What's the best martial art for REAL self-defense?

[lyssword]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: lyssword

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: lyssword

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Also, in a 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 style fight I feel that speed is very important.

As I've said I feel confident I could take 2 guys of average person skill and my size without a problem. And I don't feel that Im extremely proficient at BJJ, but I do have a strong wrestling background.

The reason I can, and have, taken on 2 people at one time and been
successful is speed. If I'm able to attack one guy, throw him to the ground and move on to the next guy very quickly I can be successful. Granted, the first guy is going to get up and come back, but by the time he does the second guy will have been thrown to the ground or into a table or something else. There are plenty of ways to hurt someone in a quick period of time.

Also, the chance of getting jumped by 3 guys can be ameliorated with street smarts. Just travel in groups if possible, don't be tempted by shady "cut-through" allys, and generally watch your back, you'll most likely be fine. If it comes down to it though, check out this sh!t:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKjpdWyYMc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wOnMgxeSBw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wOnMgxeSBw

lol they are fighting him one at a time, doesn't look like they are trying. Thats one of scenarios this guy is talking about http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4838722756738846126&q=matt+thornton (thers another one but its a longer vid like in the middle or at the end of it he talks about this type of scenario. *hint, they are actors * lol that looks ridiculous

Right, its just an act. However, keep in mind if they one person was really fighting back he would seriously hurt his opponents each time, they wouldn't just roll right back up either.

Ok, Mr. Robocop Opponents would hurt him too, every time. Like Bruce Lee said, you can break a board, but the board doesn't punch you back

I guess we can agree to disagree, but I have experience on the subject. Judging from your comments, I would assume you have none.

Judging from my comments? I have put a lot of thought in my comments, unlike you, where by beating your 2 buddies (just a guess, and I can only assume they were not motivated enough) you think you can beat 3 determined ppl. Can you get another experienced fighter to agree that 3v1 is possible? I can get plenty that say 3v1 is not possible, unless a) you are 2 times bigger and 3 times stronger, even then.. b) they have no intention of hurting you

 

[lyssword]

Ok, here is a challenge: get 2 noobs of your weight at your BJJ school and grapple (simultaneously) them, see how easy it was. Considering they are not allowed to punch you in the head while you are busy with one, that should be easy, right?
Of course, if you pass that test, get one more for 3v1.

There IS a way to beat 3 people, using your strenghts Using the Spartak's (a gladiator/general in Roman empire times) technique: Sprint and let them chase you for xx meters, some of them will run faster than others, so you beat up the one who is the closest to you(quickly enough), while others are still running, then rinse and repeat

Ding, we have a winner, Cuda1447, everyone!

Have a nice day

 

[meltdown75]

This thread brings some strong nerd fight. I give it my stamp of approval!

 

[SoftwareEng]

You guys are forgetting: if you break one guy's arm or leg, the other may not be so eager to keep fighting! So unless they attack in a very coordinated manner, you need to take ONE guy out, and the second and maybe third will take off.

 

[thraashman]

I think obviously some of you don't know how effective even your least effective martial arts can be. I have a friend who has 2 black belts in TKD and he has taken on 3 bigger than him guys in a street fight style fight before. He barely got touched and he dropped them all. Even TKD has use of hands and speed, it's just better known for footwork. And someone who is good enough to have multiple black belts is going to be disciplined, fast, and tougher than your average person like him. When you realize that your average person does not have extensive fighting ability, you realize how easy it is for someone with some real skill to stop them.

Then again, I forgot how ATOT people know everything, have all taken 15 years of every martial art there is, have slept with 100+ women each, and can bench 4 times their own body weight.

 

[Kelnoen]

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: krunchykrome
Martial Arts won't do you any good in a street fight. What it comes down to is size, strength, and speed.

... and the martial art utilizing these 3 factors is...?

Have you ever taken any kind of martial arts? It's great to teach you discipline, but it won't do you any good if you get into a street fight.

so knowing the most effective way to strike, block, twist joints, distract your opponent by throwing something at him, does nothing for you?

No, it wont do anything in a fight. A puny 5'8 160lb guy will get crushed by a 6'5 250lb guy. Theres not much to argue there.

OMG, SNAPIT?????

Don't mess, he'll break you arm from your socket!!!

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: lyssword
Aikido? you gotta b fvckin kidding me. If it was so usefull as you guys think, they would dominate in UFC/pride, which is somewhat close to street fight. I haven't seen any aikido/karate ppl in ufc/pride, when you do, let me know.

