Whatever happened to "fight or flight"?

[slimrhcp]

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: slimrhcp

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
I'd rather die fighting - worst case scenario, I get shot to death struggling for his gun, he's wasted a few precious rounds and a good chunk of time, during which some people might be able to run away, or swarm him and bash his head in with whatever is handy.

My wife never likes to hear it, but she knows that I'd rather die fighting to save a life than passively give up my own.

And who knows. Some day someone might call my bluff, and I won't be here to say "I told you so."

But I'd rather be remembered like that.

- M4H

Once again I completely agree with M4H. The voice of reason at ATOT.

Yea.... my hero :roll:

The complient outlook is the reason why he was able to succeed in causing so many deaths. I refuse to believe a lone gunman couldn't have been disarmed by a crowd especially when he was actually entering the classrooms. There have been accounts of school shootings where the attacker was tackled and subdued by his would-be victims. Like M4H said, worst case would be getting shot which is a likely scenario anyway.

 

[Farang]

Originally posted by: slimrhcp

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: slimrhcp

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
I'd rather die fighting - worst case scenario, I get shot to death struggling for his gun, he's wasted a few precious rounds and a good chunk of time, during which some people might be able to run away, or swarm him and bash his head in with whatever is handy.

My wife never likes to hear it, but she knows that I'd rather die fighting to save a life than passively give up my own.

And who knows. Some day someone might call my bluff, and I won't be here to say "I told you so."

But I'd rather be remembered like that.

- M4H

Once again I completely agree with M4H. The voice of reason at ATOT.

Yea.... my hero :roll:

The complient outlook is the reason why he was able to succeed in causing so many deaths. I refuse to believe a lone gunman couldn't have been disarmed by a crowd especially when he was actually entering the classrooms. There have been accounts of school shootings where the attacker was tackled and subdued by his would-be victims. Like M4H said, worst case would be getting shot which is a likely scenario anyway.

M4H is full of himself with the 'My wife doesn't like it.. but I'm too much of a man to do anything other than kick ass or die trying' line. And the situations where they get tackled are in cafeterias or other situations where PEOPLE ARE AT THEIR BACK.

Quite simply, you were not there and have no idea what attempts were made. Furthermore, as has been described countless times in this post and elsewhere, the set-up of a college classroom and the way in which the shootings were carried out made it so a resistance (aside from barricading the doors) was simply impossible.

I am shocked at the stupidity I am seeing in this thread. I mean just use your fscking head for a minute and stop trying to act like the armchair hero.

 

[meltdown75]

Wow no shocker that the denizens of ATOT would save the world and all those around them.

Please, give me a break.

By the way, RIP to those that died. I'm just a little annoyed by the early analysis on this stuff when the blood has barely dried.

Frickin' internet pontification. bah! The virtual modern day pull-string dolls known as internet forums. My magic 8-ball held more wisdom.

 

[XMan]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd post some of the weird factoids that have been cropping up in this story.

The whole Ismail Ax thing on his army, as well as the A. Ishmael return address, that's all old news.

But apparently Cho's dad worked in Saudi Arabia for ten years. Source

CNN reported Cho rented a car in March to go to Roanoke, which is where he obtained the guns. He also supposedly spent a night in a motel, which is where they believe he took most of the pictures and video.

Which brings the question - where did he get the money for all this? He rented a car for at least a week or two, bought two handguns, spent a night in a hotel room . . . for a guy who railed against rich people, he sure seemed to have either disposable cash or a credit card with a decent limit on it.

Also, the pictures. Maybe it's just me but everytime I've tried to take pictures of myself using a timer I never get positioned exactly where I need to be. Did Cho have an accomplice who took the pictures and video, maybe?

I have the distinct feelng this situation is going to get far weirder before it's over with.

And for those who think it was because he was bullied - this pretty much says it all. It's from the NY Times.

Ross Alameddine sat a few feet from Mr. Cho for months in a class examining contemporary horror films and literature. Both students were required to keep what were known as ?fear journals,? where they chronicled both their reaction to the material covered in class and their own fears.
Mr. Alameddine, according to classmates, made an effort to speak to Mr. Cho on several occasions, trying to draw him out of his closed world and his refusal to interact with other students.
On Monday, Mr. Cho shot and killed Mr. Alameddine.

 

[SpanishFry]

Originally posted by: XMan
Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd post some of the weird factoids that have been cropping up in this story.

The whole Ismail Ax thing on his army, as well as the A. Ishmael return address, that's all old news.

But apparently Cho's dad worked in Saudi Arabia for ten years. Source

CNN reported Cho rented a car in March to go to Roanoke, which is where he obtained the guns. He also supposedly spent a night in a motel, which is where they believe he took most of the pictures and video.

