Why did China get the Olympics, again?

[gopunk]

He is correct Gopunk. I have spoken with Taiwanese people. They tell me they have a different language even. She says she doesn't speak Cantonese or Mandarin, but Taiwanese. She made that VERY clear to me. And those are Taiwanese, people that are much similar to mainland Chinese than Tibetans ever were.

i know he is correct, did i ever say he wasn't? no, i agreed with him in fact. they don't have a different language, they have a different dialect of chinese. it's mangled and hard to understand, but it is a dialect of chinese. it's not like cantonese and mandarin are very similar btw, but they are both considered to be chinese. your friend made that very clear to you because like all good taiwanese children, she's been brainwashed to hate china.

Tibetans ARE NOT CHINESE. Province, by whose standards?

by the world's. everybody knows it's a province, the only people who don't believe it are people who don't know any better. the cia knows it's a province: cia factbook.

Certainly not by the Tibetans. They are imperialists. Thats like saying that the people of Hong Kong were British prior to 97. Clearly, they were not. Tibetans are VERY different from mainland Chinese

are hawaiians american? btw, hong kong was *leased* to great britain. so of course they were not british. when you lease a property, do you say that you own the property?

and the Chinese government is an oppressive POS when it comes to the treatment of ethnic minorities in that country, esp. Tibetans, Falun Gong practicioners, Muslims, etc. etc.

i disagree with the treatment of ethnic minorities, but that doesn't mean it's not part of the country. btw regarding the last two, if i were running a country, i would also persecute quack cults and religious extremists/terrorists. which is exactly what the falun gong and muslim minority are.

 

[Bluga]

Have any of you been to China lately?

I was there last month and i don't feel and communism going on (except for state controled media), i feel f*** safe walking on the street late night, because they punish crime hard as hell. Unlike States where people have to have guns to feel safe.

Take a look at Shanghai, tell me does this look communist of capitalist?

Most westerners are seriously mis-informed because medias only report the negatives.

 

[Dhruv]

A) I really don't care what the U.S. government *thinks *. I've pointed out in other posts that our country is hypocritical in its dealings with China. most rational thinking, educated people will agree with that statement. I don't care if the CIA does say its a province, that doesn' tmean its set in stone. Do you believe that our military *accidentally* bombed the Chinese embassy in Serbia? Thats the statement our government made. I certainly don't believe it.

I've never stepped a foot in China, you probably have. But have you stepped a foot in Tibetan territory? Have you spoken with Tibetans? I have. One of my close friends from H.S. is active in the free tibet movement. There is documentation that the Chiense government brutally oppresses those peace loving people. Tibet has its own unique culture and just because the map says its a part of China doesn't make it morally acceptable.

 

[rufruf44]

Originally posted by: Dhruv

Originally posted by: jooksing
McPhreak said it right...an authoritarian government is the best for China right now. Democracy will not work in present China. Introducing democracy to a country of 1.2 billion people will result into civil war and chaos. There is no one size fits all for China because it's a country that's fragmented by ethnic and regional differences. It is not a homogenous country that people think it is.

I see too many people have been brainwashed by anti-chinese propaganda. Infantcide does happen, but it's mainly confined to the rural areas out in Western China where old customs would persist. It's something that happened in the PAST, in the rural backwaters of China. Belief that waves of Chinese parents are killing their infant daughters is just complete and utter B.S.

And who are we to criticize China for the execution of prisoners? these are convicted criminals committing henious crimes. Same goes here in America. Don't you guys believe in "An eye for an eye?" Don't tell me David WEsterfield doesn't deserve the death penalty for killing a little girl. At least they don't drag the appeals process through the court system for years creating additional anguish for the victims and their families.

Here in the U.S., the poor and especially if you're black are more likely to get sentenced to death. We even put innocent people on deathrow. Again, who are we to criticize China? And also, their trials are rushed? Been watching too much "Red Corner" with Richard Gere? ahhaah. The execution is carried out not at the end of criminal proceedings, but after it's been determined by the court that the defendant's appeal is denied. It's at the conclusion of the appeals process. Same goes here in the U.S.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but it looks like many of you are misinformed and hold some sort of grudge against China.

