Where do we expect gas prices to be later this month, now that election is over?

[dullard]

This feels like a 20 year old argument.

Remove the term SUV from the conversation and just respect that higher load heights are easier for getting kids and car seats setup. Higher trunk areas work better for awkward cargo like strollers and "weekend stuff". Higher riding heights help with visibility. Roof rails help carry bikes, ski's, and cargo boxes.

These are things that midsize sedans just don't do as well.

I love mini vans. I own a Mach-E. I fucking hated the Nissan Altima I had for a rental last week.

There are limits to a 4 door & trunk car.

You forgot the #1 reason people buy SUVs: the false sense that you are safer in them.

I have a small SUV (Subaru Forester). The trunk space absolutely sucks, every grocery bag just flies all around throwing the food in all directions by the time I get home (and the drive is probably just a mile). I could fit more long lumber in my old Honda Civic than the Forester due to the short length of the Forester. So, your generalized post is not accurate in all cases. That said, there is one benefit that will probably make me get another Forester again: ground clearance for trips to Utah.

 

[fskimospy]

I swear we consumers keep eating the "careful what you wish for" razor filled cupcakes.

"WE WANT A LA CARTE CABLE...CUT THAT CORD!!!!". Netflix, Disney +, Hulu, HBO Max and Amazon Prime later you now have the same monthly cost you were paying and a lot of hidden nickel and diming.

"WE WANT TO CUT OUT CAR DEALERS AND MIDDLE MEN!" A pandemic and supply chain crisis later we have consumer direct ordering from many companies but good luck knowing when you'll actually be able to order or get your vehicle. At this point my Lightning Reservation is out of diapers, walking and starting to talk in full sentences. And I haven't even had an opening to order. It might be 4 years before I go from reservation to order.

I definitely want to cut out car dealers, haha. Well, more specifically I just want to make it so dealerships aren’t legally mandated.

 

[vi edit]

You forgot the #1 reason people buy SUVs: the false sense that you are safer in them.

I have a small SUV (Subaru Forester). The trunk space absolutely sucks, every grocery bag just flies all around throwing the food in all directions by the time I get home (and the drive is probably just a mile). I could fit more long lumber in my old Honda Civic than the Forester due to the short length of the Forester. So, your generalized post is not accurate in all cases. That said, there is one benefit that will probably make me get another Forester again: ground clearance for trips to Utah.

I still think you are going off 20-30 year old biases. People aren't buying a compact SUV today because they are safer. They are buying it because it's easy to get a kid in and out of, has a good feature set, and can put awkward shit from Ikea in the back of it. "Safety" has transitioned to technology and not chassis. People aren't buying SUV's because they are safer. They are buying them because that's what the market wanted and manufacturers responded.

As for the argument about groceries in a Forester. Really? I expected something a little more intellectually engaged from you. A Civic doesn't fix that. A grocery hook, cargo net, reusable grocery bag with a little more structural integrity, hell a $10 collapsible cargo box I keep in my trunk are all reasonable solutions to that "problem". As for lumber, if you really wanted you could haul a sheet of plywood on the top of it. Probably wouldn't want to do that with a Civic. Again it's pretty weak argument that I would expect better from you.

Moving to the PNW really changed my opinion on vehicles. Living in the Midwest I just didn't have the number of outdoor playgrounds available to me. Camping one direction. Beach another. Fireroads and gravel biking. Paddleboarding. Skiing. All just an hour drive any direction. It's an incredibly different use case than IL/IA/NE/Ky. There's gear room, people space, ground clearance and traction I appreciate with an SUV.

 

[hal2kilo]

It looks like a computer mouse.

Better than being the earth shoe of cars like a Subaru.

 

[dullard]

I still think you are going off 20-30 year old biases. People aren't buying a compact SUV today because they are safer. They are buying it because it's easy to get a kid in and out of, has a good feature set, and can put awkward shit from Ikea in the back of it. "Safety" has transitioned to technology and not chassis. People aren't buying SUV's because they are safer. They are buying them because that's what the market wanted and manufacturers responded.