Real Self-Defense was the topic. Not real offense. Aikido is a self-defense art as a finishing art to other styles.

As for weapons, a guy with a knife and knows how to use it usually wins. Cannot provide a link, but google video has a clip done in Germany on knives vs guns or unarmed. Very graphic at the end (open wounds on what may be dead people). I think you can find it with a search string of "karate knife gun" (no way to test it, blocked).

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng
You guys are forgetting: if you break one guy's arm or leg, the other may not be so eager to keep fighting! So unless they attack in a very coordinated manner, you need to take ONE guy out, and the second and maybe third will take off.

Also, there are some one on one scenarios. Back when I worked over the summer, I normally went to a specific Chipottle for lunch. Once, I went in and got my food as normal (takeout, I eat in my cubicle), came out and saw thig guy looking in the window of my car (2001 Sonic Blue Vovlvo S60). He had some typical hispanic gang marking, and I'd seen a few guys with similar markings in the Chipotle, but had simply avoided them. In any case, I walked around to where he could see me (maintaining a good 20 ft radisu) at which point I got the scariest glare I have ever seen (eyes open wide, like some sort of deranged wannabe hawk) As I was (and still am not yet) trained in any form of combat, I put my eyes to the ground a walked away laterally, keeping him in my peripheral vision. Luckily, he just got in his car and drove off. Didn't eat at that Chipotle for a long time.

Still, If he'd come out with a knife (or some of his buddies had come out) I 'd have been effectivly screwed (I was rather out of shape at the time).

 

[imported_vr6]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: krunchykrome
Martial Arts won't do you any good in a street fight. What it comes down to is size, strength, and speed.

... and the martial art utilizing these 3 factors is...?

Have you ever taken any kind of martial arts? It's great to teach you discipline, but it won't do you any good if you get into a street fight.

so knowing the most effective way to strike, block, twist joints, distract your opponent by throwing something at him, does nothing for you?

No, it wont do anything in a fight. A puny 5'8 160lb guy will get crushed by a 6'5 250lb guy. Theres not much to argue there.

Do you consider yourself an expert of some kind? If martial arts are useless then why do boxers even bother training? Why are military and police trained in these techniques?

Plus martial arts training will give you strength, and more importantly power in your strikes, which is not the same as strength, so that part of your argument is pointless. Can you punch through a concrete block? Many martial artists can, even small ones. I suggest you go along to a local martial arts club and test your theory - not on some kid who's been doing it for a few months, but a serious practitioner.

I did it for eight years. I also did a couple other forms of martial arts for another couple years. In my honest opinion, it doesnt mean sh*t.

But hey, thats just my opinion.

Well, that's incredible, you really believe you got nothing from 8 years of training? How could you go and fight every week for 8 years and not get any better at it? This honestly, totally, baffles me.

Thats because when he was taking it he was in elementary and middle school. Those 8 years of pre-puberty training is as advanced as playing with lego. Don't go around telling people you know what you are talking about and no i am not making it up.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: lyssword
Aikido? you gotta b fvckin kidding me. If it was so usefull as you guys think, they would dominate in UFC/pride, which is somewhat close to street fight. I haven't seen any aikido/karate ppl in ufc/pride, when you do, let me know.

Contrary to what many seem to think, UFC is not the be-all-and-end-all of fighting. If there were truly no rules, and the lives of the fighters were really in danger, the bouts would be over a lot quicker. UFC disallows strikes to many vital target which one would use in a 'real fight' - eyes, throat, groin. Also there is no submission in a 'real fight' - you do not put an arm lock on and wait for the opponent to give up, you just snap the arm straight away. Not to mention the referee.

 

[SoftwareEng]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: lyssword
Aikido? you gotta b fvckin kidding me. If it was so usefull as you guys think, they would dominate in UFC/pride, which is somewhat close to street fight. I haven't seen any aikido/karate ppl in ufc/pride, when you do, let me know.

Contrary to what many seem to think, UFC is not the be-all-and-end-all of fighting. If there were truly no rules, and the lives of the fighters were really in danger, the bouts would be over a lot quicker. UFC disallows strikes to many vital target which one would use in a 'real fight' - eyes, throat, groin. Also there is no submission in a 'real fight' - you do not put an arm lock on and wait for the opponent to give up, you just snap the arm straight away. Not to mention the referee.