Which brings the question - where did he get the money for all this? He rented a car for at least a week or two, bought two handguns, spent a night in a hotel room . . . for a guy who railed against rich people, he sure seemed to have either disposable cash or a credit card with a decent limit on it.

Also, the pictures. Maybe it's just me but everytime I've tried to take pictures of myself using a timer I never get positioned exactly where I need to be. Did Cho have an accomplice who took the pictures and video, maybe?

I have the distinct feelng this situation is going to get far weirder before it's over with.

And for those who think it was because he was bullied - this pretty much says it all. It's from the NY Times.

Ross Alameddine sat a few feet from Mr. Cho for months in a class examining contemporary horror films and literature. Both students were required to keep what were known as ?fear journals,? where they chronicled both their reaction to the material covered in class and their own fears.
Mr. Alameddine, according to classmates, made an effort to speak to Mr. Cho on several occasions, trying to draw him out of his closed world and his refusal to interact with other students.
On Monday, Mr. Cho shot and killed Mr. Alameddine.

That last section is chilling.

 

[Phokus]

http://images.somethingawful.com/insert...shop/05-21-04-magazines/dorquemada.jpg

you may think that you'd be 'mr. rambo' and try to rush the shooter, but until you are in that situation, you have no idea how your mind and body will react. I imagine the stress and shock must be enormous.

 

[EagleKeeper]

A pistol/revolver is only accurate at 15-20 max.

Targeting & hitting a moving target at that range is not easy.

When you spray (with an auto/semi-auto) there is a kickback that makes accuracy close to impossible. One has to fire in a 2-3 round burst mode.

Had 2-3 people made the decision to not go down lightly, they could have as a group reached the shooter. They would have been some shots taken as a group; however, a good chance existed that not all three people would have been dropped.

When people freeze up, all advantage is lost and then it becomes a matter of the thought that it can not happen to me syndrome that lets then easily be controlled.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: JS80
that israeli professor had the idea. people nowadays don't understand self sacrifice for the betterment of their fellow man. too much to lose.

altruism is a rarely inherited trait in the human genome. ...for obvious reasons

In his case, though, he was 75, and had long passed on those genes, if in fact he did. Not only that, the man was a Holocaust survivor. Like Dennis Miller said, this is a guy who knew what true evil looked like, he had stared it in the face as a child, and he knew exactly what was going on when that psychopath walked into his classroom. He knew there was only one option.

I hope he is awarded the highest honor that this country can bestow on a civilian.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
A pistol/revolver is only accurate at 15-20 max.

Targeting & hitting a moving target at that range is not easy.

When you spray (with an auto/semi-auto) there is a kickback that makes accuracy close to impossible. One has to fire in a 2-3 round burst mode.

Had 2-3 people made the decision to not go down lightly, they could have as a group reached the shooter. They would have been some shots taken as a group; however, a good chance existed that not all three people would have been dropped.

When people freeze up, all advantage is lost and then it becomes a matter of the thought that it can not happen to me syndrome that lets then easily be controlled.

That is not correct. For example, the max effective range for a NORINCO Type 54 has a max effective range of 50m. Same for the Browning M9. If a group of three could have reached the shooter depends on the shooter's accuracy and shot placement. There would be a good chance that all three people would go down, depending on their starting distance.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
A pistol/revolver is only accurate at 15-20 max.

Targeting & hitting a moving target at that range is not easy.

When you spray (with an auto/semi-auto) there is a kickback that makes accuracy close to impossible. One has to fire in a 2-3 round burst mode.

Had 2-3 people made the decision to not go down lightly, they could have as a group reached the shooter. They would have been some shots taken as a group; however, a good chance existed that not all three people would have been dropped.

When people freeze up, all advantage is lost and then it becomes a matter of the thought that it can not happen to me syndrome that lets then easily be controlled.

That is not correct. For example, the max effective range for a NORINCO Type 54 has a max effective range of 50m. Same for the Browning M9. If a group of three could have reached the shooter depends on the shooter's accuracy and shot placement. There would be a good chance that all three people would go down, depending on their starting distance.

The guy bought his guns in Mid-March. I don't see any conceivable way he could be highly accurate at long distances unless he was previously familiar with firearms - and there have been no reports to that effect AFAIK. I don't think it's possible to learn to shoot at a high level in just over a month unless you're undergoing military training of some sort.

 

[jtvang125]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
A pistol/revolver is only accurate at 15-20 max.

Targeting & hitting a moving target at that range is not easy.

When you spray (with an auto/semi-auto) there is a kickback that makes accuracy close to impossible. One has to fire in a 2-3 round burst mode.

Had 2-3 people made the decision to not go down lightly, they could have as a group reached the shooter. They would have been some shots taken as a group; however, a good chance existed that not all three people would have been dropped.