As for the argument about groceries in a Forester. Really? I expected something a little more intellectually engaged from you. A Civic doesn't fix that. A grocery hook, cargo net, reusable grocery bag with a little more structural integrity, hell a $10 collapsible cargo box I keep in my trunk are all reasonable solutions to that "problem". As for lumber, if you really wanted you could haul a sheet of plywood on the top of it. Probably wouldn't want to do that with a Civic. Again it's pretty weak argument that I would expect better from you.

Moving to the PNW really changed my opinion on vehicles. Living in the Midwest I just didn't have the number of outdoor playgrounds available to me. Camping one direction. Beach another. Fireroads and gravel biking. Paddleboarding. Skiing. All just an hour drive any direction. It's an incredibly different use case than IL/IA/NE/Ky. There's gear room, people space, ground clearance and traction I appreciate with an SUV.

So safety being a top criteria is a 20 year old bias? What lets see happened last year?


And clearly you haven't driven a Civic with groceries. It does fix it. Never had a problem in 10 years with a proper trunk--no net, no hook, no box. Just a proper trunk.

I agree with the playground idea. I'm a huge outdoor playground person (hiking, biking, kayaking, camping, backpacking, skating, etc). Just is that we are the minority. Not many people are actually buying a vehicle based on that.

 

[hal2kilo]

Gas, gas, gas. What about Fn diesel? Still over $5 a gallon at Costco in WA state.

 

[vi edit]

I still don't think "safety" in that sense is comparing a midsize SUV to a Midsize car. It's comparing the Midsize SUV you want vs another. Or with the technology package that has features they find more safe (lane control, adaptive cruise ect).

30 years ago people were moving to giant ass SUV's under the veil of "big metal cage more safe". That's not the same market now. Saftey in that response is likely within the same category of vehicles.

If a buyer has a choice of "SUV A" with a 3 star NHSTA safety rating and "SUV B" with a 5 star and they buy SUV "B" that's still safety related.

 

[alien42]

I just paid 2.599 a gallon in Atlanta, don't remember when it was this cheap.

Thanks Brandon 😉

 

[DaaQ]

Just half a cent? That isn't worth posting about.

You know damn well what was meant.

let me fix it for you $0.50

 

[DaaQ]

This feels like a 20 year old argument.

Remove the term SUV from the conversation and just respect that higher load heights are easier for getting kids and car seats setup. Higher trunk areas work better for awkward cargo like strollers and "weekend stuff". Higher riding heights help with visibility. Roof rails help carry bikes, ski's, and cargo boxes.

These are things that midsize sedans just don't do as well.

I love mini vans. I own a Mach-E. I fucking hated the Nissan Altima I had for a rental last week.

There are limits to a 4 door & trunk car.

It's Crossovers, or back in the day, station wagons.

Everyone wants to equate a SUV with a damn Suburban XL, Expedition/XL or Excursion which is no longer produced.

Nothing bout them Crew Cab pickups though. Not seen them mentioned.

 

[vi edit]

Yeah, most "SUV's" are just unibody station wagons with a higher roof line at this point. Or a less functional minivan that shares the same platform. If Subaru had a full EV Outback I'd be all over that. Like almost exactly a current state Outback...just give me that...but with dual electric motors and 300 miles of range and call it day. They wouldn't be able to crank them out fast enough to support the PNW market.

 

[DaaQ]

Yeah, most "SUV's" are just unibody station wagons with a higher roof line at this point. Or a less functional minivan that shares the same platform. If Subaru had a full EV Outback I'd be all over that. Like almost exactly a current state Outback...just give me that...but with dual electric motors and 300 miles of range and call it day. They wouldn't be able to crank them out fast enough to support the PNW market.

Just waiting for the El Caminos to reappear! LOL.

 

[manly]

So safety being a top criteria is a 20 year old bias? What lets see happened last year?
View attachment 71447

And clearly you haven't driven a Civic with groceries. It does fix it. Never had a problem in 10 years with a proper trunk--no net, no hook, no box. Just a proper trunk.

I agree with the playground idea. I'm a huge outdoor playground person (hiking, biking, kayaking, camping, backpacking, skating, etc). Just is that we are the minority. Not many people are actually buying a vehicle based on that.

