When does the NDA lift for R600?

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Matt2

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2001
4,762
0
0
Originally posted by: Pugnate
Originally posted by: yacoub
Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
there was once a time, many years ago, when we could have meaningful discussion here but clearly that ship has sailed.

I think she left port a couple years ago. :(

I am sorry, but I just find that funny coming from you. You seem to have one of the biggest flamethrowers around here. Don't be a hypocrite.

Don't even bother with this guy. I dont know who died and gave him permission to be such a jerk.

Personally, I'd wait till I had over 1000 posts before I thought I ran the place. I guess yacoub didnt get the memo.
 

TanisHalfElven

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,512
0
76
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Can't agree apoppin. I think Barcelona will turn out OK (not brilliant mind you - merely OK compared to Intels products - it will be no repeat of the brilliance k7/k8 showed, more a K6-2 hang in there product). I very much doubt R600 will be so fortunate. nvidia took ATi completely by surprise with G80 - I think they are still trying to extract personnel from the ceiling (you would have thought that nv40 would have been warning enough of just how rapidly nvidia can move in an unexpected direction, but, apparently it wasn't).

as much as i hate to admit it he's right.
amd screwed up. they did not expect G80 after years of "we won't go to unified shaders yet".

they could have been first to market with a DX10 product. in fact correct me if i am wrong wasn't R500 (a unified shader arch) released before R520.
 

Matt2

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2001
4,762
0
0
Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Can't agree apoppin. I think Barcelona will turn out OK (not brilliant mind you - merely OK compared to Intels products - it will be no repeat of the brilliance k7/k8 showed, more a K6-2 hang in there product). I very much doubt R600 will be so fortunate. nvidia took ATi completely by surprise with G80 - I think they are still trying to extract personnel from the ceiling (you would have thought that nv40 would have been warning enough of just how rapidly nvidia can move in an unexpected direction, but, apparently it wasn't).

as much as i hate to admit it he's right.
amd screwed up. they did not expect G80 after years of "we won't go to unified shaders yet".

they could have been first to market with a DX10 product. in fact correct me if i am wrong wasn't R500 (a unified shader arch) released before R520.

The Xbox360 GPU "Xenos" is the product of R500.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Can't agree apoppin. I think Barcelona will turn out OK (not brilliant mind you - merely OK compared to Intels products - it will be no repeat of the brilliance k7/k8 showed, more a K6-2 hang in there product). I very much doubt R600 will be so fortunate. nvidia took ATi completely by surprise with G80 - I think they are still trying to extract personnel from the ceiling (you would have thought that nv40 would have been warning enough of just how rapidly nvidia can move in an unexpected direction, but, apparently it wasn't).

as much as i hate to admit it he's right.
amd screwed up. they did not expect G80 after years of "we won't go to unified shaders yet".

they could have been first to market with a DX10 product. in fact correct me if i am wrong wasn't R500 (a unified shader arch) released before R520.

the *only* thing Gstanfor and i disagreed on is barcelona's likely future ;)

i am more pessimistic ... if you can believe it ... that's *why* the AMD/ATi guys are so pissed at my 'analyis' ... i think AMD 'tinkered' too much with ATi's GPU
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
If by r500 you mean Xenos (the GPU that powers xbox360) then yes, ATI were first to (an irrelevant) market with a unified architecture. Something they liked to make much of in the B3D forums and waved around as proof they would be there first again on the PC and be the best performing on the PC. Unfortunately, thats not how it all worked out though.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
If by r500 you mean Xenos (the GPU that powers xbox360) then yes, ATI were first to (an irrelevant) market with a unified architecture. Something they liked to make much of in the B3D forums and waved around as proof they would be there first again on the PC and be the best performing on the PC. Unfortunately, thats not how it all worked out though.

