Why are (many) FPS Fans bored to tears by RTS/RPG Games?

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Cawchy87

Originally posted by: Cawchy87
I hated kotor. It felt like I was over someone's shoulder telling them "shoot that guy" "use that gun." It didn't even feel like I was playing, and I was bored out of my mind.

Do you like ANY RPGs?

How far did you get? finish kotor?

Hell no. After "shooting" the first two guys I wanted to quit. But my friend said it was so good so I gave it another hour. And then a half hour the next day. After that I promptly uninstalled the game.

I liked conker's bad fur day for N64 if that counts as an RPG. But past that... nope.[/quote]

Yeah it's pretty hard for a FPS player to "just stand there" and take shot after shot . . . .

i plan to give it a week . . . . i am actually reading the manual :shocked:
:roll:

 

[apoppin]

March 12 UPdate . . . . i really haven't had "that" much time to play . . . but I "get" it now . . . . forming my "party" and am OK with the computer managing my "fights".

i have steadfastly refused to read a walkthrough - yet - i am just "exploring" (strange, i picked a "scout")

It's a really good game and i probably will complete it . . . . who knows?. . . . i may even buy KotOR 2
:roll:



ANYway, i seriously doubt that RPGS will EVER supplant FPS as my favourite type of game . . . . but at least i am no longer "bored to tears" by 'em. . . . . and i DO look forward to the hybreds . . . .
:thumbsup:

thanks for the encouragement

oh, System Shock 2 is on the way

 

[Fern]

am OK with the computer managing my "fights".

I didn't do it that way.IIRC, there was a way to "pause" the action so I could change the choice of attack in the que. I found I was much MORE successful this way, istead of just letting the computer issue default attack manuevers. It was pretty frenetic for me as well.

Oh, and where there were multiple "bad guys" I would not only switch which "attack", but the target. That way I could really do more to protect and assist teammates (or myself, when manipulating other memebers of the party.)

Overall, my frenetic micro-managing was more satisfying and successful. Seemed more like a FPS, but w/o aiming or jumping. Otherwise, I felt like a observer, not really involved.

Don't know where your at in the game, but I felt the story was interesting and well developed as you get deeper in the game. Seems to me there were some good "puzzles" too. None of those frustarting jumping things (dammit, in PK I just can't get over all the pits in the Collesium level. Everytime I've had to get my 8yr old son to get me past that crap LOL).

Oh, I had the "hots" for Bastilla too. I got a kick outta of a bug, where she would appear in her underwear o/s of the "sand people" compound.

Fern

 

[thecrecarc]

savage? rpg/rts/fps


http://home.ripway.com/2005-1/248022/Savage.html

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Fern

am OK with the computer managing my "fights".

I didn't do it that way.IIRC, there was a way to "pause" the action so I could change the choice of attack in the que. I found I was much MORE successful this way, istead of just letting the computer issue default attack manuevers. It was pretty frenetic for me as well.

Oh, and where there were multiple "bad guys" I would not only switch which "attack", but the target. That way I could really do more to protect and assist teammates (or myself, when manipulating other memebers of the party.)

Overall, my frenetic micro-managing was more satisfying and successful. Seemed more like a FPS, but w/o aiming or jumping. Otherwise, I felt like a observer, not really involved.

Don't know where your at in the game, but I felt the story was interesting and well developed as you get deeper in the game. Seems to me there were some good "puzzles" too. None of those frustarting jumping things (dammit, in PK I just can't get over all the pits in the Collesium level. Everytime I've had to get my 8yr old son to get me past that crap LOL).

Oh, I had the "hots" for Bastilla too. I got a kick outta of a bug, where she would appear in her underwear o/s of the "sand people" compound.

Fern

i don't mean i don't "load the dice" in my favor . . . . i hit "pause" (and "save" too) just before a fight . . . it means that i have accepted the RPG "style" of the computer managing the actual fight - so UNlike a FPS - where you now "observe" the "results" of your micromanagement (hopefully in the defeat of your enemies) . . . .

i am not that far along but i can see a quality story forming . . . .
. . . . and after spending so damn MUCH TIME reading the f'ing manual, playing the boring tutorials and developing my character and party . . . . i DO want to see how it unfolds
:roll:

Thanks for the tip on Savage, thecrecarc, but online games are OUT for me as my dialup sux.

