Why do humans do wrong? (And why do we turn away from God?)

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PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: skace
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
how about a completely different paradigm??

one where the "god" doesn't want or require obedience?? where obedience was just a means to an end and not the end itself??

what if righteousness was not moral living but a condition, a state of mind, a perspective??

i believe all men to be born "sinners" not because of anything they've done but because they were born without the spirit of god.

only by being "born again" can one NOT be a sinner and moral living has nothing to do with it.

most christians who focus ONLY only moral living to me are like the rich young ruler in the gospel, he comes before jesus with his righteous moral life and expects to be praised for it, instead jesus says, all your efforts have been in vain, cast it all aside and follow me.

to me, athiests are more likely to accept god when he comes to them with that choice than most "christians"

our choice is to accept or reject the spirit of god once it's been offered to us. all other "choices" what i wear, what i eat, where i work, those don't define "free will". it could be argued that we don't really have choice but are just the sum of our biology, that all things are predetermined.

the only choice that matters is the choice to accept or reject the spirit of god once it's been offered to you and i believe it doesn't have to come in the specific form or christianity or any other religion. i just use the vocabulary of christianity because that's my background.
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I don't like to think it is as simple as accepting some spirit despite what you did in life. It lends an air of "I can do whatever I want in life as long as I accept the spirit of god". But your stance is similar to my understanding of the new testament. That god forgives all sins.

But, I'd like to think to accept the spirit of god would be more than one simple instance. More like the sum of your life or the sum of your character. Acceptance through action instead of choice. I think that was something I learned during catholic school also though. I had some really cool teachers in catholic school and I think the only reason I am athiest is because of what I learned from them. I now hold the stance that, if there is a god, let it judge me and if there isn't a god, let me rot.

Also, I thought the story you mentioned was about material possessions. But if it was morality, then he still had a lesson to learn, because you cannot expect praise and be humble at the same time :).
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i'm not talking about "as simple as accepting some spirit despite what you did in life", tho that is pretty much what happened to the Thief on the cross.

i'm talking about a life changing instance or moment.

look at peter, for 3.5 yrs he walked with jesus, slept with jesus and yet he still saw jesus as only a political messiah, because he wasn't born again. because the spirit of god had not awakened in him that which enabled him to see and understand god. (read John chapter 3).

this kind of spiritual awakening changes everything about us.

when peter was in the courtyard denying jesus, the 1st time was self preservation, 2nd time was realization, 3rd time was conviction and it was that conviction that changed who he was, at that point peter saw jesus as GOD and not as man.
 
S

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
So would you say someone could recieve the spirit of god and then become athiest as I have?
 
P

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: skace
So would you say someone could recieve the spirit of god and then become athiest as I have?
Click to expand...

athiest, christian, buddhist, muslim

these are all labels that don't really have any meaning to me.

many "athiests" have been turned off to christianity and "god" because of what "christians" have taught them. that does not mean that there isn't a god.

many "athiests" may have an experience with god but don't have the words to express it. many "athiests" don't have this encounter with god and plain don't believe in god.

are you an athiest? by which definition?

but what is your real question? do you want me to say there is a final judgement? yes there is. but that implies to many people hell etc etc. i don't hold the same set of beliefs regarding hell and such that many others do.

my paradigm differs from most christians in this respect. i don't believe that god desires law. i believe it is satan / devil that desires law.

god doesn't require obedience, satan does.

satan's paradigm of a perfect universe, everyone and everything obeys one central being.

god's paradigm of a perfect universe, all free will agents are responsible to themselves only.

but like children before god can release us to this type of universe he has to test us and train us. only those that are capable of understanding and accepting personal responsiblity etc etc can live in his perfect universe.
 
M

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
1
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: skace
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
how about a completely different paradigm??

one where the "god" doesn't want or require obedience?? where obedience was just a means to an end and not the end itself??

what if righteousness was not moral living but a condition, a state of mind, a perspective??

i believe all men to be born "sinners" not because of anything they've done but because they were born without the spirit of god.

only by being "born again" can one NOT be a sinner and moral living has nothing to do with it.

most christians who focus ONLY only moral living to me are like the rich young ruler in the gospel, he comes before jesus with his righteous moral life and expects to be praised for it, instead jesus says, all your efforts have been in vain, cast it all aside and follow me.

to me, athiests are more likely to accept god when he comes to them with that choice than most "christians"

our choice is to accept or reject the spirit of god once it's been offered to us. all other "choices" what i wear, what i eat, where i work, those don't define "free will". it could be argued that we don't really have choice but are just the sum of our biology, that all things are predetermined.

the only choice that matters is the choice to accept or reject the spirit of god once it's been offered to you and i believe it doesn't have to come in the specific form or christianity or any other religion. i just use the vocabulary of christianity because that's my background.
Click to expand...

I don't like to think it is as simple as accepting some spirit despite what you did in life. It lends an air of "I can do whatever I want in life as long as I accept the spirit of god". But your stance is similar to my understanding of the new testament. That god forgives all sins.

But, I'd like to think to accept the spirit of god would be more than one simple instance. More like the sum of your life or the sum of your character. Acceptance through action instead of choice. I think that was something I learned during catholic school also though. I had some really cool teachers in catholic school and I think the only reason I am athiest is because of what I learned from them. I now hold the stance that, if there is a god, let it judge me and if there isn't a god, let me rot.

Also, I thought the story you mentioned was about material possessions. But if it was morality, then he still had a lesson to learn, because you cannot expect praise and be humble at the same time :).
Click to expand...

i'm not talking about "as simple as accepting some spirit despite what you did in life", tho that is pretty much what happened to the Thief on the cross.

i'm talking about a life changing instance or moment.

look at peter, for 3.5 yrs he walked with jesus, slept with jesus and yet he still saw jesus as only a political messiah, because he wasn't born again. because the spirit of god had not awakened in him that which enabled him to see and understand god. (read John chapter 3).

this kind of spiritual awakening changes everything about us.

when peter was in the courtyard denying jesus, the 1st time was self preservation, 2nd time was realization, 3rd time was conviction and it was that conviction that changed who he was, at that point peter saw jesus as GOD and not as man.
Click to expand...
This is the kind of thing I have experienced, to some extent.

I feel that because I was an atheist, because at one time I didn't want anything to do with God or faith or religion or any of that "nonsense", that when the Spirit became clear to me (the process of which I would have trouble verbalizing) it was very life changing. I see the world completely different now, as if I am a different person. I've developed a disdain for capitalism, competition, profit, and Randian ego-mania and a desire for collaboration, community, harmony, compassion. I can't say that I even like America anymore. I just find it so hypocritical when flag-waving people shout "God Bless America" when God probably frowns on our nation. That's rather hard to take.

---

As for the message in Footprints, it does not mean you don't have to fix your problems because God will fix them for you. Rather, God is always with you, through thick and thin, although you may not realize it. A person who follows God's will wouldn't ever be led astray.

The point of contention probably is "what IS God's will?" Terrorists, for example, may claim that they are acting in God's will. But they cannot possibly be because God is the very definition of Good and terrorism is never, ever Good. Am I saying that they have a different "God"? No, there's only one God and these human assassins simply haven't found Him. This is not pretentious snobbery. God is only Good. If whatever you are hearing isn't Good, that's not from God.

And then you can go on to "what IS Good?" I guess this is why religious topics scroll on endlessly. Everybody is on a different page so it takes a long time to get everybody to come together. But it's possible even if it seems otherwise.
 
S

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Oh sh!t not again! Someone please start a seperate religion forum for these threads.
 
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