Whatever happened to "fight or flight"?

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
I'm pretty sure that if he's lined up 20 of your classmates and shot 5 in the head already, you know you're doomed.

From what I've read about the incident, it doesn't sound like this guy walked into a room, calmly lined everyone up, and started shooting them one at a time. More like he was wandering the building and just spraying bullets at anyone he saw.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html

"What went on during that incident certainly caused tremendous chaos and panic in Norris Hall," Flaherty said, describing how victims were found in four classrooms and in the stairwell of the school's engineering science and mechanics building.

"There wasn't a shooting victim that didn't have less than three bullet wounds in them," said Dr. Joseph Cacioppo of Montgomery Regional Hospital.

Zach Petkewicz was in class when the shooting at Norris began and "everyone went into a frenzy, a panic." Petkewicz was hiding behind a podium when he realized there was nothing preventing the shooter from entering the classroom and barked to his classmates, "We need to barricade this door."

Two students joined him in throwing tables against the door and wedging their weight behind them, just as the gunman cracked open the door.

When the students slammed the door in his face, "he backed up and shot twice into the middle of the door thinking we were up against it," Petkewicz said.

"I was up against the side holding this desk up against there and I just heard his clip drop to the ground and he reloaded, and I thought he was coming back for a second round, to try and get his way in there," he said. "He didn't say a word, and he just turned and kept firing down the hall and didn't try to get back in."

I'd like to think that if someone was lining people up and shooting them execution-style, at least some of them would fight back. I don't think I would just stand there and watch people get shot (especially if I'm next), but I've also never been in a situation like that.

But a crazy guy walking into a room and just opening fire? Unless you make a snap decision to rush him and catch him off-guard, I don't really know what you could do except run for it or take cover.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
I'm pretty sure that if he's lined up 20 of your classmates and shot 5 in the head already, you know you're doomed.

At this point no one knows exactly what happened but other than some early speculation, it appears that this is not how it went down. It's pretty easy to question the inaction of the students when making a flawed assumption.

Assuming, the gunman walked into a classroom and began shooting (the most likely scenario), what could you do, other than to try and not get shot?

 

[djheater]

Much has been made of the Israeli professor's sacrifice (as it should be). I wonder if he was able to act in the way he did because of prior military experience, I believe Israel requires mandatory service of its citizens?

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: joshsquall
I'm pretty sure that if he's lined up 20 of your classmates and shot 5 in the head already, you know you're doomed.

From what I've read about the incident, it doesn't sound like this guy walked into a room, calmly lined everyone up, and started shooting them one at a time. More like he was wandering the building and just spraying bullets at anyone he saw.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html

"What went on during that incident certainly caused tremendous chaos and panic in Norris Hall," Flaherty said, describing how victims were found in four classrooms and in the stairwell of the school's engineering science and mechanics building.

"There wasn't a shooting victim that didn't have less than three bullet wounds in them," said Dr. Joseph Cacioppo of Montgomery Regional Hospital.

Zach Petkewicz was in class when the shooting at Norris began and "everyone went into a frenzy, a panic." Petkewicz was hiding behind a podium when he realized there was nothing preventing the shooter from entering the classroom and barked to his classmates, "We need to barricade this door."

Two students joined him in throwing tables against the door and wedging their weight behind them, just as the gunman cracked open the door.

When the students slammed the door in his face, "he backed up and shot twice into the middle of the door thinking we were up against it," Petkewicz said.

"I was up against the side holding this desk up against there and I just heard his clip drop to the ground and he reloaded, and I thought he was coming back for a second round, to try and get his way in there," he said. "He didn't say a word, and he just turned and kept firing down the hall and didn't try to get back in."

I'd like to think that if someone was lining people up and shooting them execution-style, at least some of them would fight back. I don't think I would just stand there and watch people get shot (especially if I'm next), but I've also never been in a situation like that.

But a crazy guy walking into a room and just opening fire? Unless you make a snap decision to rush him and catch him off-guard, I don't really know what you could do except run for it or take cover.

I think when you get lined up for execution, your thoughts are "Please don't shoot me, shoot 15 other people but leave a few of us here and hope that the few standing include me." Then there's the "OMG this is it, sniff sniff" reaction. I think there's a lot going on through your head. There's also the "Please I don't want to die just yet" thoughts.