You shouldn't be playing devils advocate. It won't get you anywhere in regards this particular situation. How can you say that democracy won't work for 1.2 billion people? India has over 1 billion people and is FAR, FAR FAR more heterogenous than China is. You have all major races that are in that country, all major religions, and about 1000 variations of languages, and about 50 major distinct languages, yet it is not going thru civil war. You have a country with 18% Muslim populations, and riots occur, but definitely far from any civil war you talk of. As i've said myself, communism is the fastest way to develop a nation, but its not the only way to develop a poor nation. The infantcide and all that you talk about does happen quite a bit, even the government plays a role in reproduction in that country.. do you think that is fair? shouldn't the government stay out of it? Communism, can be good, ask a Romani or a Uzbek living in Russia about that, esp. with a diverse nation, but not having it doesn't mean the country will go to shreds...

"these are convicted criminals committing henious crimes" how can we know what the reasons are when the media is controlled by the government. remember you only see what they wish you to see.

You are forgetting one simple fact, Chinese are not Indian. Something that might work for someone, doesn't necessarily meant it will work for another. Just as you dispute jooksing's claim, how can you prove that democracy will work for China ? India almost got plunged into a civil war after the British left, if Nehru and Ali doesn't come to their sense and decided to simply split the nation.
Comunism can be good, just ask the Serbs or Kroats during the Tito's era. But as people enjoy greater standard of living, they'll be less inclined to continue to stick with Comunism.

 

[Dhruv]

Originally posted by: Bluga
Have any of you been to China lately?

I was there last month and i don't feel and communism going on (except for state controled media), i feel f*** safe walking on the street late night, because they punish crime hard as hell. Unlike States where people have to have guns to feel safe.

Take a look at Shanghai, tell me does this look communist of capitalist?

wow, what pretty buildings, i think i'm gonna move to China!

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: Bluga
Have any of you been to China lately?

I was there last month and i don't feel and communism going on (except for state controled media), i feel f*** safe walking on the street late night, because they punish crime hard as hell. Unlike States where people have to have guns to feel safe.

Take a look at Shanghai, tell me does this look communist of capitalist?

yes, thank you for bringing up that excellent point. if your only exposure to china has been through hippies talking about tibet and the falun gong, then please please please at least make some attempt to educate yourself. it's amazing the amount of ignorance that is shown.... if somebody from another country went to you and said "man your country sucks, everybody is in a gang, the government executes so many people, kids shooting up schools and teachers having sex with their students is a common occurance", you would think they were just ignorant and were exposed to a very small aspect of american culture. well, that's how you guys all sound.

 

[ManSnake]

First of all, what does China getting the Olympics have anything to do with the government's execution of criminals?

Secondly, China is not a communist nation, it is socialist at best with a capitalistic economy.

Also every family in China can now have two kids. In the past, people were not forced to kill off their own offspring, if a couple have more than one kid, the parents will be fined and their childern will not enjoy the socialist benefits such as free health care. FYI, the one child policy was not enforced until after 1981.

BTW where did some of you get the info that the family of the executed need to pay the government money for the cost of the bullet? The family will have to pay the government for the cremation and burial fee if they want the deceased to be buried.

How do I know these? I have been to China five times, a sinophile and I have many Chinese friends (1/4 Chinese myself).

 

[gopunk]

I really don't care what the U.S. government *thinks *.

thinks? a country is not a country unless it is accepted by other nations as a country. tibet is not recognized by ANYBODY as a country. by anybody, i mean power, i don't mean individuals, because some individuals also think that the moon landing was fake. a province does not suddenly become a country just because *you* think it is one, or just because the people there think it is. there was a city in america that wanted to secede (i forget their name), but are they their own country? no, nobody but a fool would think that.