it *was* important to ATi ... AMD doesn't obviously feel it was so important

and it was kinda 'important' .. a relatively cheap GPU for xbox360 :p
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Can't agree apoppin. I think Barcelona will turn out OK (not brilliant mind you - merely OK compared to Intels products - it will be no repeat of the brilliance k7/k8 showed, more a K6-2 hang in there product). I very much doubt R600 will be so fortunate. nvidia took ATi completely by surprise with G80 - I think they are still trying to extract personnel from the ceiling (you would have thought that nv40 would have been warning enough of just how rapidly nvidia can move in an unexpected direction, but, apparently it wasn't).

as much as i hate to admit it he's right.
amd screwed up. they did not expect G80 after years of "we won't go to unified shaders yet".

they could have been first to market with a DX10 product. in fact correct me if i am wrong wasn't R500 (a unified shader arch) released before R520.

the *only* thing Gstanfor and i disagreed on is barcelona's likely future ;)

i am more pessimistic ... if you can believe it ... that's *why* the AMD/ATi guys are so pissed at my 'analyis' ... i think AMD 'tinkered' too much with ATi's GPU

AMD have lots of experience with "inferior" CPU's vs the competition. Though it won't be a pleasant situation for them, it won't kill them either, especially if Barcelona is well thought out - clock speed and process tech are not the be all and end all for success, as the 6502 processor family demonstrated in the home computer market many years ago (mind you it was *designed* to be low cost).
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
If by r500 you mean Xenos (the GPU that powers xbox360) then yes, ATI were first to (an irrelevant) market with a unified architecture. Something they liked to make much of in the B3D forums and waved around as proof they would be there first again on the PC and be the best performing on the PC. Unfortunately, thats not how it all worked out though.

it *was* important to ATi ... AMD doesn't obviously feel it was so important

and it was kinda 'important' .. a relatively cheap GPU for xbox360 :p

Well if R600 flops and Barcelona only holds the line I suspect Xenos will become *VERY* interesting to AMD management as it will be just about the only thing bringing revenue in the front door...
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Can't agree apoppin. I think Barcelona will turn out OK (not brilliant mind you - merely OK compared to Intels products - it will be no repeat of the brilliance k7/k8 showed, more a K6-2 hang in there product). I very much doubt R600 will be so fortunate. nvidia took ATi completely by surprise with G80 - I think they are still trying to extract personnel from the ceiling (you would have thought that nv40 would have been warning enough of just how rapidly nvidia can move in an unexpected direction, but, apparently it wasn't).

as much as i hate to admit it he's right.
amd screwed up. they did not expect G80 after years of "we won't go to unified shaders yet".

they could have been first to market with a DX10 product. in fact correct me if i am wrong wasn't R500 (a unified shader arch) released before R520.

the *only* thing Gstanfor and i disagreed on is barcelona's likely future ;)

i am more pessimistic ... if you can believe it ... that's *why* the AMD/ATi guys are so pissed at my 'analyis' ... i think AMD 'tinkered' too much with ATi's GPU

AMD have lots of experience with "inferior" CPU's vs the competition. Though it won't be a pleasant situation for them, it won't kill them either, especially if Barcelona is well thought out - clock speed and process tech are not the be all and end all for success, as the 6502 processor family demonstrated in the home computer market many years ago (mind you it was *designed* to be low cost).

in *all* AMD's many years years they *weren't dragging* along a carcass of another unIntegrated Big company that sapped ALL of their resources and drove them into deep debt

intel is willing to also play a price war
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
The thing that truly amuses me is that it was the advent of 3D graphics that really caused customer perception problems for AMD in the first place (weak FPU in 5x86, K5 & K6 made intel look better to anyone wanting to play 3D games), then when AMD turns all that around and decides to buy a 3d graphics company it chooses poorly. Talk about never learning!
 

yacoub

Golden Member
May 24, 2005
1,991
14
81
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
...then when AMD turns all that around and decides to buy a 3d graphics company it chooses poorly. Talk about never learning!



