Where do we expect gas prices to be later this month, now that election is over?

[JWade]

Personally, I think some form of plug in hybrid or more develop of efficient ICE based range extenders is really the way forward. At least until we manage to defeat a lot of chemistry, rare material and physics challenges we don't have answers for yet.

i saw a commercial for a toyota hybrid that gets 39 mpg. My daughter's non-hybrid car gets 40mpg intown and 45mpg on the highway. there are fuel efficient cars out there, just people dont want to buy them much.

 

[vi edit]

i saw a commercial for a toyota hybrid that gets 39 mpg. My daughter's non-hybrid car gets 40mpg intown and 45mpg on the highway. there are fuel efficient cars out there, just people dont want to buy them much.

Anecdotes like that are useless. If a Fiesta or Fit pulls that mileage and works for her, great. It's not replacing a family car or something bigger that a lot of people want.

I still contend that the most efficient form of cutting down on commute driven fuel (gas, electricity, whatever) is simply to drive less. But us freedom loving muricans can't accept that reality.

 

[JWade]

I mean...I know conservatives by definition stand against change and progress, but do you always have to be dishonest about WHY?

i know plenty of conservatives that are for EV's. you are characterizing all conservatives as the same. One's that live in the city are for EV's, rural ones, tend to be against them, atleast at a minimum on the line about them. Also know plenty of people in the Northern US, and there they dont like EV's, the cold will kill the batteries, not from using heaters, but from just being cold. I have quite a few friends that work on pipelines/fields up north, their companies have gotten them EV's to try out, and in the cold weather (below 40 degrees) the range is cut in half. If everyone could store their EV inside then its not a problem, but everyone cant do that.

I really dont see it being possible for EV tractors and EV semi's being feasible anytime soon. Even with the constant advances in battery technology. small farm tractors, sure, but the big farms, no, not feasible. Even with a good charging infrastructure on the interstate system, it will be hard for semi's. all the towns that are not near an interstate that semi's deliver to is why. Then you also have all the laws and regulations for semi drivers. they can only drive so much in a day, having to make more stops to charge will impact how far they can drive in a day because they are stopping more often than they would burning diesel. I do believe in the future it will be possible, but we arent there yet.

 

[JWade]

Anecdotes like that are useless. If a Fiesta or Fit pulls that mileage and works for her, great. It's not replacing a family car or something bigger that a lot of people want.

I still contend that the most efficient form of cutting down on commute driven fuel (gas, electricity, whatever) is simply to drive less. But us freedom loving muricans can't accept that reality.

she has a four door, 5 passenger car. Misubishi Mirage G4. like i said, which it seems you agree with, there are fuel efficient cars out there, that get better fuel economy than hybrids, but people dont want to drive them. Also, the Ford Fiesta gets an estimated 27/35mpg. Just because its small doesnt mean it gets really good gas mileage.

I agree 100% on cutting down on the driving. Which is something I have taught my kids, combine trips. Dont go to town to just get a gallon of milk, wait until you need to go to town for multiple things/places. Combine doing stuff, so you make less trips, use less gas. People do accept that reality, lots dont. Does a family of four really need an SUV when that fuel efficient car fits their family?

 

[Vic]

Because battery technology won't improve? its doubled in a decade so there is 100%Batteries
You know fossil fuel is getting harder and harder to source and annual finds aren't keeping up?
Change now while we can or fail miserably in the future

The conservative answer to resisting progress is always that whatever we have now cannot be improved on. They have many different ways of saying that of course but it all boils down to that same thing. They resist all progress out of fear of change and then when the world changes anyway (as it will) they cry that change was forced on them by 'fascists' or whatever.

But yes, they sincerely believe that even though battery tech has more than doubled in the last decade there will be no more advances between now and 2035. That is how the conservative brain works.

 

[fskimospy]

i know plenty of conservatives that are for EV's. you are characterizing all conservatives as the same. One's that live in the city are for EV's, rural ones, tend to be against them, atleast at a minimum on the line about them. Also know plenty of people in the Northern US, and there they dont like EV's, the cold will kill the batteries, not from using heaters, but from just being cold. I have quite a few friends that work on pipelines/fields up north, their companies have gotten them EV's to try out, and in the cold weather (below 40 degrees) the range is cut in half. If everyone could store their EV inside then its not a problem, but everyone cant do that.