If you manage to punch someone in the throat, you probably win the fight But there's something morally wrong with hitting the eyes... unless your life is in serious danger.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: lyssword
Aikido? you gotta b fvckin kidding me. If it was so usefull as you guys think, they would dominate in UFC/pride, which is somewhat close to street fight. I haven't seen any aikido/karate ppl in ufc/pride, when you do, let me know.

Contrary to what many seem to think, UFC is not the be-all-and-end-all of fighting. If there were truly no rules, and the lives of the fighters were really in danger, the bouts would be over a lot quicker. UFC disallows strikes to many vital target which one would use in a 'real fight' - eyes, throat, groin. Also there is no submission in a 'real fight' - you do not put an arm lock on and wait for the opponent to give up, you just snap the arm straight away. Not to mention the referee.

If you manage to punch someone in the throat, you probably win the fight But there's something morally wrong with hitting the eyes... unless your life is in serious danger.

The point of fighting, IMO, is to destroy the other person's defenses to attain a goal (robbery, murder, in some cases rep/pride). Your defenses are your body and your mind. If someone wants to deal with me, they can talk. If it comes down to a fight, I will break every rule and exploit every weakness to destroy them. Defeating the enemy lets them come at you again. Destroyiing them assures that they will never be able to come at you again. There is no honorable combat outside of sports., or unless the giht is in jest.

 

[brikis98]

there are many stories online of trained fighters wrecking groups of 3-4 muggers. even old dudes can do it which is a clear sign that size/strength/speed is not a tell-all in a fight:

* 67 year old former boxer fights off 3 muggers
* 70 year old fights off 4 muggers

you can find many such stories. claiming martial arts training doesn't help you in a fight is just ignorance. size/strength/speed help, obviously, but training and experience can overcome all of that.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: krunchykrome
Martial Arts won't do you any good in a street fight. What it comes down to is size, strength, and speed.

... and the martial art utilizing these 3 factors is...?

Have you ever taken any kind of martial arts? It's great to teach you discipline, but it won't do you any good if you get into a street fight.

so knowing the most effective way to strike, block, twist joints, distract your opponent by throwing something at him, does nothing for you?

No, it wont do anything in a fight. A puny 5'8 160lb guy will get crushed by a 6'5 250lb guy. Theres not much to argue there.

I'm 5-6 180 and would dismantle any normal 6-5 250 guy with my self defense training. The taller the better so their ankle/knee/crotch is in the perfect spot.

Bwhahahahaha


Yes you would

Considering I bench 285 (used to be 335 till my shoulder blew out on 225 incline reps) and deadlift 445, I'd say it's a wrap. I could already crush most normal (no fight training) guys >6ft, now that I know shorin-ryu and some basic bjj I'm fearless. I prefer to grapple since my favorite move is choking someone out, but also love aiming for crotch/knee/ankle since I'm shorter. I also work on handspeed for strikes with a half dumbbell (metal piece on the end of a handle), speed will trump even the best trained martial artists.

And we'll end this little squabble right here before one of us says something mean.
mmm kay?

It's ok, you've already made a fool out of yourself enough in this thread, no need to continue.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: thraashman
I think obviously some of you don't know how effective even your least effective martial arts can be. I have a friend who has 2 black belts in TKD and he has taken on 3 bigger than him guys in a street fight style fight before. He barely got touched and he dropped them all. Even TKD has use of hands and speed, it's just better known for footwork. And someone who is good enough to have multiple black belts is going to be disciplined, fast, and tougher than your average person like him. When you realize that your average person does not have extensive fighting ability, you realize how easy it is for someone with some real skill to stop them.

Then again, I forgot how ATOT people know everything, have all taken 15 years of every martial art there is, have slept with 100+ women each, and can bench 4 times their own body weight.

actually, i sleep with about 100 women each week. it's a nice racket

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: lyssword

Originally posted by: hiredgoons
On the contrary, my friend (who used to study at the school I linked before he moved out of the country) not only survived being jumped by 3 guys of similar size but put his attackers in the hospital. Discount this as internet bravado if you want, but while 3 against 1 is long odds, it's not impossible. Like you say, it's all about training methods. However, there are schools that teach more "traditional" martial arts and include tons of sparring, and they produce kick-ass students.

edit: replying to lyssword

Sure if you are a bigger guy, with good training you have some chance vs 3 determined/motivated guys. If you are equal strength/weight u will have almost no chance to take em out. Its better than nothing, you will be able to defend a few punches and run away

It's difficult, but not impossible. Again, size helps, but is not the deciding factor in such an encounter. The keys to engaging multiple opponents are to keep them in each others way and use quick incapacitations to reduce their numbers. If you drop a couple quick enough the remaining ones often stop, and even if they don't then the odds are better.