 

[BFG10K]

i start to "fight" and realize i can only stand there, 'click' on the enemy and WAIT . . . . "moving" cancels the fight action

That's one the reasons I never bothered with the game - after playing through JK2 and JA multiple times each I doubt I could stand Kotor's point-and-click combat.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

i start to "fight" and realize i can only stand there, 'click' on the enemy and WAIT . . . . "moving" cancels the fight action

That's one the reasons I never bothered with the game - after playing through JK2 and JA multiple times each I doubt I could stand Kotor's point-and-click combat.

Seriously . . . if it were not for the encouragement i got from the rpg'ers - and that KotOR is a great game - it would have gone atop of my dusty pile of unfinished games: Vampire:tMR/Might and Magic VI:tMoH/NOX/Sanity/AoD:TR (i know, it's an FPS, but can anyone get the controls to work?)/and Sacrifice (maybe more of a RTS-FPS hybred) . . . .

i still don't like the point and click combat, the steep learning/memorizing curve, the SLOW start . . . . and if another great FPS comes my way, i may set KotOR aside, but at least the game is enjoyable . . . something i could never say before about any rpg.

 

[meltdown75]

great thread guys...

i just finished KOTOR 1 tonight - amazing game. anyone who hasn't played it, do so!! i'll buy KOTOR 2 when it comes down in price.

as a result I haven't played HL2: DM in a while or any other FPS, so it's back to those

 

[EmperorRob]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Seriously . . . if it were not for the encouragement i got from the rpg'ers - and that KotOR is a great game - it would have gone atop of my dusty pile of unfinished games: Vampire:tMR/Might and Magic VI:tMoH/NOX/Sanity/AoD:TR (i know, it's an FPS, but can anyone get the controls to work?)/and Sacrifice (maybe more of a RTS-FPS hybred) . . . .

Oh man I'm so sorry you played and/or bought Tomb Raider:AoD. That game was so bad.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: EmperorRob

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Seriously . . . if it were not for the encouragement i got from the rpg'ers - and that KotOR is a great game - it would have gone atop of my dusty pile of unfinished games: Vampire:tMR/Might and Magic VI:tMoH/NOX/Sanity/AoD:TR (i know, it's an FPS, but can anyone get the controls to work?)/and Sacrifice (maybe more of a RTS-FPS hybred) . . . .

Oh man I'm so sorry you played and/or bought Tomb Raider:AoD. That game was so bad.

that was me . . . . and i didn't "buy" it
:shocked:
(i knew better)

it came bundled with my Audigy2 . . . . looks "pretty" . . . i couldn't play it - the controls are awful.:disgust:
:roll:
. . . . the other bundled game is TC's Rainbow 6 RS . . . . if i get tired of playing KotOR . . . .

 

[apoppin]

OK, FINAL Update
(i promise)
:roll:

ANyway, 12 hours (or so) into KoTOR, and i finally like it . . . i WILL finish this game.

it took FOREVER for me to decide
:shocked:

anyway, i am leaving Dantoone - and for once - am actually enjoying this game. i guess once you get the "hang" of RPG, they ALL follow the same "pattern" . . . . much like FPS games are all "similar" (more-or-less).

:thumbsup:



:shocked:

:roll:

:laugh:

[edit: it took over a week . . . i had to "force" myself to play it . . . . now i can't break away

 

[DaveSimmons]

Thanks for all the updates.

I've been the same way about Real Time Strategy games -- millions of people love AOE, Warcraft and Starcraft, but I just can't stand the idea of frantically clicking away instead of having time to plan your moves like in Turn Based Strategy games.

Maybe I'll follow your example and give a RTS a real chance to grow on me

 

[dighn]

glad to hear you are enjoying KOTOR it's really a great genre if you are able to enjoy it.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dighn
glad to hear you are enjoying KOTOR it's really a great genre if you are able to enjoy it.

IF you Stick with it, you WILL (probably) ENJOY it. . .. the 'sticking with it' is the problem for (impatient) FPSers (like me).

Yes, KotOR is a great game. . . and many thanks to those who kept encouraging me to play it . . . now that i have an idea of the nitty gritty of RPG, that entire type of game is now open to me. . . . certainly KotOR II (when the bugs get fixed).

Again, Mahalo!

BTW, SS2 arrived in the mail today:thumbsup: and won't install (easily) on Win2K :frown:. . . . however, i'm in no hurry, i have another game to finish 1st.