I really dont see it being possible for EV tractors and EV semi's being feasible anytime soon. Even with the constant advances in battery technology. small farm tractors, sure, but the big farms, no, not feasible. Even with a good charging infrastructure on the interstate system, it will be hard for semi's. all the towns that are not near an interstate that semi's deliver to is why. Then you also have all the laws and regulations for semi drivers. they can only drive so much in a day, having to make more stops to charge will impact how far they can drive in a day because they are stopping more often than they would burning diesel. I do believe in the future it will be possible, but we arent there yet.

Yes, for some applications we will continue to need gas powered vehicles for quite a while to come. That being said this is changing rapidly and I think we are close to the point where there will be mass EV infrastructure buildout.

So sure, EVs might not be workable in rural Oklahoma or whatever but for lots of the country (and even more where most of the population lives) this is coming soon.

 

[Paratus]

>It might also be helpful to read up on how electrical storage devices are >affected by changes in temperature.

No kidding - and also consider the fact that in places that get a lot of cold & snow, not only do the batteries themselves have less available power due to chemistry/physics, but users would be putting a LOT more demand on them for defrosting windows, heating the interior, etc.

Without about a 30% increase in battery energy density, I just don't see how the current generation of electrical vehicles would ever work out for families here in the Midwest.

Plus, to actually make the electric vehicles benefit the environment, a lot of new green nuclear power plants would need to be built.

Let me help you clear some misconceptions up.

Let’s compare the relative efficiencies of the same model of vehicle but in ICE, hybrid, and EV.

The F150 comes in all three. For comparison sake I’ll take the mpg and covert to miles / kWh (a gallon of gas has 33.7kwh)

F150 V8 ICE - 20 mpg or .6 miles/kwh
F150 Hybrid - 24 mpg or .71 miles/kwh
F150 Lightning EV - 2 miles / kwh

So the F150 Lightning is 3.37 times more efficient than the V8 and 2.8 times more efficient than the hybrid.

Onto charging
This “OMG how will we ever charge EVs without building huge numbers of new power plants!” is basically just BS.

Follow along

I’ll use Texas’s shitty grid and the fact that Texans tend to drive more than other states. In fact Texans avg 45 miles of driving per day.

EVs run the gambit from ~ 2 miles / kWh to 4+ miles / kWh. Let’s assume an EV fleet lots of SUVs and F150s that averages 3 miles / kWh.

That means your average EV owner needs 15kwh a day to recharge.

Therefore 1 GWH of electricity can charge 67,000 EVs. Let’s see how much power we have available in 2022. To be conservative I’ll use data from the summer when our grid is more stressed.

For the 8 hours from midnight to 8 am demand averages about 43GW while ERCOT commited about 53GW of power. ERCOT generally tries to maintain a minimum of 3.5GW of margin so that leaves us an average of 6.5GW over 8 hours. Or 52GWh

Looking at the time period from 8pm to 11:59pm you can probably get another 8GWH for a total of 60GWh over evening hours.

Thats enough to charge over 4 million EVs or 20% of all cars in Texas without changing anything about how the grid is run.

To replace 100% of the 20million vehicles in Texas with EVs under the same assumptions would require an average of an extra 12.5GW each hour. Texas’s grid maxes out at around 80GW today, enough to replace all of todays cars with EVs today.

The grid is not the problem.

Finally on your what if it’s cold issue. Take a F150 long range with 320 miles of range. Chop off 40% to keep the battery between 20% and 80%. Then chop off another 20% for cold weather so you’ve only got 40% of the battery. Finally assume your are getting 1.8miles/ kWh because you are driving fast or hauling stuff in the bed.

As long as you can charge at home each day you’d have at least 90-100miles of range 2-3 times the average amount a person drives in a day.

If you can’t charge at home or you have to make cross state 600 mile round trips for trombone repair in the dead of winter then I’d wait for better EVs.

 

[desy]

I don't get the aversion to an all electric vehicle, Once they have a proper battery figured out it's a much superior vehicle
Quieter more powerful cheaper to build and maintain.
It's like hoping cassette tapes make a comeback, gas is the past.

