Why did China get the Olympics, again?

[ManSnake]

Originally posted by: prontospyder

1. The Taiwan question is to be determined by the Chinese on both sides of the Straits.

Then why was the Chinese government so angry when the Taiwanese president hinted at letting the people of Taiwan decide their fate in an election?

2. All Chinese recognize ONE CHINA, and Taiwan as part of that CHINA.

It would be much easier to accept if the Chinese government is democratically elected. Why would any logical Taiwanese citizen wanna give up their hard earned freedoms?

3. Taiwanese are not Chinese if they do not support ONE CHINA, and therefore has no say at all.

How wonderful....only people who agrees with the communists are allowed to decide Taiwan's fate. And for the people who don't agree...should they be executed in a public stadium?

I have no problems with Taiwan reuniting with China.....if there's a regime change. But even if there's a regime change, it's up to the people of Taiwan to decide their fate in an election.....WITHOUT Chinese missiles pointing and military exercises close to home.

Next time please learn how to properly refute an argument! In my argument I have already proved that people that consider themselves Taiwanese are not Chinese, therefore they have no say in the future of China which Taiwan is a part of.

 

[prontospyder]

kuwait was part of iraq?

Yep...Kuwait was part of Iraq when Iraq was called Mesopotamia.

 

[prontospyder]

have you seen footage of their wwf congress in action?

haven't read about or seen any fighting in their Congress these past few years. Last time I recalled seeing a fight was in 1996.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: prontospyder

kuwait was part of iraq?

Yep...Kuwait was part of Iraq when Iraq was called Mesopotamia.

so basically, kuwait was never part of iraq.

 

[McPhreak]

Originally posted by: jooksing
Yes the Chinese government sucks, there's no denying that, but life in China is not as bad as a lot of you make it out to be. There's no reason to demonize a peoples or their way of life if you have never had first hand experience of the situation over there.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: prontospyder

have you seen footage of their wwf congress in action?

haven't read about or seen any fighting in their Congress these past few years. Last time I recalled seeing a fight was in 1996.

you're right, there haven't been any *physical* fights for a while.

 

[prontospyder]

Next time please learn how to properly refute an argument! In my argument I have already proved that people that consider themselves Taiwanese are not Chinese, therefore they have no say in the future of China which Taiwan is a part of.

Well, whatever your logic is, I still believe every citizen on the island has a right to decide.....kinda how Puerto Rico has a right to choose whether they want to be part of the US or not.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: prontospyder

Next time please learn how to properly refute an argument! In my argument I have already proved that people that consider themselves Taiwanese are not Chinese, therefore they have no say in the future of China which Taiwan is a part of.

Well, whatever your logic is, I still believe every citizen on the island has a right to decide.....kinda how Puerto Rico has a right to choose whether they want to be part of the US or not.

i am against the communist government in china... but i think your view of things is a bit... narrow. the north fought like hell to keep the south from seceding from the union, nobody has a problem with that. well a few people do, but everybody thinks they are whackos.

 

[prontospyder]

the north fought like hell to keep the south from seceding from the union,

Well, Taiwan doesn't have slaves and I think their government gives more freedoms to it's people (so I'm thinking Taiwan is more like the North)

So, do you think East Timor should still be part of Indonesia?

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: prontospyder

the north fought like hell to keep the south from seceding from the union,

Well, Taiwan doesn't have slaves and I think their government gives more freedoms to it's people (so I'm thinking Taiwan is more like the North)

So, do you think East Timor should still be part of Indonesia?

i really don't know about east timor, i don't really pay attention.

ah i see, so you only believe that people have the right to choose their government, as long as *you* deem their government to be okay. i see how that works now. so really, it's just you waiting for them to choose a government that you approve of, before you say "hurrah! self-determination!"

not to mention, the civil war was not all about slaves, that's just a simplification of the whole affair.

 

[prontospyder]

i really don't know about east timor, i don't really pay attention.

And you called me narrow minded.

ah i see, so you only believe that people have the right to choose their government, as long as *you* deem their government to be okay. i see how that works now. so really, it's just you waiting for them to choose a government that you approve of, before you say "hurrah! self-determination!"

I wish that can happen.

 

[LongCoolMother]

cool! this conversation is so interesting! ive been to china twice, and shanghai once.

beijing is definately shaping up when i went 4 months ago, in terms of appearance. theres construction like everywhere you go and everything is getting fixed up. shanghai was really cool, and i suspect the living standard there is incredibly high. my uncle lives in shanghai and his house was absoultely huge and really nice.

kunming was really nice too, nothing like what i had heard abotu before about china. but then again, the common people there are really a lot poorer, and some uneducated.

anyway, my parents are chinese and refer to themselves as chinese, even though my mom and dad both grew up in taipei, taiwan.

