Whatever happened to "fight or flight"?

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: NFS4
You can talk all big now, but wait until it happens to you. And they didn't know if maybe he had an partner down the hall or right behind him. They didn't know what to do.

Would you let yourself be executed, due to the fear of dying anyways? I mean, if you think about it at least a little bit logically, it'll look like this:

Option 1
Stand your ground, line up against the wall and be shot.

Option 2
-- Succeed
Fight back and stop the gunman, no accomplice with him.

-- Fail
Fight back and get shot anyways, but at least you died trying.

I mean, not fighting back won't help your case at all. In a situation like this, you've got nothing to lose.

but people don't think that way when there's a crazy mofo out there kill people they know.
most people just don't think rationally in a situation like that.

 

[djheater]

We don't know the whole story yet.

I will say I can't see any correlation between Kitty Genovese\bystander syndrome and this.

Bystander syndrome is characterized by imagining that one of the other people will do something so you don't need to. Not the case when your life is in immediate peril.

Perception of authority may have something to do with it. Students in a classroom surrender control and are willing to be subject to authority (man with gun).

But that's all uneducated conjecture.

I'd be interested in member CollectiveUnconscious's pov on it, he's a practicing prof of Social Psychology.

 

[Hammerhead]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
i didn't read that part anywhere in the news articles i read. does someone have a link to where they get lined up and shot?

All reports say that he was silent during the whole thing. Pretty hard to get people to line up without saying a word.

 

[SSSnail]

That's the mentality that the people of this country or are living in this country are groomed to believe. Even when matters that affect them directly, they won't act. I would have at least try, or die trying.

Military services will definitely train a person how to act in such situation, but don't discount human instinct. Sadly, that instinct is now muffed as evident.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: NFS4
You can talk all big now, but wait until it happens to you. And they didn't know if maybe he had an partner down the hall or right behind him. They didn't know what to do.

To tell you the truth, I'd probably be frozen in fear and pissing/sh!tting my pants.

I KNOW what I would do. I've been robbed at gunpoint before. I ran praying "feet don't fail me now." Anyone saying they would attack a crazy gunman is either crazy themselves or lying out their ass.

In a robbery or mugging, the guy is generally looking for "your money or your life" - not both. I'll gladly toss the wallet and run like I stole something at Walmart - I carry minimal cash and I'll have all my ID cancelled before the guy even makes it back to the crackhouse.

- M4H

Very true. I guess it would depend on if he was certainly going to kill me or not. Most robbers are not.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Alone
I feel exactly the same way.

Tonight we dine in Hell!

- M4H

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: NFS4
You can talk all big now, but wait until it happens to you. And they didn't know if maybe he had an partner down the hall or right behind him. They didn't know what to do.

To tell you the truth, I'd probably be frozen in fear and pissing/sh!tting my pants.

I KNOW what I would do. I've been robbed at gunpoint before. I ran praying "feet don't fail me now." Anyone saying they would attack a crazy gunman is either crazy themselves or lying out their ass.

Haha, ditto. After that I wondered how in horror movies the murderer chasing the victim ever catches them - I could have qualified for the Olympics that day.

Conversely, I've always admired and shook my head at a female friend of mine who, when walking to her car in her old apartment's lot, came across two guys in the process of stealing her car. The crazy b!tch ran at them and attacked them. Luckily they were equally as freaked out, not in the mood to commit assault, and merely pushed her down and fled. Could've ended a lot worse.

 

[paulxcook]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
Yea, your thinking speeds up into a mess of incoherent thought until you get hit, then all you can think about is the burning of the wound. Not everybody is that way, but I know I was the first time I was in a situation where guns were firing at something other than a paper target.
My point being, it is almost impossible for untrained people to think rationally in situations such as these.

So here's a question: should students receive some sort of basic self-defense training so they can better-handle such a situation? I'm not talking about everyone learning Muay Thai. More like a training video, or convocation, or something to better prepare people for the worst. I know that sort of thing would upset some people for whatever reason, but if it had clicked in just a few of the kids' heads, this tragedy might not have been quite as bad.

I dunno. Maybe something like that isn't reasonable.

Military service is the only thing that is going to adequately prepare someone for such a situation, in my opinion. And even then, some people just aren't wired to be able to react rationally in such situations.