Did they have a choice though? NVidia is the only other one in town worth owning, but was NVidia also for sale? I'm curious... isn't NVidia a bigger company (they did buy 3dfx), or perhaps they already had too much cooperation with Intel that would prevent AMD from being able to buy them out due to disclosures and trade secrets? Then again, imagine AMD making the outlay to purchase a company much larger than ATi. My goodness their numbers would be even worse than they already are! :D

Though I do not agree when you say harsh things like "talk about never learning". I am quite sure they have a rather good number of folks on their payroll more intelligent than either of us who review mergers and acquisitions and, knowing the ins and outs of the company financials and technological r&d portfolio and goals, approve/make decisions based on reasons we will never know. It's easy to act like we know more simply because we see a near-term shortfall and bad omens. Maybe they did make a mistake. Or maybe they are sacrificing the near-term because their sights are set down the road.

I know Intel's processor R&D teams work through at least a five year R&D cycle. On the upside that means strategy & planning folks are able to look down the road and better determine if they can take a loss for a couple quarters or so during a price war if it'll be to their advantage later on.
On the downside, it's hard to predict processor design five years in advance so sometimes design teams can work hard and spend lots of R&D dollars on something that ultimately gets scrapped which wastes time and money. This eventuality is clearly going to be less damaging to Intel than if it happens to AMD since Intel can absorb a poor decision more easily as it is a larger company and can afford to take such things in stride.

(My apologies in advance if you didn't actually want a serious reply and just wanted to rag on AMD again.)
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: yacoub
Did they have a choice though? Was NVidia also for sale? I'm curious... isn't NVidia a bigger company (they did buy 3dfx), or perhaps they already had too much cooperation with Intel that would prevent AMD from being able to buy them out due to disclosures and trade secrets?

Though I do not agree when you say harsh things like "talk about never learning". I am quite sure they have a rather good number of folks on their payroll more intelligent than either of us who review mergers and acquisitions and, knowing the ins and outs of the company financials and technological r&d portfolio and goals, approve/make decisions based on reasons we will never know. It's easy to act like we know more simply because we see a near-term shortfall and bad omens. Maybe they did make a mistake. Or maybe they are sacrificing the near-term because their sights are set down the road.

I know Intel's processor R&D teams work through at least a five year R&D cycle. On the upside that means they are able to look down the road and better determine if they can take a loss for a couple quarters or so during a price war if it'll be to their advantage later on.
On the downside, it's hard to predict processor design five years in advance so sometimes design teams can work hard and spend lots of R&D dollars on something that ultimately gets scrapped which wastes time and money. This eventuality is clearly going to be less damaging to Intel than if it happens to AMD since Intel can absord more poor decisions as it is a larger company and can afford to take such things in stride.

(My apologies in advance if you didn't actually want a serious reply and just wanted to rag on AMD again.)

nvidia was too expensive

i personally *thought* at first that the merger *could* be a great thing


now i am having 2nd third and 4th thoughts about my previous thoughts

a merger is like a marriage ... some go quite well, some are *hell*
you cannot forecast how well 2 companys will merge

serious enough answer for you?

no 'rant' and no emoticons
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
Well with perhaps the exception of emerging markets, if it (takeover target) doesn't put up a struggle it usually isn't worth taking over anyway.

It was ATi, not nvidia that had intel cooperation in the past, and I personally think ATI was purchased more for their engineering focus than their 3D accomplishments.
 

josh6079

Diamond Member
Mar 17, 2006
3,261
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0
..then when AMD turns all that around and decides to buy a 3d graphics company it chooses poorly. Talk about never learning!
It's too early to judge the full effect of the AMD / ATi merger IMO. The very reason why AMD and ATi merged (aka. Fusion) hasn't even been seen yet.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: josh6079
..then when AMD turns all that around and decides to buy a 3d graphics company it chooses poorly. Talk about never learning!
It's too early to judge the full effect of the AMD / ATi merger IMO. The very reason why AMD and ATi merged (aka. Fusion) hasn't even been seen yet.

the *problem* is that AMD - unlike intel cannot afford to hemorrhage money

they are in deep debt with ATi's acquisition and cannot get any further cheap loans

they might not have time for Fusion ...
 