LMAO 56% claim to care a lot about fuel efficiency. This survey seems questionable.

 

[alien42]

Just waiting for the El Caminos to reappear! LOL.

They already have, they're called a Hyundai Santa Cruz.

 

[Captante]

One thing SUV's will never figure out is how to defy the laws of physics and the effects they have on things like center-of-gravity, increased wheel-travel and substantially higher amounts of "unsprung" weight. (weight not carried by the suspension ie: larger wheels/tires/struts)

You know.... the critically important things most folks don't worry about at all until they're trying to avoid crashing into something in a relatively clumsy and heavy vehicle.

 

[vi edit]

Again, we are taking 20+ year old biases into acct. Most "suvs" sold now are just mini vans without sliding doors or station wagons with a bit higher cabin.

These aren't the obnoxious waddling barges like a 2001 Suburban or Expedition.

Cars, SUVs, and Trucks With the Best and Worst Braking Distances - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports spotlights the best and worst cars, SUVs, minivans, and trucks for braking distances based on our comprehensive tests.

www.consumerreports.org

The Rav4 is one of the most common sold SUV's. It's got a stopping distance of 130ft. Right in line with midsize sedans. The Rav4 is less than a 100 pounds more than a Camry.

These aren't significant differences.

 

[Captante]

Again, we are taking 20+ year old biases into acct. Most "suvs" sold now are just mini vans without sliding doors or station wagons with a bit higher cabin.

These aren't the obnoxious waddling barges like a 2001 Suburban or Expedition.

Cars, SUVs, and Trucks With the Best and Worst Braking Distances - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports spotlights the best and worst cars, SUVs, minivans, and trucks for braking distances based on our comprehensive tests.

www.consumerreports.org

The Rav4 is one of the most common sold SUV's. It's got a stopping distance of 130ft. Right in line with midsize sedans. The Rav4 is less than a 100 pounds more than a Camry.

These aren't significant differences.

My ex-wife has a 2021 RAV4 Hybrid that I've driven a bunch of times plus I had a rental 2021 Corolla ICE for a few weeks last year.

The Corolla handled and rode substantially better... it's not debatable in any way PLUS "IRL" the ICE Corolla used about the same amount of gas as the HYBRID RAV4 on the highway while being much less "finicky".

I've also compared the handling/ride of a Lincoln MKT (mini-van/SUV mix) and an MKS sedan and the sedan drives a TON better although the ride quality IS very close in this case.

If you read consumer reports passenger car testing regularly you will already know these things.

 

[Captante]

These aren't significant differences.

Have you actually driven EITHER of these vehicles? I've driven BOTH.

A new Camry is SO much nicer than a RAV4 in pretty much every way aside from just being a Toyota that even comparing them is pretty silly.

Newer small SUV's/mini-van's DO handle/ride a lot better than older models but they DO NOT handle/ride better than comparable cars. (plus they're less efficient)

 

[vi edit]

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. But I'm providing you measurable facts. I don't really want to discuss how something felt when driving.

How something "feels" when driving can be a wild combination of factors. Tires probably being one of the biggest. How the steering is tuned is another. Some cars just have a wheel that feels like it's stuck in a tub of butter. Others feel like you can feel every pebble in the road transferred into the wheel. And opinions on "what feels better" is different too. My dad has a very different opinion on what a car should feel like when driving than I do.

And comparing highway mileage for a hybrid is just trying to be shitty. That's not where they excel anyway. They are meant to significantly increase in town mileage. They are meant for people that do a ton of in town stop and go urban/suburban slogging. Same for where EV's really excel. EV's are far more efficient in town than on the highway. That is as you say, a function of physics.

 

[Captante]

I'm sure that the laws of physics actually DO NOT actually apply here because of "feels" lol.



Sorry but all else being equal (or at least comparable!) a passenger-car will ride and handle better, stop faster AND get better fuel-economy/range from charge than an SUV every single time.

