I have to agree with that too. Isn't this thread about Olympic rather than politics?
and, as for you, MartyTheManiak, maybe you're one of the reason why the Canadian didn't get to host. LOL, "piss off" because toronto didn't get to host.
Grow up!
Linflas
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2001
- 15,395
- 78
- 91
I love the condescending attitude of some of the posters here that say China cannot have democracy because of population size, regional differences, lack of modern infrastructure, etc. Somehow democracy has managed to evolve over the centuries in societies that had none of these things and thrive. The single largest impediment to democracy in China is an entrenched totalitarian government that rules with an iron fist.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
Oh come on, those elections are a joke compared to those in a real democracy - China doesn't even pretend it is one.
Wrong. Still happens.
I appreciate your playing devil's advocate but something you need to realize is that if the US where you live now is no better than China and just "different" then how can you have any pride in yourself? How can you fight for your own way of life when in actual fact you're not even convinced it's any better than China's? What's the point?
Oh ok, while we're at it I really don't have anything wrong with the old governmental system in Afgahnistan and in fact I think there is nothing wrong with government-sponsored executions where people are stoned to death in the middle east. That's just how they do it. Who am I to judge? And women can't drive in Saudi Arabia? Well that's just their way of doing things. It doesn't mean we're any better than them - just different. (sorry I don't buy it).
I can't say I expected any better on Anandtech. Look, you may have a different opinion but as I mentioned above how can a person sit in their computer chair and try and claim that the laws in a place like China (or some pissant hole in the middle east) are no worse than those in the US (since most people here live in the US)? If you truly believe that why do you even bother paying taxes towards your military or trying to defend your homeland? How can you have any patriotism if you try and pretend that all countries are equal? All countries aren't equal. It may not be PC and it may not match up with chapter 2 of your sociology classbut yes some political climates are - gasp - better than others. Just ask the people living there. Just don't ask them with police nearby; you may be condeming them to jail time if you do.
Yeah, and they couold do the same in the US but would it really fly? Nope. Do you think it would be cool to introduce a "lose your hand for shop lifting some makeup"-law in the US? It would cut crime as well, but at what price? I've been to about 10 nations across the world and although I liked aspects of all of them I still come back to my love of the western world
Exactly.
As most people with the "condescending attitude" have mentioned (including me), China in itself is a unique situation. You cannot compare it's society to others. I suggest, if you haven't done so already, to take a trip to China and see for yourself.
Linflas
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2001
- 15,395
- 78
- 91
I would love to visit China someday. I will accept the conditions there as you state them and still be of the opinion that democracy would work given the opportunity. Every democratic country has had unique conditions that had to be overcome for democracy to evolve and there is no reason IMHO that it could not do the same in China given the chance. You really have to look no further than to the hints of it that where coming forward up until the actions at Tianenman Square brought it to a swift halt.
Nitemare
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2001
- 35,461
- 4
- 81
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: rufruf44
Originally posted by: gopunk
i don't understand, you don't have much beef with china's treatment of their own people, yet you have a beef with how they treat their own people? you know that there is no such country called "tibet" and that "tibet" is just another name for a province of china.... just like taiwan
you do know most younger generation in taiwan consider themself as taiwanese (not chinese) and look at the mainland people as an inferior, poor and stupid race?
yea, it makes me sad to see such... oh... what's the word...
have you ever talked to a dumbass who's complaining about how dumb other people are? makes you smile, doesn't it?
btw, i don't think it's just younger generation... in my experience most people there have disdain for the mainland and distance themselves by calling themselves taiwanese.
That would be akin to a person from India to dare call themselves an Indian and not a Brit. Taiwan is self controlled now and removed from China Imperialism. Why can't they be called Taiwanese? I've never met any of the youth of China but some adults and all of them disliked being called Chinese. To them China is no more than a bully trying to takeover their nation....this is where the dislike is not that all Chinese are stupid ignorants.
As far as China executing murderer, rapists and violent thiefs...Bling Bling!
but you do have the occasional dissident who has spoken up against the Chinese government who have been labeled as a heretic or traitor and summarily executed...this is what they have to work on, not their execution of pieces of crap, like rapists and murderers.
virtuamike
Diamond Member
- Oct 13, 2000
- 7,845
- 13
- 81
Damn PC hippie advocates, I don't see you all shedding tears over how this country was responsible for the genocide of a continent full of native americans. Nah we'll just stick them on reservations on the crappiest plots of land this gov't can find and we'll tell the rest of the world we're doing them a favor. Then we'll create affirmative action and allow Indian gaming and all is good again right?