 

[apoppin]

i thought some of you'd like an "update" . . . . 04/01/04 . . . . i finished KotOR (!!!) late last night in a single 10 hour "setting" . . . . . about 45 hours total [LS only] for me - a "hardcore" fps addict and the 'rawest' of RPG n00bs] . . .

First of all, a FPS gives pretty close to "immediate satisfaction" . . . compared to RPGs, the learning curve is simple . . . i'd say a complete novice to PC games would take maybe 5-10 times more time and effort to fully "customize" your RPG character (& party) and to get "fully into" the game compared to a FPS.

HOWEVER, the time and effort "invested" is WORTH it (imo) . . . the STORY is SO MUCH more full, rich and detailed (usually) in a RPG 'cause there is so much more time the game's creator has to develop the plot.

KotOR is amazing game - the story is unbelievably entertaining; gfx good too - that really pulls you into the SW universe . . . . some of the quests and side quests (i did most of the LS ones and a few of teh DS ones) are pretty entertaining and a few will have you ROTFLOL (that battle droid and the old jedi are a "hoot"). Plus the incredible "freedom" to complete quests in (almost) ANY ORDER and 'changing' to adapt to your choices.

Turn-based fighting is a decent alternative to 'real time FPS' . . . believe-it-or-not, i finally got to completely enjoy the fighting in KoTOR (especially when i fugured how to "load the dice" in my favour).

ANYWAY, when you have finally explored (and like) your first RPG, the entire RPG universe opens to you . . . the RPSs are"similar" much the same way that FPSes are similar . . . i fully expect to play KotOR II (when it gets sucessfully patched and probably bargain bin) and probably Vampire, Bloodlines also. . . . . i know it won't take ten hours for me to figure out what to do (this time).

Thanks for your encouragement, RPGers . . . otherwise i would NOT have finished KotOR.

. . . and yes, i "get" RPGs AND will buy and play them in the future with EQUAL joy as my "precious" fps games
:shocked:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

edit:

OK, on to System Shock 2.

 

[laketrout]

You summe dit up well apoppin. It is the instant satissfaction. In FPSes, you knwo when you are making progress in the right direction whereas RPGs have all these side-quests and extra things that ultimately can be fun or just a waste of time. That is what kill sme. I don't know if what I am doing is actually improtant or will pay off in the end.

The other thing is the time. Liek you said 45 hours to complete the game. I like the 15-20 hour window. I see Kotor was the suggested one, how is Kotor II? Anyone finish that yet, I am willing to try but am drawn more to Kotor II than I? Is it crucial to start with the first?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: laketrout
You summe dit up well apoppin. It is the instant satissfaction. In FPSes, you knwo when you are making progress in the right direction whereas RPGs have all these side-quests and extra things that ultimately can be fun or just a waste of time. That is what kill sme. I don't know if what I am doing is actually improtant or will pay off in the end.

The other thing is the time. Liek you said 45 hours to complete the game. I like the 15-20 hour window. I see Kotor was the suggested one, how is Kotor II? Anyone finish that yet, I am willing to try but am drawn more to Kotor II than I? Is it crucial to start with the first?

With KotOR, even the boring side quests were pretty good . . . . they generally added something to the story and gave you some details of your party members . . . . if you play ALL the sidequests you will get some incredible detail and background that you will miss if you just rush thru to get the ending.

i'd say what chacteristic that sets a FPSer apart from a RPGer is patience. . . . someone mentioned this earlier . . . RPG is more like "watching a book" . . . the FPS is more like a "movie".

i'd say 30-35 hours is the norm for a "complete" LS or DS playthru . . . i took an extra ten or so hours to "figure it out" . . . i actually had to learn how a RPG "works" since i NEVER invested more than an hour or two before.

i do NOT intend to play thru KotOR on DS . . .. just enough to see the "ending" (i did a bunch of DS quests and see the "difference" . . . just don't care to be the "bully" [the game "gets" to you, believe it or not]. :shocked:


WHO CARES how long it takes to finish a RPG - IF it is good. KotOR could be 100 hours long - if it continued at the same level of storytelling . . . you just get more "value" for your money.