AnotherGuy

Senior member
Dec 9, 2003
678
0
71
Originally posted by: Matt2
Don't get your hopes up.

There is a press release in a couple of days in Tunisia, but I'll send you $5 if you can buy one before May 14.

Nice... get ready that 5 bucks then... Im definitly sure they will come up earlier.... maybe 5 days early... If i dont hear real results from em by april 25th though.... thats it................... i donno what im gonna do!.... since i do have every other part of the new system ready and i dont have a fkn pci-E card only agp.... so i cant even turn it on to frikin test iTTTTTTTT... Can u feel my anger???????
 

yacoub

Golden Member
May 24, 2005
1,991
14
81
Originally posted by: apoppin
serious enough answer for you?

apoppin, that'd be a question for gstanfor, not me. One shouldn't try to be a smartguy when one's reading comprehension is poor: One just ends up looking like a dumbguy.


Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Well with perhaps the exception of emerging markets, if it (takeover target) doesn't put up a struggle it usually isn't worth taking over anyway.

It was ATi, not nvidia that had intel cooperation in the past, and I personally think ATI was purchased more for their engineering focus than their 3D accomplishments.

I agree about it being for their engineering focus... weren't we hearing about their plans to integrate GPUs into system boards before the merger talk started? Maybe AMD started to feel threatened lol :D
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: yacoub
Originally posted by: apoppin
serious enough answer for you?

apoppin, that'd be a question for gstanfor, not me. Don't try to be a smartguy when your reading comprehension is poor: you just end up looking like a dumbguy.


and you resort to the personal putdowns when you have nothing to say ... i'd say your reading comprehension is far worse than mine by your poorly thought out replies.

if you want to only have Gfstanfor answer you ... then send him a PM .. don't post in open forum a question that can be answered by others
:thumbsdown:

dumbguy
 

yacoub

Golden Member
May 24, 2005
1,991
14
81
sorry apoppin, but every person on this forum except you is intelligent enough to understand that when a person quotes someone and their reply contains a comment that clearly only that one person can answer (I asked gstanfor for his intention in posting his comment, something you cannot answer unless you are gstanfor), they're not looking for you to step in, quote the comment, and make some wiseass remark to try to troll someone who hadn't said a single negative thing toward you in this thread in the first place.
When you do that, it just makes you look (even more) stupid (than usual). Just a helpful hint.

Here's another one: Stop posting for a few days. Maybe start slow by just typing your "posts" in Notepad and then closing it and not saving what you write.

Very little of your textual diarrhea is worth reading, let alone useful to anyone. It's strange... in the years I've been perusing the Video forum (since around early 2003) I don't remember seeing your garbage spewed so broadly across it as it has been in the last few weeks. Now there could be a couple reasons for this: Either you received an injury to the head recently and started posting nonsense just recently (which would be why your username never stuck out to me as one identified with posting such convoluted garbage in the past), or I simply lucked out and didn't run into so many of your posts in the past.

Either way, the fact is you ARE posting gibberish and you should seriously consider getting an MRI on your head to make sure everything's healthy in there. There are many folks here whose native language is not English yet who put you to shame in even the most basic grammar, punctuation, formatting, and general literacy of their posts.

If you ignore everything else in this post, do try to keep this one thought with you everytime you irresistably click Quote or Reply: You aren't writing your posts for yourself, you're writing them for others to read. If others are telling you your posts are frustrating to read (as you are almost constantly being told), stop being so selfish and hasty, and instead put some effort into slowing down and improving how you post. We'd all appreciate it, especially given the prolificity of your posting.

moderator's note: I just looked back through this entire thread and aside from seeing how apoppin has crapped up several pages worth of it, I see that several times he has tried to bait me into arguing with him by flaming me or taunting me even though I never said anything to him. I consistently ignored him as he consistently attempted to lure me into responding. Apparently that just frustrated him more and more and he persevered to the point now that he finally succeeded in getting me to reply. Congrats to him on being a superb troll, although I guess with 25,000 posts under his belt he must be a masterful one to have avoided punishment this long. On most forums he wouldn't have lasted a week because they have zero tolerance for inane dribble, especially tied to trollish behavior.