When people freeze up, all advantage is lost and then it becomes a matter of the thought that it can not happen to me syndrome that lets then easily be controlled.

That is not correct. For example, the max effective range for a NORINCO Type 54 has a max effective range of 50m. Same for the Browning M9. If a group of three could have reached the shooter depends on the shooter's accuracy and shot placement. There would be a good chance that all three people would go down, depending on their starting distance.

The guy bought his guns in Mid-March. I don't see any conceivable way he could be highly accurate at long distances unless he was previously familiar with firearms - and there have been no reports to that effect AFAIK. I don't think it's possible to learn to shoot at a high level in just over a month unless you're undergoing military training of some sort.

You don't need to be accurate at long range since these were college classrooms he was shooting in. Basically point blank on most of his shots. If he was shooting student running down a long hall then yes but in these classrooms all he had to do was point and shoot. Very little aiming needed at all.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Statistics and real world are two different things.
Single shot vs a 3 round burst vs full spray affect accuracy.
Adrenalin and attitude/experience

The fact is that had some of the students at the very beginning attempted a coordinated assault, there is a chance that the shooter would have been taken down.

Waiting until the fear factor kicks in, flips the equation in the shooters favor.
It was lambs to the slaughter.

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
i didn't read that part anywhere in the news articles i read. does someone have a link to where they get lined up and shot?

havent read that anywhere.

All the accopunts i read/heard was...

Sick dude started shooting in the hall....people look out the door...panic.

Try to barricade door...sick dude comes in door..IMMEDIATELY shoots teacher and then (walks through rows), shoots everyone multiple times.

So..tell me what you want to do ?

Jumping up and "confront" the guy with two guns while he is shooting rapidly ? Confront with your bare hands ?

Sadly..the ONLY strategy (which some did) is to dive under some tables and play death. Or..maybe...head to a window and jump.

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: slimrhcp

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: slimrhcp

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
I'd rather die fighting - worst case scenario, I get shot to death struggling for his gun, he's wasted a few precious rounds and a good chunk of time, during which some people might be able to run away, or swarm him and bash his head in with whatever is handy.

My wife never likes to hear it, but she knows that I'd rather die fighting to save a life than passively give up my own.

And who knows. Some day someone might call my bluff, and I won't be here to say "I told you so."

But I'd rather be remembered like that.

- M4H

Once again I completely agree with M4H. The voice of reason at ATOT.

Yea.... my hero :roll:

The complient outlook is the reason why he was able to succeed in causing so many deaths. I refuse to believe a lone gunman couldn't have been disarmed by a crowd especially when he was actually entering the classrooms. There have been accounts of school shootings where the attacker was tackled and subdued by his would-be victims. Like M4H said, worst case would be getting shot which is a likely scenario anyway.

M4H is full of himself with the 'My wife doesn't like it.. but I'm too much of a man to do anything other than kick ass or die trying' line. And the situations where they get tackled are in cafeterias or other situations where PEOPLE ARE AT THEIR BACK.

Quite simply, you were not there and have no idea what attempts were made. Furthermore, as has been described countless times in this post and elsewhere, the set-up of a college classroom and the way in which the shootings were carried out made it so a resistance (aside from barricading the doors) was simply impossible.

I am shocked at the stupidity I am seeing in this thread. I mean just use your fscking head for a minute and stop trying to act like the armchair hero.

wait....there HAVE been attempts of people running towards him, trying to tackle him, AS FAR AS I REMEMBER reading. People trying to protect others. They all got shot.

 

[GoingUp]

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
I'd rather die fighting - worst case scenario, I get shot to death struggling for his gun, he's wasted a few precious rounds and a good chunk of time, during which some people might be able to run away, or swarm him and bash his head in with whatever is handy.

My wife never likes to hear it, but she knows that I'd rather die fighting to save a life than passively give up my own.

And who knows. Some day someone might call my bluff, and I won't be here to say "I told you so."

But I'd rather be remembered like that.

- M4H

I feel exactly the same way.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: flexy

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: slimrhcp

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: slimrhcp

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
I'd rather die fighting - worst case scenario, I get shot to death struggling for his gun, he's wasted a few precious rounds and a good chunk of time, during which some people might be able to run away, or swarm him and bash his head in with whatever is handy.

My wife never likes to hear it, but she knows that I'd rather die fighting to save a life than passively give up my own.

And who knows. Some day someone might call my bluff, and I won't be here to say "I told you so."

But I'd rather be remembered like that.

- M4H

Once again I completely agree with M4H. The voice of reason at ATOT.

Yea.... my hero :roll:

The complient outlook is the reason why he was able to succeed in causing so many deaths. I refuse to believe a lone gunman couldn't have been disarmed by a crowd especially when he was actually entering the classrooms. There have been accounts of school shootings where the attacker was tackled and subdued by his would-be victims. Like M4H said, worst case would be getting shot which is a likely scenario anyway.