To decide to kick some @$$ you actually need some time to think it over. You need to have your plan of kicking his @$$ and moreoever you need to decide that you want to do it. Your instant reaction isn't to be a hero, but rather when you come to your senses that you ARE going to die and the only way to not die is to do something, then you will try to do something. And even when you realize that the only way out is to kick some ass, you need to formulate your plan to kick some ass.

Like someone said, it's easy to be an armchair quarterback in this situation. If the guy pulled a knife like in 9/11 I'm sure there would be MORE THAN A HANDFUL of people who are going to jump him and slaughter him. When people have a gun, it's a total different situation (refers to last week's episode of 24 when Fayed ran out of bullets in the bar)

 

[Alone]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: merlocka
No one knows what they would do when faced with that type of situation. It's great to assume you would go ninja on the perp, but I feel the reality would be otherwise.

I'm 100% certain what I would do in such a situation. There really isn't a choice when it comes to dying for nothing and dying for everything.

BS. Unless you have been in a life or death situation you don't know how you'll act. You can think rationally and lay out all your options when you are nice a cozy behind a computer, but you can't when you're actually in the middle of a hellstorm. The only way to know how you'll act is to be made to act.

I have been in a life or death situation and I acted logically and as a result, I'm still here.

So don't go spouting off about what people are or aren't capable of. We all have the basic instinct to survive, and laying down with a gun to your head isn't it.

 

[spidey07]

I think a lot of it has to to with the pussification of america and coddling the kids.

No dodgeball, no johnny got his feeling hurt, etc.

When faced with the actual possibility that something bad can happen, they just froze. Unable to use their given strengths and confidence that have been weaned away from them in school.

 

[jdini76]

We don't really know what happened in those classrooms. Students could have tried to stop him and failed.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: spidey07
I think a lot of it has to to with the pussification of america and coddling the kids.

No dodgeball, no johnny got his feeling hurt, etc.

When faced with the actual possibility that something bad can happen, they just froze. Unable to use their given strengths and confidence that have been weaned away from them in school.

I assume you are experienced in cases where you are about to be murdered?

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: merlocka
No one knows what they would do when faced with that type of situation. It's great to assume you would go ninja on the perp, but I feel the reality would be otherwise.

I'm 100% certain what I would do in such a situation. There really isn't a choice when it comes to dying for nothing and dying for everything.

BS. Unless you have been in a life or death situation you don't know how you'll act. You can think rationally and lay out all your options when you are nice a cozy behind a computer, but you can't when you're actually in the middle of a hellstorm. The only way to know how you'll act is to be made to act.

I have been in a life or death situation and I acted logically and as a result, I'm still here.

So don't go spouting off about what people are or aren't capable of. We all have the basic instinct to survive, and laying down with a gun to your head isn't it.

Alright big guy, good job. You are a man's man.

 

[49erinnc]

I'd like to think my basic survival instincts would kick it but it's impossible to know how you'd react without actually being in the situation.

But I guess it would come down to how it played out. If the guy just comes in the room and starts firing, there's little you can do. But if he actually had everyone line up, I'd like to think that before he got to me, I'd have the balls to pounce. And I'd hope like hell that in doing so, at least one other person would back me up.

With that said, I can also see where if I were a young kid, standing in a line and seeing my classmates get killed one by one, that I'd go in total freeze mode/shock and unable to do anything.

It's just so easy to say what we'd do while sitting here on our computers after the fact.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: spidey07
I think a lot of it has to to with the pussification of america and coddling the kids.

No dodgeball, no johnny got his feeling hurt, etc.

When faced with the actual possibility that something bad can happen, they just froze. Unable to use their given strengths and confidence that have been weaned away from them in school.

Partially agreed. The real cause, IMO is simply psychology.

When you are confronted with said situation, the "fight or flight" response kicks in. Now, unless you actually know and are trained in how to subdue him, fighting is deemed as rather pointless. So people run. However, in a classroom there is nowhere to run. The brain gets confused.

On instinct, one should lash out like a cornered animal, but society focuses on suppressing many of our instincts (ie no dodgeball) and thus only those who are trained or have great presence of mind are able to react at all.

 

[hdeck]

Originally posted by: 49erinnc
I'd like to think my basic survival instincts would kick it but it's impossible to know how you'd react without actually being in the situation.

my thoughts exactly.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: XMan
One of the things I just can't wrap my head around is the fact that nobody seemed to fight back. According to the news reports, people in one of the classrooms just let themselves be lined up against the wall and be shot . . .

