Discussion Which was worse, the riots in July or the Riot in January?

[Starbuck1975]

David Dorn was killed in St. Louis in a pawn shop robbery by scumbags. Are you saying the local mayor of St. Louis abdicated her responsibilities and is responsible for his death? The first couple pages of hits on her in regards to BLM is her doxxing the names of peaceful protestors, not about being too gentle on criminals.

The similarity between July and January is that people willingly and enthusiastically engaged in brazen criminal behavior, and they did so because they did not expect to be held accountable. That is evident from how those who are arrested react when it happens, but to me, a civil society shouldn’t reach the point where anarchy becomes a reasonable solution. The blame for that doesn’t fall on any one person, but it does represent an abdication of authority.

 

[Grey_Beard]

The similarity between July and January is that people willingly and enthusiastically engaged in brazen criminal behavior, and they did so because they did not expect to be held accountable. That is evident from how those who are arrested react when it happens, but to me, a civil society shouldn’t reach the point where anarchy becomes a reasonable solution. The blame for that doesn’t fall on any one person, but it does represent an abdication of authority.

Protesting and insurrection are different. You can clam they are not, but our Constitution preserves the right to protest to regress grievances. It also calls out insurrection. So there is a difference. High jacking the protests to make systemic change to compare it to a concerted, planned and violent assault on the Capitol is a fool’s errand. I am much more apoplectic about the more recent events than in January. The more time that goes by and the more we find out, the worse this situation gets.

 

[JujuFish]

Protesting and insurrection are different. You can clam they are not, but our Constitution preserves the right to protest to regress grievances. It also calls out insurrection. So there is a difference. High jacking the protests to make systemic change to compare it to a concerted, planned and violent assault on the Capitol is a fool’s errand. I am much more apoplectic about the more recent events than in January. The more time that goes by and the more we find out, the worse this situation gets.

Protesting is protected; rioting is not.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Protesting is protected; rioting is not.

And once rioting has started, it ceases to being a protest.

You can't have 5-10 people being violent and throwing rocks and bottles of piss - and allowing them to run into the shadows of the other folks. You are now actively supporting and not turning in the individual that just committed a crime. Thus, it's no longer a protest on anyone's part.

 

[MrSquished]

And once rioting has started, it ceases to being a protest.

You can't have 5-10 people being violent and throwing rocks and bottles of piss - and allowing them to run into the shadows of the other folks. You are now actively supporting and not turning in the individual that just committed a crime. Thus, it's no longer a protest on anyone's part.

That logic simply does not work. If I march in a protest and some asshole gets violent if I don't play cop, put myself in danger, and do a citizen's arrest, I am now actively supporting them? That's idiotic.

Do you think that because there are many examples of cops doing bad shit then all cops are now complicit? You don't, and that situation is in fact far more damning to cops. Often times cops know exactly who is doing the bad shit - name, precinct, etc... and have an actual system in place to report them, but do not do so. And there actual job description is to, well, uphold the law.That is far worse than some peaceful protestor not trying to take down an unidentifiable masked and potentially armed provocateur.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

That logic simply does not work. If I march in a protest and some asshole gets violent if I don't play cop, put myself in danger, and do a citizen's arrest, I am now actively supporting them? That's idiotic.

It actually does make complete and total sense. I'm sorry you're having trouble with this simple logic grasp. If you protect someone that is causing violent and illegal behavior, you are contributing to the problem. End of story.

Do you think that because there are many examples of cops doing bad shit then all cops are now complicit? You don't, and that situation is in fact far more damning to cops. Often times cops know exactly who is doing the bad shit - name, precinct, etc... and have an actual system in place to report them, but do not do so. And there actual job description is to, well, uphold the law.That is far worse than some peaceful protestor not trying to take down an unidentifiable masked and potentially armed provocateur.

So are you telling me that the other cops at the George Floyd incident didn't deserve to be charged? They were just standing there.

 

[MrSquished]

It actually does make complete and total sense. I'm sorry you're having trouble with this simple logic grasp. If you protect someone that is causing violent and illegal behavior, you are contributing to the problem. End of story.