M4H is full of himself with the 'My wife doesn't like it.. but I'm too much of a man to do anything other than kick ass or die trying' line. And the situations where they get tackled are in cafeterias or other situations where PEOPLE ARE AT THEIR BACK.

Quite simply, you were not there and have no idea what attempts were made. Furthermore, as has been described countless times in this post and elsewhere, the set-up of a college classroom and the way in which the shootings were carried out made it so a resistance (aside from barricading the doors) was simply impossible.

I am shocked at the stupidity I am seeing in this thread. I mean just use your fscking head for a minute and stop trying to act like the armchair hero.

wait....there HAVE been attempts of people running towards him, trying to tackle him, AS FAR AS I REMEMBER reading. People trying to protect others. They all got shot.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/us/22...7819200&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

Doesn't sound like anybody did anything like that in the NYT article.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: XMan
I can understand running when he's coming down the hall or whatever, but when he came into the classroom and made people lineup, that's what blows me away.

None of the girls had pepper spray in their purses?

Shoot, you throw a cell phone at somebody hard enough, it will make them flinch away at the very least. I know hindsight is 20/20, and we weren't there, but I've been shot at before . . . everything kinda slows down, except for your thinking.

Hat tip to the professor who blocked off the door so his kids could away. Text

Someone going into their purse or pocket is probably going to be shot. Getting hit with pepper spray or a phone while armed is not going to incapacitate him. Also the phone or whatever you throw is not going to be instant...chances are he can side-step it.

Most people were probably figuring he'd run out of bullets or someone would come to stop him before their number was up.

 

[exdeath]

For those saying "I don't know what I would do in that situation..."

Next time you find yourself sitting in class, on the bus, whatever; take a look around at your surroundings and figure that out while you have that luxury.

 

[Tarrant64]

Well, here's a similar argument as to why people didn't step in when this lady got beat up by a drunk cop at a bar. I think one person stepped in but it wasn't enough. I couldn't believe this...

http://www.wnbc.com/news/11328275/detail.html

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: flexy

Originally posted by: maddogchen
i didn't read that part anywhere in the news articles i read. does someone have a link to where they get lined up and shot?

havent read that anywhere.

All the accopunts i read/heard was...

Sick dude started shooting in the hall....people look out the door...panic.

Try to barricade door...sick dude comes in door..IMMEDIATELY shoots teacher and then (walks through rows), shoots everyone multiple times.

So..tell me what you want to do ?

Jumping up and "confront" the guy with two guns while he is shooting rapidly ? Confront with your bare hands ?

Sadly..the ONLY strategy (which some did) is to dive under some tables and play death. Or..maybe...head to a window and jump.

Yes, you ARE supposed to go after him with your bare hands.

 

[compuwiz1]

I had the same thoughts in a thread I created about a week ago. It does no good to think this now, since we are past the horrible incident. You just have to chalk it up to the fact these kids were probably frozen in shock and fear, and since we weren't there, we can't know the true experience. Unless you have military or police training on overcoming someone like the attacker, there was probably no way for the students to believe they could overcome the killer.

 

[AgentJean]

Originally posted by: JS80
that israeli professor had the idea. people nowadays don't understand self sacrifice for the betterment of their fellow man. too much to lose.

He was a holocaust survivor. He knew first hand what happens when people do not take action.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Unless you have military or police training on overcoming someone like the attacker, there was probably no way for the students to believe they could overcome the killer.

This is irrelevant. They SHOULD have gone down fighting instead of being lines up and slaughtered like sheet. Their actions defied both logic and common sense.

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Unless you have military or police training on overcoming someone like the attacker, there was probably no way for the students to believe they could overcome the killer.

This is irrelevant. They SHOULD have gone down fighting instead of being lines up and slaughtered like sheet. Their actions defied both logic and common sense.

Why be critical now? Nothing we can do to bring them back, and it's all 20-20 hindsight. It's a coulda shoulda woulda..........

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Unless you have military or police training on overcoming someone like the attacker, there was probably no way for the students to believe they could overcome the killer.

This is irrelevant. They SHOULD have gone down fighting instead of being lines up and slaughtered like sheet. Their actions defied both logic and common sense.

Why be critical now? Nothing we can do to bring them back, and it's all 20-20 hindsight. It's a coulda shoulda woulda..........

As a society we must question what happened. Is this the direction we want to head in?

A somewhat similar situation is what happened with hijackings pre and post 9/11. Prior to that passengers did not resist as their lives were rarely in great danger. Now days it is reasonable to assume that a large percentage of passengers would resist a hijacking.

We must ask what this means to our society. Has the fight or flight instict been bread out of a large percentage of the population? What are the benefits and/or drawbacks?