I've never stepped a foot in China, you probably have. But have you stepped a foot in Tibetan territory? Have you spoken with Tibetans? I have. One of my close friends from H.S. is active in the free tibet movement. There is documentation that the Chiense government brutally oppresses those peace loving people. Tibet has its own unique culture and just because the map says its a part of China doesn't make it morally acceptable.

no, i never said it was. but tibet is still part of china. i completely agree, it is wrong, the chinese government should stop. and i know tibet has it's own culture... just like the peace loving people of hawaii have their own culture.

 

[Dhruv]

Originally posted by: rufruf44

Originally posted by: Dhruv

Originally posted by: jooksing
Introducing democracy to a country of 1.2 billion people will result into civil war and chaos. There is no one size fits all for China because it's a country that's fragmented by ethnic and regional differences. It is not a homogenous country that people think it is.

By this you are implying that a country with 1.2 billion people that is fragmented by ethnic and regional differences will go to shreds if its democratic. I am saying that this is an invalid statement. Yeah Chinese are not Indian, but they are both Asian countries trying to struggle to develop their economy and get rid of their poor and are both countries that are heterogenous and divided by regional, racial, religious, cultural, and language differences. And how do we know democracy won't work in China, when we haven't given it a try. China had to give communism a try to, to see if it worked, so why can't they give democracy a try.

*btw, i'm not advocating China actually become democratic, i'm merely refuting the statement that a highly populated, heterogenous nation will go to shreds UNLESS its communist. This is an inaccurate statement imo.*

 

[HamSupLo]

You shouldn't be playing devils advocate. It won't get you anywhere in regards this particular situation. How can you say that democracy won't work for 1.2 billion people? India has over 1 billion people and is FAR, FAR FAR more heterogenous than China is. You have all major races that are in that country, all major religions, and about 1000 variations of languages, and about 50 major distinct languages, yet it is not going thru civil war. You have a country with 18% Muslim populations, and riots occur, but definitely far from any civil war you talk of. As i've said myself, communism is the fastest way to develop a nation, but its not the only way to develop a poor nation. The infantcide and all that you talk about does happen quite a bit, even the government plays a role in reproduction in that country.. do you think that is fair? shouldn't the government stay out of it? Communism, can be good, ask a Romani or a Uzbek living in Russia about that, esp. with a diverse nation, but not having it doesn't mean the country will go to shreds...

"these are convicted criminals committing henious crimes" how can we know what the reasons are when the media is controlled by the government. remember you only see what they wish you to see.

You must have forgotten what happened to India when the britsh left. Ever wonder how Pakistan and Bangaledesh were formed? Millions of people died. I guess that's not enough of a civil strife to you? The conflict between hindus and muslims are still a very serious matter in India today. I think it transcends "it's just a few riots". If the same transformation that India underwent happens to China, I'd bet millions more will die. Regionally, China has been very divided between North and South ethnically, and we are only talking about within the Han group which makes up like 98% of the population. Then there's also the economic disparity between West and East.

If you have looked at Chinese history, with every major change in government, there has been widespread conflict between the different groups I had mentioned. A democratic government will not be able to unite the country together. It hasn't happened in the past, and it probably won't happen now.

And that infantcide issue, I'm not denying that it doesn't exist, but I'm willing to bet the number is very very very small. I think we all need to stop listening to those Hollywood activist and put down our Amy Tan Joyluck Club books.

 

[Dhruv]

Originally posted by: gopunk
I really don't care what the U.S. government *thinks *.

thinks? a country is not a country unless it is accepted by other nations as a country. tibet is not recognized by ANYBODY as a country. by anybody, i mean power, i don't mean individuals, because some individuals also think that the moon landing was fake. a province does not suddenly become a country just because *you* think it is one, or just because the people there think it is. there was a city in america that wanted to secede (i forget their name), but are they their own country? no, nobody but a fool would think that.

Uhh.. what the hell? I don't think I ever referred to Tibet as a country, I meant Tibet as an entity, a separate entity with its own people that are unique from mainland Chinese, and, most importantly, people who wish to be free of Chinese rule. This last part is what makes all the difference.