Hell my lowly 2012 Honda Fit will literally run rings around my ex's 2021 RAV4 mini-SUV in pretty much any situation aside from snow. (to be fair the Toyota has much better brakes, is faster off the line and rides smoother/quieter)


EDIT: Then again considering the way people choose motorcycles with gas-tanks high on top of the frame, tall handlebars, upright riding positions and fat/heavy wheels as if this has zero effect on performance/safety, I'm not sure why I'm surprised.

 

[hal2kilo]

It's Crossovers, or back in the day, station wagons.

Everyone wants to equate a SUV with a damn Suburban XL, Expedition/XL or Excursion which is no longer produced.

Nothing bout them Crew Cab pickups though. Not seen them mentioned.

Just maybe Jeep has the right idea, bringing back the ultimate in giant GG's with the Grand Wagoneer.

 

[Zor Prime]

Newer small SUV's/mini-van's DO handle/ride a lot better than older models but they DO NOT handle/ride better than comparable cars. (plus they're less efficient)

Facts.

A silver bullet to defeat a high center of gravity as far as handling goes does not exist without beginning to rack up cost and expense on gadgetry and even then you've got body roll to also compensate for requiring even more expense.

Race cars would deploy SUVs if they had an edge. They do not nor will they ever.

The first generation Odyssey used the same year model Accord chassis. It handled really well, actually. For a minivan? Yeah, it handled like a dream. But there was no getting around the body roll courtesy of the higher center of gravity and increased weight unless you wanted a rock hard suspension setup which would have made drivers and passengers have cracked teeth the moment they went over a pebble.

 

[Brainonska511]

I don't necessarily believe that crossovers and SUVs are inherently more popular amongst the public. They're popular with manufacturers because they only have to conform to light truck standards per CAFE compared to the tighter standards that sedans and hatchbacks have to hit, and because they have higher profit margins. And for these big reasons, manufacturers have pushed them through advertising and reducing choice in the sedan/hatchback market. Just look at the Escape - built on a Fiesta platform (if I'm recalling correctly): sells for several thousand more - just pure profit for Ford.

Perhaps there is some consumer preference playing a part, but let's not assume that this preference was developed in a vacuum and not subject to the undue influence of profit-seeking car companies.

 

[Captante]

When discussing the merits of vehicles (or anything else) that you have chosen to buy as an individual, there's a real tendency to "circle the wagons" around your buying decision.

This is human nature.... everyone wants to feel like they made the "right" choice and commonly this leads to being "defensive" and frankly even a bit irrational if one isn't careful.

It's 100% fine if you are happy and satisfied with your choice to buy an SUV but that decision doesn't do anything for the effects on performance from its design no matter how badly you want it to!

 

[manly]

Again, we are taking 20+ year old biases into acct. Most "suvs" sold now are just mini vans without sliding doors or station wagons with a bit higher cabin.

These aren't the obnoxious waddling barges like a 2001 Suburban or Expedition.

Cars, SUVs, and Trucks With the Best and Worst Braking Distances - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports spotlights the best and worst cars, SUVs, minivans, and trucks for braking distances based on our comprehensive tests.

www.consumerreports.org

The Rav4 is one of the most common sold SUV's. It's got a stopping distance of 130ft. Right in line with midsize sedans. The Rav4 is less than a 100 pounds more than a Camry.

These aren't significant differences.

This thread is kinda hilarious. People keep comparing compact cars to the RAV4 and claim the former is at least as good. At least the Corolla is a credible example, unlike the 78hp Mirage G4 from a few pages back. Boxy SUVs have worse aerodynamics than modern sedans/coupes, so they do suffer a bit in the fuel efficiency arena. The RAV4 is somewhat class leading at a tick above 40 mpg, whereas the Prius has exceeded 50 mpg for many years. It's just the nature of the beast, different strokes for different folks. (The real problem with fuel efficiency lies with pickup trucks.)

We all get why families want more interior space and cargo area. Seems like it's empty nesters here arguing that SUVs are dumb. The most logical alternative to a CUV is probably a station wagon, which we all know is a dead car category. The bottom line is that consumers have spoken loudly, and it's dumb to argue my econobox is better than a RAV4 in so many ways!