Anecdotally I have said many times on these forums it's not for me currently as we have snow on the ground 6 months out of the year here and -40 however, I cheer for the day when it is the best option

 

[Pohemi]

>>Golly!!!! Maybe you need to alert the various auto manufacturers of all these >>problems! You just might save the day!!!! Obviously no one has even thought >>about those problems, have they?

Are you familiar with the comment quote system? After nearly 16 years here, I'd think you'd have figured it out.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't get the aversion to an all electric vehicle, Once they have a proper battery figured out it's a much superior vehicle
Quieter more powerful cheaper to build and maintain.
It's like hoping cassette tapes make a comeback, gas is the past.

Anecdotally I have said many times on these forums it's not for me currently as we have snow on the ground 6 months out of the year here and -40 however, I cheer for the day when it is the best option

Exactly. EVs are not currently the answer for everything but they are an effective answer for the driving needs of most people and that’s only going to continue to improve.

Right now we need a more robust charger network and hopefully continued improvements to charging speed and capacity. I feel we’ve seen steady improvements there so hopefully those continue.

 

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

The conservative answer to resisting progress is always that whatever we have now cannot be improved on.

That's a strange way to put it. I would think that conservatives would believe that most of what we have could be improved over time. I mean, just observing technology over the past couple of hundred years would show THAT.

As technologies came around that made the old ones inefficient and inconvenient, people adopted the more efficient and/or convenient ones over time.

I think the main difference in point of view between a conservative and liberal when it comes to technology would be how it fits in when it comes to personal freedom/economy, vs how it fits in in helping society in some way. In other words, looking at where the benefit lies.

 

[vi edit]

Uh huh.

 

[UNCjigga]

My wife wants a new minivan. Except, nobody makes minivans anymore--and the few that still exist are impossible to find on nearby lots or anywhere close to MSRP. Don't even mention used/certified pre-owned as those are even more expensive than new in some cases!!!

Why should I have to pay $60K for a minivan??? I think I'll blame President Biden. He seems to prefer convertibles and trucks. Must be his fault. I sure won't go around blaming Asian supply chains or market forces.

 

[MrSquished]

That's a strange way to put it. I would think that conservatives would believe that most of what we have could be improved over time. I mean, just observing technology over the past couple of hundred years would show THAT.

As technologies came around that made the old ones inefficient and inconvenient, people adopted the more efficient and/or convenient ones over time.

I think the main difference in point of view between a conservative and liberal when it comes to technology would be how it fits in when it comes to personal freedom/economy, vs how it fits in in helping society in some way. In other words, looking at where the benefit lies.

Conservatives in general look to the past - they do not like the diversification of the country - it's an assault on white people. They fly Confederate flags proudly. They want to take away women's rights. They want to take away the rights of minorities. They hate EV and renewables - they want to only stick with fossil fuels. They want to roll back any progress for homosexuals. I mean the list goes on and on and on. Any facet of society, they are regressive.

 

[Amused]

I grew up in the 70s. I remember all the smokers stinking up places when I was just trying to mind my own bidness. (oddly no mention of weed smoke, I oppose that too)

I also remember those stinky cars and buses on the road that ran on carburetors, with no fuel injection and no emission control. They were pretty bad.

In fact, I have gotten so spoiled to clean air, every time I get behind a car from the 1970s and older, I cant believe how noxious there tailpipe emissions are. They almost overwhelm my charcoal air filter!

So we have come a long way. We should strive to improve on existing combustion technology by adding battery components to extend range vs going 100% electric when we are not ready yet.

ALL of that progress was mandated. It would not have happened otherwise. We'd look like Bejing today had the EPA not been created and clean air act enforced. You called that "environmental fascism."

Smoking indoors was BANNED. Leaded gas was BANNED. Catalytic converters were MANDATED. Clean air rules were MANDATED.

NONE of that came about in the free market and no one in the industry was willing to do it.

 

[MrSquished]

ALL of that progress was mandated. It would not have happened otherwise. We'd look like Bejing today had the EPA not been created and clean air act enforced. You called that "environmental fascism."

Smoking indoors was BANNED. Leaded gas was BANNED. Catalytic converters were MANDATED. Clean air rules were MANDATED.

NONE of that came about in the free market and no one in the industry was willing to do it.