my grandparents fled from nanking at the time the communists invaded. my grandpa was apart of the nationalist party army officer and he fled on a military ship along with (whats that guys name? chain kai shehk?) to taipei. my dad was supposedly only 3 motnhs old at the time. anyway, my dad's family got away, but my gradma's brothers and sisters were still stuck in china, they didnt get out in time, and so they lived there for years, with no contact of my grandma or her parents. they couldnt write mail, phone, or any form of contact because of the rivalry between china & taiwan.

finally, 3 years ago, they located each other somehow, and my grandma went to china to meet them after not seeing brother and sisters for more then 40 years . it was then when she told them their mother had died. my dad also went, and i was there when my uncle told him "i havent seen you since you were just born!". man it was sad . lol

anyway, that brings me to my point on the subject of taiwan people sharing different opinions. my parents and my relatives all dont support the independence of taiwan, even though they came and grew up there. my parents have friends from taiwan that support both taiwan independence AND reunification.

then again, its kind of weird, because my dad told me they dont fit in anywhere. when they go to china, they dont know how things work there, and they dont speak the dialects there. but in taiwan, they arent accepted either because they arent "taiwanese" and dont speak the taiwanese language.

 

[rufruf44]

Originally posted by: prontospyder

the north fought like hell to keep the south from seceding from the union,

Well, Taiwan doesn't have slaves and I think their government gives more freedoms to it's people (so I'm thinking Taiwan is more like the North)

So, do you think East Timor should still be part of Indonesia?

East Timor was foolish imo to seceed from Indonesia. They have no significant amount of natural resources except for the possibility of oil in the deep sea (which Australia already lay claim on it), no industries, no foreign investment and a non-existen economy. They're pretty much being sustained by the UN right now. They're not in any major shipping chanel, so they won't generate much trade nor traffic. Their only neighbour is Indonesia or Australia, both which will not care about them (despite Australia claims to the contrary).

Taiwan situation is off course much better than that. But personally, If I were China, I couldn't care less about that island. Their economy is slipping, their textile industry is going south due to pressure from cheaper product from China, as well as their high tech industry also jumping the strait toward cheaper labor in China. They lack resources to compete against Chinese or Korean product, while they can't grow to the level where Japan at.

How many people here truely believe that the US will go to war against China anyway, if China invades and conquer Taiwan ? (which probably won't take more than a couple of months, if a full blown assault is launched). This is not some 3rd world country army you're facing, and China is more than capable of inflicting massive damage to the US forces despite the US technological superiority (remember the Korean war?)
And for what purpose exactly would US risk so much casualties for? Taiwan isn't exactly and won't be worth anywhere near Israel when it comes to political and financial influence. The only reason I can think of is to protect Japan from China.

 

[mithrandir2001]

Damn, I would have loved to see Toronto get it.

 

[HamSupLo]

gopunk,

that is one lameass attempt at a Chinese flag, lol

you're right, there haven't been any *physical* fights for a while.

actually, there was a fight just last year when some legislator dude slapped or pushed some female legislator. it was captured live on TV. Speaking of taiwan politics, I love it. That sex vcd with Chu Mei Feng was smashing!

There is one China, with Chinese people on both sides of the straits. Unless you're one of the Taiwanese aborignies, then you can call yourself whatever you want. I have no problem with a One China with two political states. To say Taiwan is not part of China is just wrong though.

Tibet is a part of China, and always been. I frankly don't care what Tibetans do or how they rule themselves, but to say Tibet is independent from China is just wrong.

Wo men shi zhong guo ren!! zuo ge hao han!!

 

[VFAA]

Ok let's stop bashing Canada and France and let's look at China.

I don't like that countries politics [period]
Someone said something about executions being part of China's culture? Whoever said that, wtf is up with you?!
I can agree to a point that sometimes its necessary to execute someone for rapes and such similar crimes but not for theft, robbery, fights in public (huligans), speaking out against government, posession of tobacco and/or marihuana, etc. That would really piss me off if I was walking with a friend who had a joint in his pocket and we were caught in public. $hitty way to go 4 feet under, don't you think?

[sarcasm on]
I say let's nuke Chinese Government!
[/sarcasm off]

EDIT:

I remember 1 thing from last year that really pissed me off. When China was announced to host Olympics, Chinese Government executed something like 30 prisoners in joy of the news. And what really ticked me off was that it was broadcasted over live TV! :|:disgust:

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: Linflas
I love the condescending attitude of some of the posters here that say China cannot have democracy because of population size, regional differences, lack of modern infrastructure, etc. Somehow democracy has managed to evolve over the centuries in societies that had none of these things and thrive. The single largest impediment to democracy in China is an entrenched totalitarian government that rules with an iron fist.

which societies would those be? i'm interested in hearing what other societies have had 1.5 billion people and successfully went over to democracy cold turkey.

That is an irrelevant question. No country on this planet has had 1.5 billion people in it until China managed to hit this mark sometime in the late 20th Century. And where was it in my post that I suggested that they could switch to democracy "cold turkey" as you call it? I am only disagreeing with the assertion that a totalitarian/communist (although very little of Marx's theory is left in China) government is the only type that can successfully rule China. I have no doubt that given the opportunity China would evolve a democracy in keeping with its cultural history. It may not be our brand of democracy but it would certainly be better than the government that gave the world the picture of the lone man standing down a tank.