 

[rufruf44]

Originally posted by: ManSnake

BTW where did some of you get the info that the family of the executed need to pay the government money for the cost of the bullet? The family will have to pay the government for the cremation and burial fee if they want the deceased to be buried.

How do I know these? I have been to China five times, a sinophile and I have many Chinese friends (1/4 Chinese myself).

IIRC that was perpetuated during the Tianamen square massacre, and I think hold true in some cases where they executed some student leader. China has problems, there's no denying that, but what country in this world that doesn't have its own share of problem ? Take their whale hunting away and you'll have some very very very angry viking descendant ready to rip people head off

OTOH, China has succesfully destroy HK, imo. Its just keep going down the drain since the took over.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: aswedc
So they're executing criminals. I couldn't care less....it might not hurt to kill the rapists here too.

Yeah right. The US has execution as well but at least it doesn't hand out execution sentences like it's going outta style. There are lengthy criminal processes and only for the most severe crimes. Do you think people in China get a fair shot at the judicial process? What about the accuracy of their convictions? Few countries are as mass-minded as China, and that is why in China lives have less meaning than in most other places in the world. They love to kill their own citizens (check out the crowd in that picture - I think I see a guy selling hot dogs), and parents love to kill their own kids if it's not a boy. Lovely society they have over there!

Ah yes, the lengthy US trials in which retards with IQs under 60 get a death sentence, while they cannot possibly be held responsible for their action(s). I couldn't care less for rapists getting killed, you cannot be hard enough on crimes like that.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: Dhruv

Originally posted by: gopunk
I really don't care what the U.S. government *thinks *.

thinks? a country is not a country unless it is accepted by other nations as a country. tibet is not recognized by ANYBODY as a country. by anybody, i mean power, i don't mean individuals, because some individuals also think that the moon landing was fake. a province does not suddenly become a country just because *you* think it is one, or just because the people there think it is. there was a city in america that wanted to secede (i forget their name), but are they their own country? no, nobody but a fool would think that.

Uhh.. what the hell? I don't think I ever referred to Tibet as a country, I meant Tibet as an entity, a separate entity with its own people that are unique from mainland Chinese, and, most importantly, people who wish to be free of Chinese rule. This last part is what makes all the difference.

ok fine, my mistake.... i assumed that if an "entity" wasn't part of another country, then it had to be it's own country. my bad. but anyways, the whole world knows it's a province. i don't see how you can think it is not one... america was a bunch british colonies until they won the revolutionary war.

 

[dexvx]

People from Taiwan sway both ways. I know a professor from Marquette University whos a diehard pro-Communist (dont ask). Frankly I dont know wtf the overall feeling about Taiwan is, but I strongly disagree with its formal independance. Unification should be the goal there.

As for the issue of Tibet. Go read any college level history text. Tibet before the Communist takeover was a theocratic feudal society (middle ages/pre-Imperial Japan) and was one of the few places where serfdom (a nice word for slavery) existed in the 1950s. I dont agree with them taking down their religion, but most of the people that fled were the nobility or religious leaders (usually it plays hand in hand). I dont believe the Tibetans as a whole are any different from other people (unarmed, peace loving, hippy BS).

Human rights violation, thats mostly BS. The thing is, as long as you dont actively and openly (and you need to be really active) defy the government or commit mid to severe level crimes, you have more local freedom than a person in America. Voting is usually on a very local level, and you dont get any kind of provincial/national votes. I disagree with the rapidness of the condemned to be executed (I think there should be a lay time), but the philosophy is that those who are guilty dont deserve to get any grace time. The judgement procedure is on a local level, and from what I hear, its fair. There are mistakes, like any judicial system, but if a mistake is found, then the compensation (in cash) is usually rather large, depending on the case. The reports of slave labor in prison camps are unconfirmed by anyone and are rumors, just like Area 51 in Roswell.