It's amazing how these people never exist in reality, all to continue to exist in ignorance to keep things their way, while lacking any critical thinking skills

 

[vi edit]

I swear we consumers keep eating the "careful what you wish for" razor filled cupcakes.

"WE WANT A LA CARTE CABLE...CUT THAT CORD!!!!". Netflix, Disney +, Hulu, HBO Max and Amazon Prime later you now have the same monthly cost you were paying and a lot of hidden nickel and diming.

"WE WANT TO CUT OUT CAR DEALERS AND MIDDLE MEN!" A pandemic and supply chain crisis later we have consumer direct ordering from many companies but good luck knowing when you'll actually be able to order or get your vehicle. At this point my Lightning Reservation is out of diapers, walking and starting to talk in full sentences. And I haven't even had an opening to order. It might be 4 years before I go from reservation to order.

 

[brycejones]

My wife wants a new minivan. Except, nobody makes minivans anymore--and the few that still exist are impossible to find on nearby lots or anywhere close to MSRP. Don't even mention used/certified pre-owned as those are even more expensive than new in some cases!!!

Why should I have to pay $60K for a minivan??? I think I'll blame President Biden. He seems to prefer convertibles and trucks. Must be his fault. I sure won't go around blaming Asian supply chains or market forces.

Sienna by far the best fuel economy (shop for a dealer that will order one at MSRP is your only hope). The plug-in Chrysler has horrible long term reliability. Honda and Kia are both good options if fuel economy isn't a primary driver for you.

 

[vi edit]

Yeah I had a Sienna Hybrid for about a week this summer. Had family of four and no small amount of luggage. It was a bit anemic (only 4 cylinder + electric motor) but still averaged almost 38MPG trompsing through the Rockies (including the 10,000' elevation + Trail Ridge Road loop) and the winding mountains of the Black Hills.

It's not perfect, but it was pretty good. My old Pacifica could do 32-34MPG on the highway fully loaded, which was pretty good for the size of the vehicle and power it had. But the Sienna crushes it in town.

 

[brycejones]

Yeah I had a Sienna Hybrid for about a week this summer. Had family of four and no small amount of luggage. It was a bit anemic (only 4 cylinder + electric motor) but still averaged almost 38MPG trompsing through the Rockies (including the 10,000' elevation + Trail Ridge Road loop) and the winding mountains of the Black Hills.

It's not perfect, but it was pretty good. My old Pacifica could do 32-34MPG on the highway fully loaded, which was pretty good for the size of the vehicle and power it had. But the Sienna crushes it in town.

That's a proper road trip. Trail Ridge is one of my favorite drives.

 

[vi edit]

That's a proper road trip. Trail Ridge is one of my favorite drives.

For sure! Had my freedom restricted by hybrid tyranny here.

 

[Homerboy]

In every GOP advertisement I saw, they were running on "high gas prices". So I do look forward to all their proposals as to how they are going to fix it.

 

[IronWing]

The conservative answer to resisting progress is always that whatever we have now cannot be improved on.

This is the fundamental world view if one believes in the biblical fall. Things will generally get worse as we move farther from the garden.

 

[vi edit]

This is the fundamental world view if one believes in the biblical fall. Things will generally get worse as we move farther from the garden.

Add some good old fashioned corporate lobbying, for a treat.

 

[JTsyo]

I swear we consumers keep eating the "careful what you wish for" razor filled cupcakes.

"WE WANT A LA CARTE CABLE...CUT THAT CORD!!!!". Netflix, Disney +, Hulu, HBO Max and Amazon Prime later you now have the same monthly cost you were paying and a lot of hidden nickel and diming.

"WE WANT TO CUT OUT CAR DEALERS AND MIDDLE MEN!" A pandemic and supply chain crisis later we have consumer direct ordering from many companies but good luck knowing when you'll actually be able to order or get your vehicle. At this point my Lightning Reservation is out of diapers, walking and starting to talk in full sentences. And I haven't even had an opening to order. It might be 4 years before I go from reservation to order.

I was paying $140 for Triple pay with basic cable. Now I pay $40 for internet, $2 something for VOIP and $21 for streaming services. $63 total and I don't have enough time to watch all the content.

How would having dealerships help increase the car supply? We see what the dealerships do when the supply is tight, tack on a few more thousand in profits for them.