And if apoppin quotes this post and replies with a typical illiterate response, he will return to being duly ignored by me as he was for the first eight pages of this thread.

Good night.
 

TanisHalfElven

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,512
0
76
Originally posted by: Matt2
Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Can't agree apoppin. I think Barcelona will turn out OK (not brilliant mind you - merely OK compared to Intels products - it will be no repeat of the brilliance k7/k8 showed, more a K6-2 hang in there product). I very much doubt R600 will be so fortunate. nvidia took ATi completely by surprise with G80 - I think they are still trying to extract personnel from the ceiling (you would have thought that nv40 would have been warning enough of just how rapidly nvidia can move in an unexpected direction, but, apparently it wasn't).

as much as i hate to admit it he's right.
amd screwed up. they did not expect G80 after years of "we won't go to unified shaders yet".

they could have been first to market with a DX10 product. in fact correct me if i am wrong wasn't R500 (a unified shader arch) released before R520.

The Xbox360 GPU "Xenos" is the product of R500.

thats what i was reffering to. its a unified arch product. they had it out long before even R520. all they had to do do was add more shaders 48 -->96 maybe and release it before G80. instead they chose to stick with R600 and now they'r 6+months late when they could have been a year early.
 

TanisHalfElven

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,512
0
76
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Gstanfor
If by r500 you mean Xenos (the GPU that powers xbox360) then yes, ATI were first to (an irrelevant) market with a unified architecture. Something they liked to make much of in the B3D forums and waved around as proof they would be there first again on the PC and be the best performing on the PC. Unfortunately, thats not how it all worked out though.

it *was* important to ATi ... AMD doesn't obviously feel it was so important

and it was kinda 'important' .. a relatively cheap GPU for xbox360 :p

Well if R600 flops and Barcelona only holds the line I suspect Xenos will become *VERY* interesting to AMD management as it will be just about the only thing bringing revenue in the front door...

R500 does not bring in revenue. it was sold to MS. ATI gets nothing from it anymore.
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
Royalties are still paid to ATi for Xenos so far as I'm aware and if m$ wants shrunk/updated chips, they have to pay ATi for those too. m$ owns the chip design, but not necessarily all the technology that went into said design.

One of the mistakes that Microsoft made with the original XBox was to contract their component providers into supplying entire chips with, evidently, no development path - at least, this was the case with NVIDIA NV2A graphics processor, which resulted in Microsoft and NVIDIA going through a legal arbitration process. Although the components in the XBOX 360 in its initial form are hardly low cost, the cost of the unit over the course of its lifetime is one that has quite obviously been addressed with contracts that pay via royalties for chips sold and with Microsoft in charge of ordering the chips from the various Fabs, however the original semiconductor manufacturers are likely to still be in charge of further developments in terms of putting the cores on to smaller processes and we believe that this is part of the contract that ATI has with Microsoft.

Xenos simply isn't practical for PC's - its ROP's are radically different to what we know in PC space, being on a daughter die that also houses embedded ram for ROP operations.

The Xenos graphics processor is not a single element, but actually consists of two distinct elements: the graphics core (shader core) and the eDRAM module. The shader core is a 90nm chip manufactured by TSMC and is currently slated to run at 500MHz*, whilst the eDRAM module is another 90nm chip, manufactured by NEC and runs at 500MHz* as well. These two chips both exist side by side, together on a single package, ensuring a fast interlink between the two. The main graphics chip, the parent core, could be considered as a "shader core" as this is one of its primary tasks. The eDRAM module is a separate, daughter chip which contains the elements for reading and writing color, z and stencil and performing all of the alpha blending and z and stencil ops, including the FSAA logic. We'll explore the capabilities and operations of both these chips in greater detail throughout the article.