Female infanticide, while I know it exists given the large population, does not take place on a regular basis (or even remotely regular) even in the rural districts. In the rural districts, central Communist Lawmakers in Beijing have no control over what a little official in the middle of nowhere does. Bribe this, bribe that, and there are people with more than 1 child (you ever wonder why the population is growing despite the fact the 1 child policy was enabled in the 70s? Not as fast as it used to, but still pretty fast). Thats also the reason why every Chinese national landmark has turn into a tourist trap :disgust: despite laws saying you cant have commerical/residential within X distance of a monument.

 

[Bluga]

Originally posted by: ManSnake
First of all, what does China getting the Olympics have anything to do with the government's execution of criminals?

Secondly, China is not a communist nation, it is socialist at best with a capitalistic economy.

Also every family in China can now have two kids. In the past, people were not forced to kill off their own offspring, if a couple have more than one kid, the parents will be fined and their childern will not enjoy the socialist benefits such as free health care. FYI, the one child policy was not enforced until after 1981.

BTW where did some of you get the info that the family of the executed need to pay the government money for the cost of the bullet? The family will have to pay the government for the cremation and burial fee if they want the deceased to be buried.

How do I know these? I have been to China five times, a sinophile and I have many Chinese friends (1/4 Chinese myself).

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner! That's exactly what is going on in China now.

 

[Dhruv]

Originally posted by: jooksing

You shouldn't be playing devils advocate. It won't get you anywhere in regards this particular situation. How can you say that democracy won't work for 1.2 billion people? India has over 1 billion people and is FAR, FAR FAR more heterogenous than China is. You have all major races that are in that country, all major religions, and about 1000 variations of languages, and about 50 major distinct languages, yet it is not going thru civil war. You have a country with 18% Muslim populations, and riots occur, but definitely far from any civil war you talk of. As i've said myself, communism is the fastest way to develop a nation, but its not the only way to develop a poor nation. The infantcide and all that you talk about does happen quite a bit, even the government plays a role in reproduction in that country.. do you think that is fair? shouldn't the government stay out of it? Communism, can be good, ask a Romani or a Uzbek living in Russia about that, esp. with a diverse nation, but not having it doesn't mean the country will go to shreds...

"these are convicted criminals committing henious crimes" how can we know what the reasons are when the media is controlled by the government. remember you only see what they wish you to see.

You must have forgotten what happened to India when the britsh left. Ever wonder how Pakistan and Bangaledesh were formed? Millions of people died. I guess that's not enough of a civil strife to you? The conflict between hindus and muslims are still a very serious matter in India today. I think it transcends "it's just a few riots". If the same transformation that India underwent happens to China, I'd bet millions more will die. Regionally, China has been very divided between North and South ethnically, and we are only talking about within the Han group which makes up like 98% of the population. Then there's also the economic disparity between West and East.

If you have looked at Chinese history, with every major change in government, there has been widespread conflict between the different groups I had mentioned. A democratic government will not be able to unite the country together. It hasn't happened in the past, and it probably won't happen now.

And that infantcide issue, I'm not denying that it doesn't exist, but I'm willing to bet the number is very very very small. I think we all need to stop listening to those Hollywood activist and put down our Amy Tan Joyluck Club books.

The reason why millions of people died was NOT because India became democratic. the reason the bloodshed occurred was because the migrations between NW india, now pakistan, and India were done virtually overnight. The British who had ruled that country for hundreds of years, who had provided law and order, and directed the people, all of a sudden left, without regard for placing the people of both communities in their new areas. It was their responsibility to do at least this much, to provide law and order until the newly formed country had some time to stand on its feet. I'm not saying they had to rule, but they should have made sure than a well running, orderly indigenous government was in place and since they were the ones that drew the political boundaries, they should have overseen the migrations that were to take place. It was a country of chaos, without order. Your'e forgetting that China is already a unified nation, with an effective government already in place, and if China was to become democratic, it wouldn't be done in the same rash manner that happened back in 1947 in India.