Now peaceful protestors are protecting violent opportunists? That's rich. If there are 12,000 people marching and 50 provocateurs maybe knock over some garbage cans, smash some windows or whatever, now 11,950 people are guilty of protecting them?

That's nuts.

So are you telling me that the other cops at the George Floyd incident didn't deserve to be charged? They were just standing there.

A cop's job is to actively uphold the law - it is our job to respect the law. There is a difference. In general when you see a dangerous situation almost all the time the rule of thumb is to not get involved, let the authorities handle it. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule, I mean if you can safely defuse a situation then do it, and it does happen, but I don't expect a couple of 21 year old college students holding a peace sign to go tackle a bunch of thugs hijacking their peaceful moment potentially turning it into an even worse situation, nor do I expect now the 10,000 people marching behind them that are seeing none of this to be held responsible for it either, as you are suggesting.

As far as cops go, there is a code of silence in their brotherhood to basically never rat on a cop. There is a lot of bad behaviour going on by cops that simply never gets reported due to this. With your logic, every cop in America is a bad cop. That's pretty anti-cop of you.

 

[shortylickens]

Plenty of Black people were out there trashing businesses and starting fires. Don't try and rewrite history.

Link to pics and vids of black Americans starting fires?
I'm not saying I dont believe you, I'm saying I'd like to see some pics and vids.
I think if you actually go searching you will find all evidence showing fires being lit are mostly from white people, and there's no guarantee they were actually part of the BLM movement, rather independent instigators.
BUT, I'd being willing to watch vids of black folks actually starting fires if you can find them. Or pics.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Link to pics and vids of black Americans starting fires?
I'm not saying I dont believe you, I'm saying I'd like to see some pics and vids.
I think if you actually go searching you will find all evidence showing fires being lit are mostly from white people, and there's no guarantee they were actually part of the BLM movement, rather independent instigators.
BUT, I'd being willing to watch vids of black folks actually starting fires if you can find them. Or pics.

Just the first that comes to mind - I'm sure there are plenty of others...

Kenosha car dealership goes up in flames during riots

Editor's correction: When this article was prepared, the BLM promotion appeared to be on a sign belonging to the car dealership.

www.lawofficer.com

 

[Starbuck1975]

Protesting and insurrection are different. You can clam they are not, but our Constitution preserves the right to protest to regress grievances. It also calls out insurrection. So there is a difference. High jacking the protests to make systemic change to compare it to a concerted, planned and violent assault on the Capitol is a fool’s errand. I am much more apoplectic about the more recent events than in January. The more time that goes by and the more we find out, the worse this situation gets.

Laying siege to a police station, declaring an autonomous zone, assaulting members of the press and intimidating local business owners and residents are not legitimate forms of peaceful protest. It is extraordinarily easy for peaceful protestors to condemn and distance themselves from such behaviors if they so chose. It is necessary for local government to assert zero tolerance towards such activities, which becomes admittedly difficult when the police are the target of the protests...it had a moth to the flame effect.

 

[Grey_Beard]

Laying siege to a police station, declaring an autonomous zone, assaulting members of the press and intimidating local business owners and residents are not legitimate forms of peaceful protest. It is extraordinarily easy for peaceful protestors to condemn and distance themselves from such behaviors if they so chose. It is necessary for local government to assert zero tolerance towards such activities, which becomes admittedly difficult when the police are the target of the protests...it had a moth to the flame effect.

So, the events in one location then makes all of the events tainted by it. These are not mutually exclusive events. They can both happen and one can be bad while the other is good. I do like how you cherry pick items to support your point. How many police stations were stormed? How many autonomous zones were set up? How many protests were there? If the items you mentioned were less than .01%, are they revenant? Heck the infection rate of the Hoax-a-virus is higher than that and many think it’s nothing to be worried about. Show your links to “...assaulting members of the press and intimidating local business owners...”

