more energy than is absolutely necessary to accomplish a task? Also, doing wrong can appear quite appealing at times. If wrong-doing wasn't in a pretty package, why would anyone ever choose to do the "wrong" thing over what they know to be "right"?
Just a thought.
Cerb
Elite Member
- Aug 26, 2000
- 17,484
- 33
- 86
People obviously do wrong because they get more fullfilment from it than doing right. Also, they obviously had some bad genes or weren't raised to be better.
We turn away from God because of many things. Most noteably, many of us can't be convinced He exists, and upon reflection,realize that there never was a connection, and no faith. Why do you need God? Do well for yourself and don't worry about it.
We turn away from God because of many things. Most noteably, many of us can't be convinced He exists, and upon reflection,realize that there never was a connection, and no faith. Why do you need God? Do well for yourself and don't worry about it.
If you don't understand why people need to believe in God or a Higher Power, I offer you the well-loved "Footprints In The Sand".
Footprints In The Sand
One night I had a dream.
I was walking along the beach with the Lord, and across the skies flashed scenes of my life.
In each scene I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand. One was mine, and one was the Lord's.
When the last scene of my life appeared before me, I looked back at the footprints in the sand, and to my surprise I noticed that many times along the path of my life there was only one set of footprints, and I noticed that it was at the lowest and saddest times in my life.
I asked the Lord about it: "Lord you said that once I decided to follow you, you would walk with me all the way. But I notice that during the most troublesome times in my life there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why you left my side when I needed you most."
The Lord said: "My precious child, I never left you during your time of trial. Where you see only one set of footprints, I was carrying you."
Footprints In The Sand
One night I had a dream.
I was walking along the beach with the Lord, and across the skies flashed scenes of my life.
In each scene I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand. One was mine, and one was the Lord's.
When the last scene of my life appeared before me, I looked back at the footprints in the sand, and to my surprise I noticed that many times along the path of my life there was only one set of footprints, and I noticed that it was at the lowest and saddest times in my life.
I asked the Lord about it: "Lord you said that once I decided to follow you, you would walk with me all the way. But I notice that during the most troublesome times in my life there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why you left my side when I needed you most."
The Lord said: "My precious child, I never left you during your time of trial. Where you see only one set of footprints, I was carrying you."
I agree that many people need to believe in a god to carry on with their lives. Its tough to come to grips with the fact that we still don't have all the answers to existance yet. Instead of saying I dont know, just say god! Its also tough to come to terms to mortality. How many people want to believe that when they die, thats it, party's over, you're gone in every way? Its much easier to think you'll live on somehow, who doesn't want some form of immortality? No matter though I believe in science and not an all powerful being so you can keep your god and I'll live my life for me. That doesn't imply a bad life or an immoral one either.
Exactly my point Eli, Which is why I asked what I did about Mithrandirs post. Mith was the one who stated that when an Athiest does good, it is just god working inside of him and not his own ability to know right and wrong, and choose right. As an Athiest and a do gooder, I wanted him to explain what he meant.
how about a completely different paradigm??
one where the "god" doesn't want or require obedience?? where obedience was just a means to an end and not the end itself??
what if righteousness was not moral living but a condition, a state of mind, a perspective??
i believe all men to be born "sinners" not because of anything they've done but because they were born without the spirit of god.
only by being "born again" can one NOT be a sinner and moral living has nothing to do with it.
most christians who focus ONLY only moral living to me are like the rich young ruler in the gospel, he comes before jesus with his righteous moral life and expects to be praised for it, instead jesus says, all your efforts have been in vain, cast it all aside and follow me.
to me, athiests are more likely to accept god when he comes to them with that choice than most "christians"
our choice is to accept or reject the spirit of god once it's been offered to us. all other "choices" what i wear, what i eat, where i work, those don't define "free will". it could be argued that we don't really have choice but are just the sum of our biology, that all things are predetermined.
the only choice that matters is the choice to accept or reject the spirit of god once it's been offered to you and i believe it doesn't have to come in the specific form or christianity or any other religion. i just use the vocabulary of christianity because that's my background.
And likewise it is a double edged blade. For people can see god as someone who carried them through the rough times but they also use it as an excuse. Like a guy who was planning to quit his job because he said god would provide for him and his family. His wife ended up slapping some sense into him. Or the person who hates their life, but never goes out of the way to make any changes because they assume that god will eventually hand them something better. Or the person who doesn't feel they need to see a doctor because they think god will heal them. Or the person who never really pushes themselves and just keeps asking god why they lost their job or why they are fat.
If there is a god, theres a good chance he isn't carrying each one of us through our lives. The likelyhood of a giant cosmic babysitter is slim. Our HOPE in him may be carrying us through the bad times, but that is like getting better on sugar pills, it is a trick in our mind. That does not mean I think it is bad, but I do view it as a weakness.
The reason "Footprints in the Sand" is well-loved is because it is a big happy thought. It gives you a warm fuzzy feeling like you just watched a disney movie. It makes you think that whatever happens in your life it will be ok, because some omnipotent being will be there to carry you through it.
I don't like to think it is as simple as accepting some spirit despite what you did in life. It lends an air of "I can do whatever I want in life as long as I accept the spirit of god". But your stance is similar to my understanding of the new testament. That god forgives all sins.
But, I'd like to think to accept the spirit of god would be more than one simple instance. More like the sum of your life or the sum of your character. Acceptance through action instead of choice. I think that was something I learned during catholic school also though. I had some really cool teachers in catholic school and I think the only reason I am athiest is because of what I learned from them. I now hold the stance that, if there is a god, let it judge me and if there isn't a god, let me rot.
Also, I thought the story you mentioned was about material possessions. But if it was morality, then he still had a lesson to learn, because you cannot expect praise and be humble at the same time
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