With regards to Bangladesh, what are you thinking? Bangladesh and Pakistan were not formed at the same time. Pakistan was carved out of india and thats when the millions died. Bangladesh, who were muslim, just like pakistanis, fought Pakistan for their own independence and freedom (kinda like the Tibetans could do to the Chinese...) to become a separate country in the 1970's.

 

[Dhruv]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: Dhruv

Originally posted by: gopunk
I really don't care what the U.S. government *thinks *.

thinks? a country is not a country unless it is accepted by other nations as a country. tibet is not recognized by ANYBODY as a country. by anybody, i mean power, i don't mean individuals, because some individuals also think that the moon landing was fake. a province does not suddenly become a country just because *you* think it is one, or just because the people there think it is. there was a city in america that wanted to secede (i forget their name), but are they their own country? no, nobody but a fool would think that.

Uhh.. what the hell? I don't think I ever referred to Tibet as a country, I meant Tibet as an entity, a separate entity with its own people that are unique from mainland Chinese, and, most importantly, people who wish to be free of Chinese rule. This last part is what makes all the difference.

ok fine, my mistake.... i assumed that if an "entity" wasn't part of another country, then it had to be it's own country. my bad. but anyways, the whole world knows it's a province. i don't see how you can think it is not one... america was a bunch british colonies until they won the revolutionary war.

Gopunk, i'm not saying that the world doesn' trecognize it as a province of china. I'm saying that the people of Tibet are not being treated well and want to the right to self determination and that is not being given to them. Im' saying their culture and history is distinct from the major ethnic group of China's and so should be allowed to live in freedom, not under the rule of communism by a nation that they feel is totally foreign to them.

 

[Dhruv]

Originally posted by: dexvx
People from Taiwan sway both ways. I know a professor from Marquette University whos a diehard pro-Communist (dont ask). Frankly I dont know wtf the overall feeling about Taiwan is, but I strongly disagree with its formal independance. Unification should be the goal there.

As for the issue of Tibet. Go read any college level history text. Tibet before the Communist takeover was a theocratic feudal society (middle ages/pre-Imperial Japan) and was one of the few places where serfdom (a nice word for slavery) existed in the 1950s. I dont agree with them taking down their religion, but most of the people that fled were the nobility or religious leaders (usually it plays hand in hand). I dont believe the Tibetans as a whole are any different from other people (unarmed, peace loving, hippy BS).

Human rights violation, thats mostly BS. The thing is, as long as you dont actively and openly (and you need to be really active) defy the government or commit mid to severe level crimes, you have more local freedom than a person in America. Voting is usually on a very local level, and you dont get any kind of provincial/national votes. I disagree with the rapidness of the condemned to be executed (I think there should be a lay time), but the philosophy is that those who are guilty dont deserve to get any grace time. The judgement procedure is on a local level, and from what I hear, its fair. There are mistakes, like any judicial system, but if a mistake is found, then the compensation (in cash) is usually rather large, depending on the case. The reports of slave labor in prison camps are unconfirmed by anyone and are rumors, just like Area 51 in Roswell.

Female infanticide, while I know it exists given the large population, does not take place on a regular basis (or even remotely regular) even in the rural districts. In the rural districts, central Communist Lawmakers in Beijing have no control over what a little official in the middle of nowhere does. Bribe this, bribe that, and there are people with more than 1 child (you ever wonder why the population is growing despite the fact the 1 child policy was enabled in the 70s? Not as fast as it used to, but still pretty fast). Thats also the reason why every Chinese national landmark has turn into a tourist trap :disgust: despite laws saying you cant have commerical/residential within X distance of a monument.

How did the dalai lama defy the government of China? Why has he been in exile for so many years, why cant he go back to Tibet?

 

[dexvx]

Originally posted by: Dhruv

Originally posted by: dexvx
People from Taiwan sway both ways. I know a professor from Marquette University whos a diehard pro-Communist (dont ask). Frankly I dont know wtf the overall feeling about Taiwan is, but I strongly disagree with its formal independance. Unification should be the goal there.