AFAIK, the same problems that plagued (the unpatched) KotOR also are in the sequel . . . it is BUGGY . . . . as soon as the patch it out, it should be very good . . . from the reviews, it is the EQUAL of KotOR (1) and just as LONG . . .

frankly, i am looking forward to KotOR II (patched and bargain bin):thumbsup:

edit: i'd definitely suggest KotOR (1) over II . . . first of all it is $20 compared to $50 . . . KotOR is completely stable while II is "buggy" and the GFX are IDENTICAlly "good" . . . FINALLY, once you play KotOR (1), you can just "pickup" KotOR II and star playing withOUT any "learning curve".

 

[deadseasquirrel]

Originally posted by: apoppin
i do NOT intend to play thru KotOR on DS . . .. just enough to see the "ending" (i did a bunch of DS quests and see the "difference" . . . just don't care to be the "bully" [the game "gets" to you, believe it or not]. :shocked:

You know, I hadn't planned on it either. But....

SPOILER ALERT

I decided to save before fighting Bastila that first time and so I reloaded it and decided to join her. I was actually shocked by what happened next when I got back down to the ship with my companions. Forcing the wookie kill that girl was just so... unexpected. It actually made it difficult to finish playing evil after that. It was just too evil. But I continued on to see the DS ending.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: deadseasquirrel

Originally posted by: apoppin
i do NOT intend to play thru KotOR on DS . . .. just enough to see the "ending" (i did a bunch of DS quests and see the "difference" . . . just don't care to be the "bully" [the game "gets" to you, believe it or not]. :shocked:

You know, I hadn't planned on it either. But....

SPOILER ALERT

I decided to save before fighting Bastila that first time and so I reloaded it and decided to join her. I was actually shocked by what happened next when I got back down to the ship with my companions. Forcing the wookie kill that girl was just so... unexpected. It actually made it difficult to finish playing evil after that. It was just too evil. But I continued on to see the DS ending.

*******SPOILER ALERT**********

i didn't have that problem . . . . the "choices" i made earlier, left the Wookie on his home world (co-ruling with his formerly estranged dad) . . . .

i killed the girl myself
(then poisoned the little 'pets' on the Ebon Hawk after breaking a few necks)
:shocked:


:evil:


:roll:

continued **SPOILER ALERT***

This game is SO GOOD, i was actually yelling out "choices" before the characters got them . . . . e.g. when Bastilla offered to help me fight Malak but was worried she might revert back to the DS wqhen she sees him . . . i shouted at the screen, "Just stay HERE and do your Battle Meditation FOR the Republic, Biatch!" and then it popped up as a 'choice' (minus the 'b!tch' comment).
:roll:

just like a 'movie'

**********Finish Spoiler**************8

what i meant, is i am NOT going to replay the ENTIRE game as DS . . . just the ending after the "big choice"

(mini-spoiler:

it's harder playing the ending as DS when you only have 2 Jedi Masters instead of 3. . . . piece of cake on LS.

 

[apoppin]

i finished playing the DS ending . . . . pretty intense but not as good as the LS ending (imo)

As to whether KotOR 2 is inmproved over KotOr 1's GFX, it is the SAME "Odyssey" engine (with really nice gfx . . . . kinda like a 'maxed-out' Quake III but with better shaders . . . the water effects are quite nice) . . . i guess we're gonna have to wait for KotOR III to see the next gen "Eclipse" Engine.

From Aug/'04

BioWare trademarks new game engine

. . . Knights of the Old Republic and its sequel use the Odyssey engine. . .

For its part, BioWare is being coy as to what the Eclipse engine is--for now. "BioWare is always hard at work on great future gaming technology, and with the BioWare Eclipse engine we're building something which we believe will really make people in the industry sit up and take notice," a company rep told GameSpot. "We have a full team of dedicated people working hard to build our next generation of technology," he continued. "We'll release more information on the BioWare Eclipse engine at a later date."

KotOR is HIGHly recommended! . . . Well worth the time it takes to learn RPG - especially if you like being IMMERSED in th SWs universe.

. . . And FPS players are bored to tears by RTS/RPG Games because they LACK PATIENCE.
(relatively speaking)
:roll:

 

[Zogglet]

I don't have a problem with RTS's, but I can't stand many RPG's. The problem is because your abilities are based on how strong your character is, not how strong you are. In an FPS, it's pure skill.

I agree. And turn-based battles make me nauseous.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Zogglet

I don't have a problem with RTS's, but I can't stand many RPG's. The problem is because your abilities are based on how strong your character is, not how strong you are. In an FPS, it's pure skill.