 

[VFAA]

...picture of the lone man standing down a tank.

I'm curious, what happened to that man?

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: VFAA

...picture of the lone man standing down a tank.

I'm curious, what happened to that man?

I've always wondered that myself. Sadly the news media is good at getting the 30 second sound bite and photo ops but very bad at following up or getting the in depth story.

 

[sandorski]

I think China is doing what the USSR should have done. That is, establishing a Capitalist free market economy before changing the political system. Not sayin that China will change their political system, but the USSR(Russia) would have avoided a lot of social and economic problems if they had simply eased into Democracy. Russia seems to be improving though.

 

[VFAA]

Originally posted by: VFAA

...picture of the lone man standing down a tank.

I'm curious, what happened to that man?

?

 

[cnwk64]

How many people here truely believe that the US will go to war against China anyway, if China invades and conquer Taiwan ? (which probably won't take more than a couple of months, if a full blown assault is launched). This is not some 3rd world country army you're facing, and China is more than capable of inflicting massive damage to the US forces despite the US technological superiority (remember the Korean war?)
And for what purpose exactly would US risk so much casualties for? Taiwan isn't exactly and won't be worth anywhere near Israel when it comes to political and financial influence. The only reason I can think of is to protect Japan from China.

I have to agree with you 100%, I don't like China's Gov at all. In fact, I HATE the Gov. that control what its citizen can see from Internet (entire China is under giant firewall thanks to China Gov and Notel).

But their is no way China will let Taiwan go independent. you can argue all you want weather Taiwan is part of China or not (I think Taiwan belong to China, just not the current China Gov), The day Taiwan goes independent is the day China going to take Taiwan by any means.

US Gov won't risk any US citizen's life to defend Taiwan. NOT a chance.
I keep hearing some Taiwanese people (very small % and most of them live outside Taiwan) who wants Taiwan to be independent, so they can have respect from other countries and themselve. WTF, when Taiwan is taking over by China will you go back to Taiwan and died for it?

 

[Dhruv]

Originally posted by: rufruf44

Originally posted by: prontospyder

the north fought like hell to keep the south from seceding from the union,

Well, Taiwan doesn't have slaves and I think their government gives more freedoms to it's people (so I'm thinking Taiwan is more like the North)

So, do you think East Timor should still be part of Indonesia?

East Timor was foolish imo to seceed from Indonesia. They have no significant amount of natural resources except for the possibility of oil in the deep sea (which Australia already lay claim on it), no industries, no foreign investment and a non-existen economy. They're pretty much being sustained by the UN right now. They're not in any major shipping chanel, so they won't generate much trade nor traffic. Their only neighbour is Indonesia or Australia, both which will not care about them (despite Australia claims to the contrary).

Taiwan situation is off course much better than that. But personally, If I were China, I couldn't care less about that island. Their economy is slipping, their textile industry is going south due to pressure from cheaper product from China, as well as their high tech industry also jumping the strait toward cheaper labor in China. They lack resources to compete against Chinese or Korean product, while they can't grow to the level where Japan at.

How many people here truely believe that the US will go to war against China anyway, if China invades and conquer Taiwan ? (which probably won't take more than a couple of months, if a full blown assault is launched). This is not some 3rd world country army you're facing, and China is more than capable of inflicting massive damage to the US forces despite the US technological superiority (remember the Korean war?)
And for what purpose exactly would US risk so much casualties for? Taiwan isn't exactly and won't be worth anywhere near Israel when it comes to political and financial influence. The only reason I can think of is to protect Japan from China.

China is a third world country, and we have U.S. bases much nearer to China than they have to us. I.e. pakistan, afghanistan, Turkey, Japan, Taiwan. we'll suffer losses, but it will be 1000 to 1, if not more. By the time 1 Chinese jet fighter reaches our shores, 10,000 bombs would have dropped in Beijing. China has a HUGE army, and they will inflict damage, but you're giving them too much credit.

 

[gopunk]

China is a third world country, and we have U.S. bases much nearer to China than they have to us. I.e. pakistan, afghanistan, Turkey, Japan, Taiwan. we'll suffer losses, but it will be 1000 to 1, if not more. By the time 1 Chinese jet fighter reaches our shores, 10,000 bombs would have dropped in Beijing. China has a HUGE army, and they will inflict damage, but you're giving them too much credit.

1.) china is not a third world country. if you had any clue of what it's like over there, you would know this.

2.) 10,000 bombs? are you stupid? the goal would be to take out the government, not kill everybody in china. bombing works in other countries because they are sparsley populated.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: gopunk

1.) china is not a third world country. if you had any clue of what it's like over there, you would know this.

actually once they broke from the USSR back in the 50s or whenever they became 3rd world.