 

[Starbuck1975]

So, the events in one location then makes all of the events tainted by it. These are not mutually exclusive events. They can both happen and one can be bad while the other is good. I do like how you cherry pick items to support your point. How many police stations were stormed? How many autonomous zones were set up? How many protests were there? If the items you mentioned were less than .01%, are they revenant? Heck the infection rate of the Hoax-a-virus is higher than that and many think it’s nothing to be worried about. Show your links to “...assaulting members of the press and intimidating local business owners...”

First, thank you for engaging honestly, this has been a civil discussion, one we could not have in P&N.

I didn’t cherry pick, I offered an example that is impossible to refute. You are correct, only two cities saw autonomous zones form, but NYC, San Francisco, Minneapolis, Chicago, Boston, St. Louis, Kenosha, etc. all experienced arson, rioting and looting. The mayors of some of those cities required law enforcement to protect their residences when the mob started shifting its gaze their way. If Trump wasn’t such a bumbling idiot, he could have easily turned the summer unrest into a decisive victory.

The Press Freedom Tracker documents incidents of attacks on the press, over half attributed to law enforcement, but the site also documents incidents of protestors (disclaimer, not BLM) assaulting journalists for filming them, and no I am not counting Andy Ngo, who deliberately inserts himself into situations, although that still doesn’t justify assaulting him.

As for businesses, the plywood that has gone up in cities across the country is the only evidence you need. A simply Google search of “businesses intimidated protests” yields numerous hits...whether it was the small businesses of Madison, WI or Minneapolis or Georgtown, a common trend emerges, especially directed at food establishments. Interestingly enough, you tend to find these stories published on the sites of smaller, local news affiliates.

 

[zinfamous]

And once rioting has started, it ceases to being a protest.

You can't have 5-10 people being violent and throwing rocks and bottles of piss - and allowing them to run into the shadows of the other folks. You are now actively supporting and not turning in the individual that just committed a crime. Thus, it's no longer a protest on anyone's part.

I guess you missed all of the videos of BLM protestors restraining violent rioters and turning them over to the police when they tried to start shit from within their ranks?

They were, almost to a person, Trump supporting fascists that were creating these problems all summer. Not actual BLM supporters and protesters. You could peruse the JoD data about the arrests to confirm what is known, but you probably won't.

 

[Grey_Beard]

First, thank you for engaging honestly, this has been a civil discussion, one we could not have in P&N.

I didn’t cherry pick, I offered an example that is impossible to refute. You are correct, only two cities saw autonomous zones form, but NYC, San Francisco, Minneapolis, Chicago, Boston, St. Louis, Kenosha, etc. all experienced arson, rioting and looting. The mayors of some of those cities required law enforcement to protect their residences when the mob started shifting its gaze their way. If Trump wasn’t such a bumbling idiot, he could have easily turned the summer unrest into a decisive victory.

The Press Freedom Tracker documents incidents of attacks on the press, over half attributed to law enforcement, but the site also documents incidents of protestors (disclaimer, not BLM) assaulting journalists for filming them, and no I am not counting Andy Ngo, who deliberately inserts himself into situations, although that still doesn’t justify assaulting him.

As for businesses, the plywood that has gone up in cities across the country is the only evidence you need. A simply Google search of “businesses intimidated protests” yields numerous hits...whether it was the small businesses of Madison, WI or Minneapolis or Georgtown, a common trend emerges, especially directed at food establishments. Interestingly enough, you tend to find these stories published on the sites of smaller, local news affiliates.

You are changing the goal posts. Now instead of “autonomous zones,” it’s rioting and looting. The overwhelming percentage of participants were peaceful. To say that they are diminished by the very small number of people who did what you mentioned above is disrespectful to those who were trying to participate in way that was lawful and constitutionally protected. Although you are correct in bringing these up, it does not make your argument stand on more solid ground.

There were many on “the right” who continued that message. This contributed to the reduction of the Democrat’s House majority and it did not allow them to get a true majority in the Senate, as a 50/50 split with a VP tie breaker is a tenuous “majority” at best. tRump could have capitalized but he cannot resist his oppressive tendencies, but this is not a thread to discuss that.