I don't see why the Olympics should be about politics. If it was just about sports then Munich never would've happened. Business is business. Gov't is gov't. Sports is sports. Don't mix them all up. It's all you damn PC fanatics that are gonna screw up US-Sino relations, all based on some Hollywood hype over OCP and Tibet and Taiwan. I'm not saying that the issues don't exist but 1. it's none of your damn business how China wants to run it's country and 2. unless you're there you have no fvcking idea what goes on so stop getting your panties all bunched up. It's this whole notion that the US is the world's police and that we're this righteous moral system that all other countries should aspire to be that makes us so damn hated in the eyes of the rest of the world.
Make no mistake, I am damn proud to be an American, but that doesn't give me the right to slam other countries and get all up in their sh1t. Somewhere along the line the US lost its humbleness and it fvcked up our relations in the Middle East. At this point in time I rank China and India as the 2 countries I fear most (in that order), so please don't piss them off with any more of your jibber jabber. Anyways that's my $.02 on the issue, flame on.
I don't see why the Olympics should be about politics. If it was just about sports then Munich never would've happened. Business is business. Gov't is gov't. Sports is sports. Don't mix them all up. It's all you damn PC fanatics that are gonna screw up US-Sino relations, all based on some Hollywood hype over OCP and Tibet and Taiwan. I'm not saying that the issues don't exist but 1. it's none of your damn business how China wants to run it's country and 2. unless you're there you have no fvcking idea what goes on so stop getting your panties all bunched up. It's this whole notion that the US is the world's police and that we're this righteous moral system that all other countries should aspire to be that makes us so damn hated in the eyes of the rest of the world.
Make no mistake, I am damn proud to be an American, but that doesn't give me the right to slam other countries and get all up in their sh1t. Somewhere along the line the US lost its humbleness and it fvcked up our relations in the Middle East. At this point in time I rank China and India as the 2 countries I fear most (in that order), so please don't piss them off with any more of your jibber jabber. Anyways that's my $.02 on the issue, flame on.
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Oh come on, those elections are a joke compared to those in a real democracy - China doesn't even pretend it is one.Wrong. Still happens.I appreciate your playing devil's advocate but something you need to realize is that if the US where you live now is no better than China and just "different" then how can you have any pride in yourself? How can you fight for your own way of life when in actual fact you're not even convinced it's any better than China's? What's the point?Oh ok, while we're at it I really don't have anything wrong with the old governmental system in Afgahnistan and in fact I think there is nothing wrong with government-sponsored executions where people are stoned to death in the middle east. That's just how they do it. Who am I to judge? And women can't drive in Saudi Arabia? Well that's just their way of doing things. It doesn't mean we're any better than them - just different. (sorry I don't buy it).I can't say I expected any better on Anandtech. Look, you may have a different opinion but as I mentioned above how can a person sit in their computer chair and try and claim that the laws in a place like China (or some pissant hole in the middle east) are no worse than those in the US (since most people here live in the US)? If you truly believe that why do you even bother paying taxes towards your military or trying to defend your homeland? How can you have any patriotism if you try and pretend that all countries are equal? All countries aren't equal. It may not be PC and it may not match up with chapter 2 of your sociology classbut yes some political climates are - gasp - better than others. Just ask the people living there. Just don't ask them with police nearby; you may be condeming them to jail time if you do.Yeah, and they couold do the same in the US but would it really fly? Nope. Do you think it would be cool to introduce a "lose your hand for shop lifting some makeup"-law in the US? It would cut crime as well, but at what price? I've been to about 10 nations across the world and although I liked aspects of all of them I still come back to my love of the western worldExactly.
I never claimed the law in China is the same level with the US, Skoorb, nor that I claimed that all country are equal. They have their differences, and no one is perfect. I was pointing out how even in the US, where you come to earn a living, there're people that still living in similar condition to those that lives in rural china (if not worst) and if you haven't ever visited China, you'll be surprised on how high the standard living is, especially in the bigger metropolitan area. Still not yet as good as what you would expect in here, but pretty good nonetheless. Your perception on china is negatively skewed and we're pointing out where we disagree on.
I'm not going to defend their record, as a matter of fact, I agree with you that their form of goverment suck in many ways. But their comunist regime WORK in china. Yes, they're one of the most corrupted country in the world, yes they have a suspectible law process (at least in western standard) but it has done the job. There's no civil unrest, the criminal rates is nowhere near the US crime rates and they dont have nearly as many leeches feeding on the welfare like in the US. The growth rate is amazing and China is gaining more and more cloud in the international market.