As for the issue of Tibet. Go read any college level history text. Tibet before the Communist takeover was a theocratic feudal society (middle ages/pre-Imperial Japan) and was one of the few places where serfdom (a nice word for slavery) existed in the 1950s. I dont agree with them taking down their religion, but most of the people that fled were the nobility or religious leaders (usually it plays hand in hand). I dont believe the Tibetans as a whole are any different from other people (unarmed, peace loving, hippy BS).

Human rights violation, thats mostly BS. The thing is, as long as you dont actively and openly (and you need to be really active) defy the government or commit mid to severe level crimes, you have more local freedom than a person in America. Voting is usually on a very local level, and you dont get any kind of provincial/national votes. I disagree with the rapidness of the condemned to be executed (I think there should be a lay time), but the philosophy is that those who are guilty dont deserve to get any grace time. The judgement procedure is on a local level, and from what I hear, its fair. There are mistakes, like any judicial system, but if a mistake is found, then the compensation (in cash) is usually rather large, depending on the case. The reports of slave labor in prison camps are unconfirmed by anyone and are rumors, just like Area 51 in Roswell.

Female infanticide, while I know it exists given the large population, does not take place on a regular basis (or even remotely regular) even in the rural districts. In the rural districts, central Communist Lawmakers in Beijing have no control over what a little official in the middle of nowhere does. Bribe this, bribe that, and there are people with more than 1 child (you ever wonder why the population is growing despite the fact the 1 child policy was enabled in the 70s? Not as fast as it used to, but still pretty fast). Thats also the reason why every Chinese national landmark has turn into a tourist trap :disgust: despite laws saying you cant have commerical/residential within X distance of a monument.

How did the dalai lama defy the government of China? Why has he been in exile for so many years, why cant he go back to Tibet?

He cant go back because of political reasons. He is the symbol of the "backward" Tibetan people, you know the one with the feudalism and serfdom. Not to mention everything he stands for is anti-Chinese. He may not speak of it outright, but his supporters speak for him. Frankly I dont care if he goes back or not.

And I think every piece of news is some kind of Propaganda. People discredit Chinese news because its controlled by the government (there are some doubtful reports, yes), but there are also some pro-liberal news that is also heavily biased as well. The way I go about it, and what my teacher taught me, was to get the absolute extreme from both sides and then extrapolate (while checking with known statistical facts in the meantime) a median point. What the extremists dont say is that the Communist government poured in resources to help modernize Tibet, built schools, fixed roads, provided healthcare, etc.

The Tibetan thing, IMO, has been totally overblown in porportion. The kind of oppression that gets reported for the most part isnt true, and few poeple even know about the "original" Tibetan culture (not religion). Another reason why China wont give up Tibet is because of India/Pakistan. It is a strategic military spot, probably equivalent to the Sudetenland for the Czechs in WWII. Because India is a nuclear power, I can imagine there are key military/nuclear facilities in Tibet.

 

[gopunk]

Gopunk, i'm not saying that the world doesn' trecognize it as a province of china. I'm saying that the people of Tibet are not being treated well and want to the right to self determination and that is not being given to them. Im' saying their culture and history is distinct from the major ethnic group of China's and so should be allowed to live in freedom, not under the rule of communism by a nation that they feel is totally foreign to them.

then how do you explain this? "Tibetans ARE NOT CHINESE. Province, by whose standards?"

i agree with the other stuff you said.... i don't really think tibet is benefiting china all that much anyways. seems like a waste of resources.

 

[HamSupLo]

I'm not going to split hairs with you, Dhruv, but I can say that the transition from the British government to India's demcratic government resulted in civil war and millions of death. You yourself said that the absence of the unifiying presence of the British resulted in the chaos that ensued. What do you think will happen in the absence of the Communist government in CHina?