The press incidents are part of the role. When people ride on motorcycles to capture pictures of a member of the Royal Family which contributes to her death, they cannot claim a white helmet. Yes “The Paparazzi” is not what we are covering, but there are links to this behavior in how all press operate. Many, but not all, perform their role while being antagonist to either the nefarious people who want to destroy property or to the protesters to get the “raw” story. The more dramatic the better. This is part of the role, it is like a fire fighter complaining that they smell like smoke or some fires are just too warm. They are at risk too, but like the press, they are part of and embedded into what is happening. Unfortunately, risks are part of what they do and sometime they contribute in increasing their risks.

Plywood applied by a business owners to protect their property or income is a necessary response of risk mitigation. Why is this any different than putting up a sign to inform the public that the most recently mopped floor is slick and can harm you? If this was the case then why are we not angry at hurricanes, too. They are natural events, do much more damage than the riots or looters and can be compared to the protests to change culture and correct systemic issues given they can both be a force majeure . Instead most people accept them as a risk of living in certain areas, but god forbid if there is a protest and something happens.

In this situation, you are trying to disingenuously argue that these small number of items, events, actions and responses are tarnishing or highjacking the overall peaceful, protected and righteous action of social uprising in way that demonizes them and makes them bad. Your points are misguided.

The events of January 6th are far worse because they hold none of the higher ground the protests do nor are they for systematic righteous change. They are a misguided indignant response based on lies, salacious talk and just outright fantasy to restore a regime that has not been elected nor have they proven any of their allegations even though they were given 60 plus opportunities to put them forward.

 

[Starbuck1975]

You are changing the goal posts. Now instead of “autonomous zones,” it’s rioting and looting. The overwhelming percentage of participants were peaceful. To say that they are diminished by the very small number of people who did what you mentioned above is disrespectful to those who were trying to participate in way that was lawful and constitutionally protected. Although you are correct in bringing these up, it does not make your argument stand on more solid ground.

There were many on “the right” who continued that message. This contributed to the reduction of the Democrat’s House majority and it did not allow them to get a true majority in the Senate, as a 50/50 split with a VP tie breaker is a tenuous “majority” at best. tRump could have capitalized but he cannot resist his oppressive tendencies, but this is not a thread to discuss that.

The press incidents are part of the role. When people ride on motorcycles to capture pictures of a member of the Royal Family which contributes to her death, they cannot claim a white helmet. Yes “The Paparazzi” is not what we are covering, but there are links to this behavior in how all press operate. Many, but not all, perform their role while being antagonist to either the nefarious people who want to destroy property or to the protesters to get the “raw” story. The more dramatic the better. This is part of the role, it is like a fire fighter complaining that they smell like smoke or some fires are just too warm. They are at risk too, but like the press, they are part of and embedded into what is happening. Unfortunately, risks are part of what they do and sometime they contribute in increasing their risks.

Plywood applied by a business owners to protect their property or income is a necessary response of risk mitigation. Why is this any different than putting up a sign to inform the public that the most recently mopped floor is slick and can harm you? If this was the case then why are we not angry at hurricanes, too. They are natural events, do much more damage than the riots or looters and can be compared to the protests to change culture and correct systemic issues given they can both be a force majeure . Instead most people accept them as a risk of living in certain areas, but god forbid if there is a protest and something happens.

In this situation, you are trying to disingenuously argue that these small number of items, events, actions and responses are tarnishing or highjacking the overall peaceful, protected and righteous action of social uprising in way that demonizes them and makes them bad. Your points are misguided.

The events of January 6th are far worse because they hold none of the higher ground the protests do nor are they for systematic righteous change. They are a misguided indignant response based on lies, salacious talk and just outright fantasy to restore a regime that has not been elected nor have they proven any of their allegations even though they were given 60 plus opportunities to put them forward.

My points are not misguided and no goal posts were moved. Given that you are now comparing riots to hurricanes, we will simply have to agree to disagree.