You would think that at least one person would have thought - do nothing, die for certain. Do something, maybe live. Throw a textbook at the guy, or a chair, or something.

I dunno. The whole deal is screwed up. But it's just really depressing that everybody just sat there and let it happen. Somebody I was talking to compared it to the Kitty Genovese incident, and in some ways its similar, but I would think that if it were actually happening to you, you would be more likely to do something.

Bystander syndrome

I think you're completely out of your mind here. I dont know where you read that they were lined up, I've heard quite the opposite.

I'm pretty sure I'm not bulletproof, so my first instinct is to run. In a closed classroom, nowhere to run.

I could lunge at him, but that would 100% get his attention and almost definitely get me shot unless I'm behind him.

You are forgetting this is not a fair fight. You vs. a guy with 2 guns on a rampage is equivalent to you vs. a bear, and I dont care how long your cape is, you're not taking on a grizzly and coming out alive. You run and hide or you die.

The best thing to do in the situation, and the one that actually worked for that one girl, was to play dead. You cant run, you can't fight, so you hide in plain sight.

It's not a matter of training. Training will not make you bulletproof, negotiation wasnt an option, so wtf do you expect people to do?

 

[msnbcnnbcbs]

These kids are getting into their early 20's and they

1. Don't know how to handle a firearm safely

2. Don't know how to disarm one if they had to

and most troubling of all...

3. Don't even know what a gunshot sounds like

Kids were saying they thought the noises were from construction equipment.

Whether you're pro-2nd amendment or not, these skills are absolutely essential within a society like ours.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: spidey07
I think a lot of it has to to with the pussification of america and coddling the kids.

No dodgeball, no johnny got his feeling hurt, etc.

When faced with the actual possibility that something bad can happen, they just froze. Unable to use their given strengths and confidence that have been weaned away from them in school.

Partially agreed. The real cause, IMO is simply psychology.

When you are confronted with said situation, the "fight or flight" response kicks in. Now, unless you actually know and are trained in how to subdue him, fighting is deemed as rather pointless. So people run. However, in a classroom there is nowhere to run. The brain gets confused.

On instinct, one should lash out like a cornered animal, but society focuses on suppressing many of our instincts (ie no dodgeball) and thus only those who are trained or have great presence of mind are able to react at all.

But this isnt a case of a cornered animal. Its more like a herd being attacked. There is NO QUESTION a herd of stampeding buffalo could obliterate a pack of wolves if they all banded together and took them on. But thats nearly certain death for those who lead the charge, and any individual has a much likelier chance of survival by just running with everyone else, and hope theyre not the ones shot.

It's a perfectly rational thing to do. In a closed classroom, the fact that you cant run completely screws you up, but you're having a fantasy if you think it has anything to do with a suppression of our instincts.

I cant think of a more core instinct than "If a guy has a gun, and you don't, get as far away or as well hidden as possible".

 

[T9D]

I understand not being able to do anything when he first busts in and starts shooting fast.

But for those who had some warning like the Professor who kept the door shut. I mean not a single Student thought 'hey I should help him!'. He's a 76 year old man. But everyone just ran. Granted they are young adults that dont have lifes experience. But still everyone just ran and left him. With even one more young guy helping the shooter may not have gotten in at all.

And after he left the classroom and they heard him down the hallway shooting their fellow schoolmates no one thought about the other kids there? Someone could have grabbed a table leg and come up behind him or something. I mean something. Everyone just ran thinking of themselves except that professor.

I'm not saying everyone should have or could have. I'm just surprised I guess that except for one teacher everyone else seems to be on run save your own life mode. Almost as if with blinders on.

Please dont think I'm being critical of anyone though. They went through a tragedy and it was horrifying. I'm just trying to understand the situation like anyone else. Maybe I would like to have more hope and see more of something redeeming come out of a terrible situation aside from the one horoic Teacher.

 

[UDT89]

Originally posted by: fallenangel99
Yeah you can talk all you want, but I guarantee you , if you were in that situation, you would not do anything. Few people are brave to do something in that kind of situation.

your first statement is wrong. ive been in weird situations and i always react. but people like me are few and far between.

 

[xanis]

Most people's minds can't snap into action that quickly. I imagine it would be pretty hard to think straight as a civilian witnessing cold-blooded murders.