You said yourself that they can not enforce a "cut hand for shoplifting" law in the US because the culture would reject it. In the same token, why won't you acknowledge that what might work here in the US, could be a very bad mistake in China and stop comparing them to the western standard ?
Would a western democracy system work better in China ? maybe, maybe not. No one would dare to guarantee that 100%. Take a good look at Russia and how miserable they become after they tried the Western democracy system. As I stated before, they have low points and good points, no single country in the world is perfect, nor their law and values. Not even the US, no matter how impossible it seems to some people.
And as for the olympics, people are upset because a city in China won it. Well, what do you think about all the bribery going on that landed Salt Lake the winter Olympic and Sydney the Summer Olympic? Not exactly winning it fair and square is it? Its a business decision by the IOC just like any other.
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: rufruf44
Originally posted by: gopunk
i don't understand, you don't have much beef with china's treatment of their own people, yet you have a beef with how they treat their own people? you know that there is no such country called "tibet" and that "tibet" is just another name for a province of china.... just like taiwan
you do know most younger generation in taiwan consider themself as taiwanese (not chinese) and look at the mainland people as an inferior, poor and stupid race?
yea, it makes me sad to see such... oh... what's the word...
have you ever talked to a dumbass who's complaining about how dumb other people are? makes you smile, doesn't it?
btw, i don't think it's just younger generation... in my experience most people there have disdain for the mainland and distance themselves by calling themselves taiwanese.
That would be akin to a person from India to dare call themselves an Indian and not a Brit. Taiwan is self controlled now and removed from China Imperialism. Why can't they be called Taiwanese? I've never met any of the youth of China but some adults and all of them disliked being called Chinese. To them China is no more than a bully trying to takeover their nation....this is where the dislike is not that all Chinese are stupid ignorants.
As far as China executing murderer, rapists and violent thiefs...Bling Bling!
but you do have the occasional dissident who has spoken up against the Chinese government who have been labeled as a heretic or traitor and summarily executed...this is what they have to work on, not their execution of pieces of crap, like rapists and murderers.
I agree, and, like the Taiwanese who are independent, the Tibetans wish to be too. They have every right to be.
That would be akin to a person from India to dare call themselves an Indian and not a Brit. Taiwan is self controlled now and removed from China Imperialism. Why can't they be called Taiwanese? I've never met any of the youth of China but some adults and all of them disliked being called Chinese. To them China is no more than a bully trying to takeover their nation....this is where the dislike is not that all Chinese are stupid ignorants.
no, actually it wouldn't be akin to that. it would be akin to alaska attempting to secede from the union and calling themselves alaskans instead of americans. i will never call the chinese people on taiwan taiwanese, the only people that should be called that are the dark skinned tribesmen that were there long before anybody else was.
i think maybe we're confusing ourselves. they are chinese in blood, that is what i mean to say. like even though i am an american citizen, i still call myself chinese.
no, actually it wouldn't be akin to that. it would be akin to alaska attempting to secede from the union and calling themselves alaskans instead of americans. i will never call the chinese people on taiwan taiwanese, the only people that should be called that are the dark skinned tribesmen that were there long before anybody else was.
i think maybe we're confusing ourselves. they are chinese in blood, that is what i mean to say. like even though i am an american citizen, i still call myself chinese.
Nitemare
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2001
- 35,461
- 4
- 81
Then everyone that came over on the Mayflower, the Santa Maria and the Pinta can not call themselves Americans. They should be called Spaniards, Brits and frenchmen. I do not have the privilege of calling myself anything than an American since I have mixed blood in me including Native American. You can call yourself Chinese all you want, but look at the money you spend everyday, the post office, the voting booths...all that is American.
I know Shanghai and Hong Kong has an impressive skyline (they have many great skyscrapers proposed) but the government in Beijing is still communist and I won't change my views on the government of China until there's a democratic regime change
For 5000 years, the Chinese people were ruled mostly by totalitarian governments. It'll be hard for the people to adjust to democracy. There will definitely be some difficulties in the new government....but I'm sure China will be able to do it....and will be a better country because of it.
Just look at Taiwan....there were problems in the transition from totalitarianism to democracy but it's working. There's no civil war or internal strife. The Taiwanese people value democracy. As the Wall Street Journal says, Taiwan has the most flourishing democracy in Asia right now.
Yes the Chinese government sucks, there's no denying that, but life in China is not as bad as a lot of you make it out to be. There's no reason to demonize a peoples or their way of life if you have never had first hand experience of the situation over there.