I agree. And turn-based battles make me nauseous.

before i played KotOR, i would have agreed with you . . . in fact, as i progress through this thread (in "real-time" as i experienced KotOR), i reported on my hate for it, then acceptance and finally UNDERSTANDING "why".

i'd have to say turn-based battles have their place in RPGs like KotOR. . . . after all, it is an experience grown out of Dungeons and Dragons. After you play it - for AWHILE - it begins to make perfect sense. RPGs just "unfold" much differently than FPSes.

In a FPS "shooter" - eg Serious Sam/PK/Doom - you initially get weapons that are barely sufficient to survive and as you progress the enemies AND the weapons get progressively more powerful . . . the "balance" between enemies and weapons often makes or breaks a game (not to mention your "skill" as you master the controls so that they are 2nd nature)

in a RPG, you and your party start off very weak and then the skills you acquire are divided up to build the kind of party/characters you want . . . . as you go into battle you set each member of your party - considering their battle strengths and weakenesses - to fight where and who they best can and the COMPUTER determines the outcome using MANY factors - very important of which is LUCK. . . . . an element missing from FPS and found in "real life". . . . the only FPS (hybred i can think of) that has similar play - but in "real time" was Sacrifice where you issue orders to your "troops" just as battle begins . . .

IF you are a HARDCORE fpser - as i am - you have to make a VERY determined EFFORT to learn RPG . . . once you have, a whole new gameing universe opens to you that is JUST AS GOOD (and logical) as FPS games . . . but you better pick a GOOD RPG game to start.

in RPG, the STORY is paramount. In FPS it's the ACTION.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Zogglet

I don't have a problem with RTS's, but I can't stand many RPG's. The problem is because your abilities are based on how strong your character is, not how strong you are. In an FPS, it's pure skill.

I agree. And turn-based battles make me nauseous.

It's a totally different set of "pure skill"...

FPS's require quick reactions, wheras RPG's require making the right choices and pursuing the best paths. Your character is as strong as the choices you make. Two people can be playing the exact same race and class for the exact same hours and still have very different character strenghths/traits.

They are very different genres... And both most definitely have their place in my gaming world.

 

[EpsiIon]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Zogglet

I don't have a problem with RTS's, but I can't stand many RPG's. The problem is because your abilities are based on how strong your character is, not how strong you are. In an FPS, it's pure skill.

I agree. And turn-based battles make me nauseous.

It's a totally different set of "pure skill"...

FPS's require quick reactions, wheras RPG's require making the right choices and pursuing the best paths. Your character is as strong as the choices you make. Two people can be playing the exact same race and class for the exact same hours and still have very different character strenghths/traits.

They are very different genres... And both most definitely have their place in my gaming world.

The problem with a lot of RPGs is that the best path is often completely obvious. At that point, it's not about your skill in anything other than seeing the obvious.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: EpsiIon

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Zogglet

I don't have a problem with RTS's, but I can't stand many RPG's. The problem is because your abilities are based on how strong your character is, not how strong you are. In an FPS, it's pure skill.

I agree. And turn-based battles make me nauseous.

It's a totally different set of "pure skill"...

FPS's require quick reactions, wheras RPG's require making the right choices and pursuing the best paths. Your character is as strong as the choices you make. Two people can be playing the exact same race and class for the exact same hours and still have very different character strenghths/traits.

They are very different genres... And both most definitely have their place in my gaming world.

The problem with a lot of RPGs is that the best path is often completely obvious. At that point, it's not about your skill in anything other than seeing the obvious.

You must be confused . . . . most FPS are "linear" and "obvious" . . . let's take Doom III as an example . . . NO ONE asked for help (well almost no one) since it was so linear and damn obvious . . . . if you get stuck, look up or down, behind something or blow something up.
:roll:

With a RPG, you are forced to THINK . . . . there are (usually) so many DIFFERENT ways to tackle an objective . . . . in this particular case, FPS can't hold a candle to RPG's complexity.
:shocked:

edit: i believe the ONLY people putting RPG's "down" have never completed a good one.*
:shocked:
:roll:

:thumbsdown:

*heck, i was "there" a month ago . . . at that time, reading Wingznut's comments were like 'WTH is he babbling about?!?' . . . now i know.