How about the people on one of the 9/11 planes that rushed the terrorists and forced the plane down? I doubt they all had military training, but they fought back.

Granted, the situations are different, but in principle there are some similarities. I know some people are just going to be worthless in a stressful situation like that (I might be one of them, I hope not but have no way of knowing), but some might remember just enough to act instead of being executed.

 

[RiverDog]

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
I'd rather die fighting - worst case scenario, I get shot to death struggling for his gun, he's wasted a few precious rounds and a good chunk of time, during which some people might be able to run away, or swarm him and bash his head in with whatever is handy.

My wife never likes to hear it, but she knows that I'd rather die fighting to save a life than passively give up my own.

And who knows. Some day someone might call my bluff, and I won't be here to say "I told you so."

But I'd rather be remembered like that.

- M4H

I feel exactly the same way.

:beer: :beer:

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: XMan
One of the things I just can't wrap my head around is the fact that nobody seemed to fight back. According to the news reports, people in one of the classrooms just let themselves be lined up against the wall and be shot . . .

You would think that at least one person would have thought - do nothing, die for certain. Do something, maybe live. Throw a textbook at the guy, or a chair, or something.

I dunno. The whole deal is screwed up. But it's just really depressing that everybody just sat there and let it happen. Somebody I was talking to compared it to the Kitty Genovese incident, and in some ways its similar, but I would think that if it were actually happening to you, you would be more likely to do something.

Bystander syndrome

First off all, this isn't bystander apathy. Nor does Fight or Flight kick in if you're in shock or don't fully comprehend the situation. These are kids who live their entire lives in relatively safety, and then in a few seconds, are put into a dramatic event. They're just too shocked to do anything. It's like being a deer or rabbit in headlights.

Bystander apathy is due to people thinking that others will intervene in the situation, so they themselves don't want to get involved in it because most likely they feel like they can't do anything, or too afraid to do anything.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: NFS4
You can talk all big now, but wait until it happens to you. And they didn't know if maybe he had an partner down the hall or right behind him. They didn't know what to do.

To tell you the truth, I'd probably be frozen in fear and pissing/sh!tting my pants.

I KNOW what I would do. I've been robbed at gunpoint before. I ran praying "feet don't fail me now." Anyone saying they would attack a crazy gunman is either crazy themselves or lying out their ass.

In a robbery or mugging, the guy is generally looking for "your money or your life" - not both. I'll gladly toss the wallet and run like I stole something at Walmart - I carry minimal cash and I'll have all my ID cancelled before the guy even makes it back to the crackhouse.

- M4H

Very true. I guess it would depend on if he was certainly going to kill me or not. Most robbers are not.

Exactly. This guy wasn't a robber and he wanted nothing from the people he shot except to kill them. From the writings they found, he was a racist that felt inferior to the white man. He particularly didn't like white people with money, but when it came to the killings...he didn't discriminate. He was already in the heat of the moment unloading his magazines.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
Yea, your thinking speeds up into a mess of incoherent thought until you get hit, then all you can think about is the burning of the wound. Not everybody is that way, but I know I was the first time I was in a situation where guns were firing at something other than a paper target.
My point being, it is almost impossible for untrained people to think rationally in situations such as these.

So here's a question: should students receive some sort of basic self-defense training so they can better-handle such a situation? I'm not talking about everyone learning Muay Thai. More like a training video, or convocation, or something to better prepare people for the worst. I know that sort of thing would upset some people for whatever reason, but if it had clicked in just a few of the kids' heads, this tragedy might not have been quite as bad.

I dunno. Maybe something like that isn't reasonable.

Military service is the only thing that is going to adequately prepare someone for such a situation, in my opinion. And even then, some people just aren't wired to be able to react rationally in such situations.

How about the people on one of the 9/11 planes that rushed the terrorists and forced the plane down? I doubt they all had military training, but they fought back.

Granted, the situations are different, but in principle there are some similarities. I know some people are just going to be worthless in a stressful situation like that (I might be one of them, I hope not but have no way of knowing), but some might remember just enough to act instead of being executed.

Big difference there. They KNEW they were doomed, and even worse, knew that their plane was going to be used as a weapon to kill thousands more. They knew there was little chance of survival and that they might as well save the lives of those on the ground.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: NFS4
You can talk all big now, but wait until it happens to you. And they didn't know if maybe he had an partner down the hall or right behind him. They didn't know what to do.