Now you saying GRADUAL transformation with current CHinese government in place. ok. that's fine. The introduction of democratic principles into the Chinese political system and society is a good thing. I personally hope that happens and will work. But will China function with a fully democractic system in place? I've been saying no because of the ethnic and regional differences I had mentioned early. It just will not work. I'll be idealistic and say it might work, I hope it works, BUT given China's history, democractic China is far from a near distant reality.

And i don't need a history lesson. I was hoping that you knew that when India broke up, there was a Pakistan and a East Pakistan. East Pakistan = Bangaladesh in 1970 as you said. Same thing.

 

[dexvx]

Ok, Chinese Civil War. Nationalists vs Communists in 1949 (dont talk about the bad acts Communists did later).

Nationalists are corrupt, facist right-wing military dictatorship that constantly abuse their power, kill people remotely suspected of being Communist, took farms + crops without compensation and left a scorched earth policy. American military advisers note that they are very corrupt and food/medical supplies meant for the people as a whole wind up in the hands of the few. They also note that the $2 billion in aide during WWII against the Japanese are still for the most part in tact.

Communists start out from farmers. They are left-wing obviously, they ask farmers for crops and help them plant new ones for the next season. During WWII, Communist guerillas fought the Japanese wherever feasible. Thousands of recruits come pouring in with little combat experience but lots of heart.

Which would you go for? If you think I'm over-exaggerating, go ahead and read the books that American military advisers wrote pre-1949 about the Nationalists.

 

[Dhruv]

Originally posted by: jooksing
I'm not going to split hairs with you, Dhruv, but I can say that the transition from the British government to India's demcratic government resulted in civil war and millions of death. You yourself said that the absence of the unifiying presence of the British resulted in the chaos that ensued. What do you think will happen in the absence of the Communist government in CHina?

Now you saying GRADUAL transformation with current CHinese government in place. ok. that's fine. The introduction of democratic principles into the Chinese political system and society is a good thing. I personally hope that happens and will work. But will China function with a fully democractic system in place? I've been saying no because of the ethnic and regional differences I had mentioned early. It just will not work. I'll be idealistic and say it might work, I hope it works, BUT given China's history, democractic China is far from a near distant reality.

And i don't need a history lesson. I was hoping that you knew that when India broke up, there was a Pakistan and a East Pakistan. East Pakistan = Bangaladesh in 1970 as you said. Same thing.

Again, the riots did not occur because the government was democratic, or whether it was communist. That didn't matter. The bloodshed occured because there WAS no effective government in place. I know because my family is from the hardest hit area during the riots, Punjab. Its one thing if a government changes from communist to democratic (and yes, i mean gradually, not overnight... look at Russia...) but its a completely different thing if you have people chasing you with swords and trying to kick you out of your house... and there is no army, or police around because what little army or police India had became ineffective when the British left in the few months after independence. The people were completely left to their own devices. The map was drawn, outlining India and Pakistan, but that was a ver vague line when taken from the on ground perspective. What side is India, what side is Pakistan. If my house is in the middle then what? Basically, it was a time where one had to fight to live, and there was NO one around to direct the traffic. How would they? it was only a few months old (indian govt.).

This whole partition example is actually really bad because its very different from the China situation. once again, china already has an effective govt and army and police in place. I'm not saying things will go without a hitch, but i am saying that there won't be civil war... certainly not to the extent that India had experienced.

Yes, we all know Pakistan had two parts, disconnected parts, e. and w. pakistan. But Bangladesh and E. Pakistan were not the same thing in 1948 mind you, it was Pakistan at the time, the people of Bangladesh felt it was their country, they felt Pakistani. After experiencing discrimination and oppression by the Punjabi dominated Pakistani government, thats when they felt (with support of India), that they should be free. But until then, the Bangladeshis were Pakistani by choice, unlike the Tibetans are today.

 

[Dhruv]

Originally posted by: jooksing
You yourself said that the absence of the unifiying presence of the British resulted in the chaos that ensued.

I said the absence of a unifying presence led to the riots. China is not lacking this, like India had. Anyways, nice conversations, i got get some sleep. later guys.