I suggest you have a good read of this article.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: yacoub
sorry apoppin, but every person on this forum except you is intelligent enough to understand that when a person quotes someone and their reply contains a comment that clearly only that one person can answer (I asked gstanfor for his intention in posting his comment, something you cannot answer unless you are gstanfor), they're not looking for you to step in, quote the comment, and make some wiseass remark to try to troll someone who hadn't said a single negative thing toward you in this thread in the first place.
When you do that, it just makes you look (even more) stupid (than usual). Just a helpful hint.

Here's another one: Stop posting for a few days. Maybe start slow by just typing your "posts" in Notepad and then closing it and not saving what you write.

Very little of your textual diarrhea is worth reading, let alone useful to anyone. It's strange... in the years I've been perusing the Video forum (since around early 2003) I don't remember seeing your garbage spewed so broadly across it as it has been in the last few weeks. Now there could be a couple reasons for this: Either you received an injury to the head recently and started posting nonsense just recently (which would be why your username never stuck out to me as one identified with posting such convoluted garbage in the past), or I simply lucked out and didn't run into so many of your posts in the past.

Either way, the fact is you ARE posting gibberish and you should seriously consider getting an MRI on your head to make sure everything's healthy in there. There are many folks here whose native language is not English yet who put you to shame in even the most basic grammar, punctuation, formatting, and general literacy of their posts.

If you ignore everything else in this post, do try to keep this one thought with you everytime you irresistably click Quote or Reply: You aren't writing your posts for yourself, you're writing them for others to read. If others are telling you your posts are frustrating to read (as you are almost constantly being told), stop being so selfish and hasty, and instead put some effort into slowing down and improving how you post. We'd all appreciate it, especially given the prolificity of your posting.

moderator's note: I just looked back through this entire thread and aside from seeing how apoppin has crapped up several pages worth of it, I see that several times he has tried to bait me into arguing with him by flaming me or taunting me even though I never said anything to him. I consistently ignored him as he consistently attempted to lure me into responding. Apparently that just frustrated him more and more and he persevered to the point now that he finally succeeded in getting me to reply. Congrats to him on being a superb troll, although I guess with 25,000 posts under his belt he must be a masterful one to have avoided punishment this long. On most forums he wouldn't have lasted a week because they have zero tolerance for inane dribble, especially tied to trollish behavior.

And if apoppin quotes this post and replies with a typical illiterate response, he will return to being duly ignored by me as he was for the first eight pages of this thread.

Good night.
good morning

you are a clueless Troll with no comprehension how our forum works - nevermind others
*everyone* may reply to an "open" post in a forum ... if you want ONLY Gstanfor to reply, the PM him

i will forward your post to a moderator and see if he or she thinks this is a personal attack or not ... i did not "bait" you.

please take your own advice and stop posting here

no one will miss you
 

palindrome

Senior member
Jan 11, 2006
942
1
81
I bet apoppin was elementary school kid who always tattled on the other kids when the teacher left the room. Anyhow, I don't understand how apoppin can preach about 1 on 1 convos in PMs because you always seem to get the last word whenever you get called out... I'm not saying those who are insulting you are in the right for doing it publicly, but I do think that you are just as bad or worse than your "attackers" for posting your childish responses about tattling to the mods. Apoppin, why is it that you think you are getting so unpopular? Until I started reading R600 thread in video, I had no idea who you were. Now I honestly tend to just scroll over your posts because they always seem to be a backlash of what someone else has said to insult you or some *oddly* punctuated GARBAGE that only those who take the time to *pause* and try to decode it will understand... Apoppin, with how unpopular you are making yourself you should definitely try to back off a little. This was not meant to insult you, just to show you the point of view of someone who hasn't interacted with you until just recently.

/awaits apoppin's overly punctuated response about his entitlement to free speech and how my post was a personal attack and he is going to tell the mods