 

[DBL]

Forget bystanders syndrome, it sounds like 1/2 the posters in here have a Rambo complex.

 

[Syringer]

There are studies on this, as to what nerves/anxiety and the threat to your life will do to your mind and how you will react.

If you're completely panicky, and your pulse starts racing at an unbearable speed, you will end up frozen and unable to logically process any thought.

If however, you're in a certain zone, things will become much more clear, and things even start to slow down a little bit as if you have spider senses (insert spider joke here).

This only comes with training/practice, which is what military and police training do, it prepares oneself for life/death situations by putting them in that stage. Now it's unlikely any of those kids had any sort of experience in that situation, and so unfortunately fell into the former category.

 

[K1052]

It seems that some of the victims were caught with little to no warning. It is impossible to reliably predict how you would react right then without significant prior training.

However, in an execution scenario where your classmates are being picked off one at a time some people should be able to come to the logical conclusion that action is demanded since the risk can't possibly increase. I'd like to think that my fear wouldn't overcome me and I would be able to act. I might not make it or even be successful but I'd personally rather die trying.

 

[Syringer]

I think talking about these situations will help if, God forbid, something like this happens again. Thinking about one would do and how one could handle it is important--rather than having it come as a complete and total shocker to you..

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: XMan
One of the things I just can't wrap my head around is the fact that nobody seemed to fight back. According to the news reports, people in one of the classrooms just let themselves be lined up against the wall and be shot . . .

You would think that at least one person would have thought - do nothing, die for certain. Do something, maybe live. Throw a textbook at the guy, or a chair, or something.

I dunno. The whole deal is screwed up. But it's just really depressing that everybody just sat there and let it happen. Somebody I was talking to compared it to the Kitty Genovese incident, and in some ways its similar, but I would think that if it were actually happening to you, you would be more likely to do something.

Bystander syndrome

I think you're completely out of your mind here. I dont know where you read that they were lined up, I've heard quite the opposite.

I'm pretty sure I'm not bulletproof, so my first instinct is to run. In a closed classroom, nowhere to run.

I could lunge at him, but that would 100% get his attention and almost definitely get me shot unless I'm behind him.

You are forgetting this is not a fair fight. You vs. a guy with 2 guns on a rampage is equivalent to you vs. a bear, and I dont care how long your cape is, you're not taking on a grizzly and coming out alive. You run and hide or you die.

The best thing to do in the situation, and the one that actually worked for that one girl, was to play dead. You cant run, you can't fight, so you hide in plain sight.

It's not a matter of training. Training will not make you bulletproof, negotiation wasnt an option, so wtf do you expect people to do?

There's been so much coverage about it I can't remember if I read it or heard it on the radio. If I can find something I'll post a link.

I didn't start this thread to be jerk or make light of the people who died, I just have been thinking about this, applying it to some screwed up situations I've been through, and just wondering.

The whole thing is crazy, guess I'm just trying to make sense of it, you know?

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: Syringer
I think talking about these situations will help if, God forbid, something like this happens again. Thinking about one would do and how one could handle it is important--rather than having it come as a complete and total shocker to you..

I think so too.

A perfect example is what happened to Richard Reid after 9/11. He got his butt whooped on by about ten passengers and never had a chance to try and blow the plane up.

If nothing else, the example set by the folks of flight 93, and what happened to Reid may have dissuaded any future hijackings - along with airport security measures, of course.

 

[Farang]

First of all, any of you blaming this on the "pussification of America" or somehow trying to criticize the students for not doing anything, you are complete morons. I hope for your sake you keep your mouth shut in real life as to not make a fool of yourself a second time.

Have you ever been in a college classroom? Any classroom? If you're in your seat and a gunman appears in the doorway and starts firing, you have absolutely zero ability to stop him while that gun is loaded. The rooms are often crowded with little room to move aside from when you shuffle out of them. What the hell do you expect a kid to do? Run at him, face-to-face? Do you understand that it takes a simple point and shoot for the gunman to bring him down? Do you understand we have no idea whether or not someone tried that and was subsequently gunned down? The heroic stories you hear about tackling gunmen are when the gunman is in a room, with people at his back. From all accounts he entered rooms, shot, and left, with the rest of the rooms following standard lockdown procedure.

What are you going to do? Leave your classroom, which appears to be safe for the moment, and go out into the empty hallway to confront him? Point and shoot. You're dead. Congratulations armchair hero, game over.