Problem is that you have to be both willing and able to inflict serious injury quickly for this to work. Most effective (in my opinion) is joint attacks to dislocate or break...especially the knees since you can then move out of their range. Almost as good are attacks to the eyes, and then the throat. People tend to defend these better, but they are usually instantly disabling if landed. If nothing else, take out their lead arm (wrist, elbow, or shoulder). It won't completely disable them, but most people aren't trained to use their offhand very well.

Be aware that these are DEFENSIVE tactics. This isn't what you use in a juvenile schoolyard brawl. These are serious injuries, and serious consequences could result. The only time it's acceptable is if there's no way out of the fight and you believe you're actually in grave danger. Like defensive firearm use you could still face legal issues afterwards...but it's better to be alive to face those consequences than the alternative.

 

[bobsmith1492]

Go for something real like karate, jiu-jitsu, kung-fu - no kickboxing or some crap like that...

 

[gsellis]

NSFW or Dinner - Graphic gore at the end with possibly dead folks with real knife wounds!

This is the video I referenced. Why a knife is deadly in the hands of a person who knows how to use it. I can attest to some of this as a fencer. An attack is extremely fast, you must maintain distance, and just the slightest form break is a kill many times.

Again, the last part of the video is gory. There is the BS words at the beginning too.

Google Video - Unarmed KNIFE DEFENSE is martial arts myth. This shows why...

 

[SoftwareEng]

Originally posted by: gsellis
NSFW or Dinner - Graphic gore at the end with possibly dead folks with real knife wounds!

This is the video I referenced. Why a knife is deadly in the hands of a person who knows how to use it. I can attest to some of this as a fencer. An attack is extremely fast, you must maintain distance, and just the slightest form break is a kill many times.

Again, the last part of the video is gory. There is the BS words at the beginning too.

Google Video - Unarmed KNIFE DEFENSE is martial arts myth. This shows why...

the problem is the cops tried to reach for the gun instead of jumping away or kicking the guy, or even stepping away! this only slowed them down. besides, had they even been trained in defense against a knife?

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: gsellis
NSFW or Dinner - Graphic gore at the end with possibly dead folks with real knife wounds!

This is the video I referenced. Why a knife is deadly in the hands of a person who knows how to use it. I can attest to some of this as a fencer. An attack is extremely fast, you must maintain distance, and just the slightest form break is a kill many times.

Again, the last part of the video is gory. There is the BS words at the beginning too.

Google Video - Unarmed KNIFE DEFENSE is martial arts myth. This shows why...

the problem is the cops tried to reach for the gun instead of jumping away or kicking the guy, or even stepping away! this only slowed them down. besides, had they even been trained in defense against a knife?

QFT. Also, I doubt the average gang member/street fighter has been trained in the use of a knife. That guy obviously knew what he was doing. Also, I just watched an episode of Cops where they subdued a guy with a knife hand to hand. Are those cops even American? Most of that video was in some other language.

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: gsellis
NSFW or Dinner - Graphic gore at the end with possibly dead folks with real knife wounds!

This is the video I referenced. Why a knife is deadly in the hands of a person who knows how to use it. I can attest to some of this as a fencer. An attack is extremely fast, you must maintain distance, and just the slightest form break is a kill many times.

Again, the last part of the video is gory. There is the BS words at the beginning too.

Google Video - Unarmed KNIFE DEFENSE is martial arts myth. This shows why...

the problem is the cops tried to reach for the gun instead of jumping away or kicking the guy, or even stepping away! this only slowed them down. besides, had they even been trained in defense against a knife?

They did it to show the gap was not sufficient to defend against a knife and just relie on having a gun. Normal combat tactics require maintaining distance before you counter. That was part of the video in the beginning with the 6 ft and the length of the weapon. They wanted to make sure that having a gun alone was not a deterrent. That is the major downfall of most folks with a gun or a knife. They think waving it around is enough. Being able to close the gap and then deploy whatever ready attack you have is how you successfully remove the threat (as the knife wielder shows on folks with a gun in the holster.) That is also how an unarmed person defends against a guy with a knife. It they wave it around and think the threat is whole deal, they can be defeated. This is the sign of an amateur with no or little training. Now, if they are always ready and trained in the weapon, you just get hurt or dead. Love to see those guys with fist grip on a knife. But a guy with a fencing grip, hand him your wallet.