ManSnake
Diamond Member
- Oct 26, 2000
- 4,749
- 1
- 0
Here is something for all you Taiwan independence supporters to ponder about, a simple argument I made several years ago regarding the issue,
The American position is clear, as has been reiterated by all administrations since Nixon. Any cursory research will show that:
When China and the U.S. formally established diplomatic ties in 1979, the communique had the following words: "The United States of America recognizes the Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legal government of China. Within this context, the people of the United States will maintain cultural, commercial, and other unofficial relations with the people of Taiwan . . . . The Government of the United States of America acknowledges the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China."
In a later joint Communique, America stated that: " The United States acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China. The United States Government does not challenge that position. It reaffirms its interest in a peaceful settlement of the Taiwan question by the Chinese themselves. "
The syllogism is clear:
1. The Taiwan question is to be determined by the Chinese on both sides of the Straits.
2. All Chinese recognize ONE CHINA, and Taiwan as part of that CHINA.
3. Taiwanese are not Chinese if they do not support ONE CHINA, and therefore has no say at all. ______________________________________
That is why TIers are the true trouble makers, trying to drag American military into an internal problem of the Chinese.
The American position is clear, as has been reiterated by all administrations since Nixon. Any cursory research will show that:
When China and the U.S. formally established diplomatic ties in 1979, the communique had the following words: "The United States of America recognizes the Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legal government of China. Within this context, the people of the United States will maintain cultural, commercial, and other unofficial relations with the people of Taiwan . . . . The Government of the United States of America acknowledges the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China."
In a later joint Communique, America stated that: " The United States acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China. The United States Government does not challenge that position. It reaffirms its interest in a peaceful settlement of the Taiwan question by the Chinese themselves. "
The syllogism is clear:
1. The Taiwan question is to be determined by the Chinese on both sides of the Straits.
2. All Chinese recognize ONE CHINA, and Taiwan as part of that CHINA.
3. Taiwanese are not Chinese if they do not support ONE CHINA, and therefore has no say at all. ______________________________________
That is why TIers are the true trouble makers, trying to drag American military into an internal problem of the Chinese.
Its very humorous seeing white people bash a country they've never been to nor have first-hand knowledge of.
Don't believe everything you read - reporters are the salesmen of newspapers and mags.
Don't believe everything you read - reporters are the salesmen of newspapers and mags.
Then why was the Chinese government so angry when the Taiwanese president hinted at letting the people of Taiwan decide their fate in an election?
It would be much easier to accept if the Chinese government is democratically elected. Why would any logical Taiwanese citizen wanna give up their hard earned freedoms?
How wonderful....only people who agrees with the communists are allowed to decide Taiwan's fate. And for the people who don't agree...should they be executed in a public stadium?
I have no problems with Taiwan reuniting with China.....if there's a regime change. But even if there's a regime change, it's up to the people of Taiwan to decide their fate in an election.....WITHOUT Chinese missiles pointing and military exercises close to home.
that ain't saying much.... there's no internal strife? hello? have you seen footage of their wwf congress in action?
are you telling me i'm not chinese?
you must have missed the last sentence of my post.... we're confusing nationality with ethnicity. the majority of people on taiwan are chinese in ethnicity. the nationality is still up for grabs i guess.
which societies would those be? i'm interested in hearing what other societies have had 1.5 billion people and successfully went over to democracy cold turkey.
Oh come on, those elections are a joke compared to those in a real democracy - China doesn't even pretend it is one.
so? that's not what i was talking about, obviously the term "election" is not foreign to the chinese. which is what some posters were asserting.
what the hell are you talking about? i can't respond to this because what you just said is completely irrelevant to what i wrote. when did i say you couldn't judge? huh? YOU SHOW ME WHERE. all i'm saying is that you people are obviously CLUELESS as to how things in china really are. just look at this thread, can it be any more obvious who's actually been to china and who hasn't? it's blatantly obvious to me, because those who haven't are just speaking out of their asses. yea it's such a big sh!thole, that's why nobody who's actually been to china thinks that....
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GO CHINA GO CHINA GO CHINA WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
qi lai! qi lai! nu li de ren men qi lai!
so? that's not what i was talking about, obviously the term "election" is not foreign to the chinese. which is what some posters were asserting.
what the hell are you talking about? i can't respond to this because what you just said is completely irrelevant to what i wrote. when did i say you couldn't judge? huh? YOU SHOW ME WHERE. all i'm saying is that you people are obviously CLUELESS as to how things in china really are. just look at this thread, can it be any more obvious who's actually been to china and who hasn't? it's blatantly obvious to me, because those who haven't are just speaking out of their asses. yea it's such a big sh!thole, that's why nobody who's actually been to china thinks that....
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GO CHINA GO CHINA GO CHINA WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
qi lai! qi lai! nu li de ren men qi lai!
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