 

[lyssword]

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: gsellis
NSFW or Dinner - Graphic gore at the end with possibly dead folks with real knife wounds!

This is the video I referenced. Why a knife is deadly in the hands of a person who knows how to use it. I can attest to some of this as a fencer. An attack is extremely fast, you must maintain distance, and just the slightest form break is a kill many times.

Again, the last part of the video is gory. There is the BS words at the beginning too.

Google Video - Unarmed KNIFE DEFENSE is martial arts myth. This shows why...

the problem is the cops tried to reach for the gun instead of jumping away or kicking the guy, or even stepping away! this only slowed them down. besides, had they even been trained in defense against a knife?

QFT. Also, I doubt the average gang member/street fighter has been trained in the use of a knife. That guy obviously knew what he was doing. Also, I just watched an episode of Cops where they subdued a guy with a knife hand to hand. Are those cops even American? Most of that video was in some other language.

HAVE you seen the end of the video? It says 3 VERY good champion fighters got killed by some random drunks with a knife in a bar/whatever.

From black belt magazine: there was an awesome black belt demonstrator showing how to disarm a samurai sword. He said he knows a secret techniques taught by an uber master of some kind trained to disarm weapons. He was throwing his students left and right impressing the crowd.

Then a spectator comes out and says: my ancestors were samurais, then I should be no problem? He then pulled out a knife and the instructor got so scared he literally pissed his pants.

 

[SoftwareEng]

Originally posted by: lyssword

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: gsellis
NSFW or Dinner - Graphic gore at the end with possibly dead folks with real knife wounds!

This is the video I referenced. Why a knife is deadly in the hands of a person who knows how to use it. I can attest to some of this as a fencer. An attack is extremely fast, you must maintain distance, and just the slightest form break is a kill many times.

Again, the last part of the video is gory. There is the BS words at the beginning too.

Google Video - Unarmed KNIFE DEFENSE is martial arts myth. This shows why...

the problem is the cops tried to reach for the gun instead of jumping away or kicking the guy, or even stepping away! this only slowed them down. besides, had they even been trained in defense against a knife?

QFT. Also, I doubt the average gang member/street fighter has been trained in the use of a knife. That guy obviously knew what he was doing. Also, I just watched an episode of Cops where they subdued a guy with a knife hand to hand. Are those cops even American? Most of that video was in some other language.

HAVE you seen the end of the video? It says 3 VERY good champion fighters got killed by some random drunks with a knife in a bar/whatever.

From black belt magazine: there was an awesome black belt demonstrator showing how to disarm a samurai sword. He said he knows a secret techniques taught by an uber master of some kind trained to disarm weapons. He was throwing his students left and right impressing the crowd.

Then a spectator comes out and says: my ancestors were samurais, then I should be no problem? He then pulled out a knife and the instructor got so scared he literally pissed his pants.

true, but professional race drivers get into accidents; professional snipers get sniped during wars, and expert PC builders sometimes build defective PCs. It's the majority of their success that matters, not a few bad acts...

besides, in many cases you will be THREATENED with a knife, not immediately attacked with it.

 

[patentman]

Anything with ground fighting in it; krav maga (sp?) or Hap Kido in particular. If you can find a kung fu school that does sparring (relatively hard to find in the U.S.) that is effective as well.

My Kung Fu instructor (who was a grandmaster of Hap Kido, Tai Kwon Do and Kung Fu) said that for self defense, you need to know 2-5 moves and how to apply them in every situation. Learning a lot of fancy stuff won't help you in a fight if you can't apply it almost instinctually. Thus, when he taught self defense, we learned 3 moves:

1. A wrist takedown that is effective against all small handheld weapons and punches (essentially it consists of a block and writst takedown) and which results in minimal damage to your opponent

2. An incapacitating combination of block and punch to the sternum/solar plexus that if executed correctly will drop just about any attacker in one shot.

3. The ever popular groin assault (there is no such thing as a fair fight, there are fights you win, and fights you lose. Fight to win... always). This is effective in general, but particularly so when dealing with an opponent who kicks and does not know how to protect his groin properly.

 

[IEC]

Hiten Mitsurugi Style: Do Ryu Sen!!!