Would you let yourself be executed, due to the fear of dying anyways? I mean, if you think about it at least a little bit logically, it'll look like this:

Option 1
Stand your ground, line up against the wall and be shot.

Option 2
-- Succeed
Fight back and stop the gunman, no accomplice with him.

-- Fail
Fight back and get shot anyways, but at least you died trying.

I mean, not fighting back won't help your case at all. In a situation like this, you've got nothing to lose.

Yeah right. You would be just as shocked as they were if all this was happening within a few mins. If he had held them for an hour so they could overcome their initial shock, maybe some of them would have acted.

And who knows, maybe some of them did. But it's hard to kill a guy that is intent on killing people when all you have are textbooks and pens to throw at him.

 

[hanoverphist]

Originally posted by: XMan
I can understand running when he's coming down the hall or whatever, but when he came into the classroom and made people lineup, that's what blows me away.

None of the girls had pepper spray in their purses?

Shoot, you throw a cell phone at somebody hard enough, it will make them flinch away at the very least. I know hindsight is 20/20, and we weren't there, but I've been shot at before . . . everything kinda slows down, except for your thinking.

Hat tip to the professor who blocked off the door so his kids could away. Text

ya, when faced with it youre likely to react totally different than when thinking "what if" scenarios. ive been held up at gun point, had a shotgun to my face. he looked away for just a sec and i took it away from him and knocked him back on his butt with the stock. if i hadnt ever played around with friends doing stuff just like that, i doubt i would have reacted, or even seen an opportunity to react. some people just dont have that instinct, and being in a situation like that is a very traumatic ordeal for many. i really wish someone had tried to do something, but i dont fault anyone for not trying. maybe they thought he wouldnt shoot them, would stop before he got to them. or maybe they thought someone else would bust in at the right time and save them, but it never happened.

 

[BigSmooth]

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: NFS4
You can talk all big now, but wait until it happens to you. And they didn't know if maybe he had an partner down the hall or right behind him. They didn't know what to do.

Would you let yourself be executed, due to the fear of dying anyways? I mean, if you think about it at least a little bit logically, it'll look like this:

Option 1
Stand your ground, line up against the wall and be shot.

Option 2
-- Succeed
Fight back and stop the gunman, no accomplice with him.

-- Fail
Fight back and get shot anyways, but at least you died trying.

I mean, not fighting back won't help your case at all. In a situation like this, you've got nothing to lose.

Perhaps they heard sirens or had seen police outside and were hoping they could still be rescued. In any case, these classrooms were not that small and we don't know how close he was when he shot people. Throwing something at him, bum rushing him, or even pepper spray might not have worked at all.

We do know that the gunman was quite accurate. Let's say he first shot a few people in the head from across the room. Everyone can see that he has two guns that he can fire very quickly and that he has a great deal of ammo. You calculate your options and realize that any aggressive act on your part will likely result in instant death. Even if you're lined up and worried that you're next, the urge to mount an attack would quickly be replaced by utter fear IMO.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: NFS4
You can talk all big now, but wait until it happens to you. And they didn't know if maybe he had an partner down the hall or right behind him. They didn't know what to do.

Would you let yourself be executed, due to the fear of dying anyways? I mean, if you think about it at least a little bit logically, it'll look like this:

Option 1
Stand your ground, line up against the wall and be shot.

Option 2
-- Succeed
Fight back and stop the gunman, no accomplice with him.

-- Fail
Fight back and get shot anyways, but at least you died trying.

I mean, not fighting back won't help your case at all. In a situation like this, you've got nothing to lose.

Dude, I'd be so worthless. If I saw someone's brains get blown out in front of me and multiple people murdered, I'd be liable to just faint, throw up or just lose all control (it's making me nauseous to just think about it now).

It's pretty fun/cool to cap people in video games or watch heads explode in movies, but I have the feeling that in real life I'd be a punk ass bitch.

Sorry to say it, but it's the truth.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
Yea, your thinking speeds up into a mess of incoherent thought until you get hit, then all you can think about is the burning of the wound. Not everybody is that way, but I know I was the first time I was in a situation where guns were firing at something other than a paper target.
My point being, it is almost impossible for untrained people to think rationally in situations such as these.

So here's a question: should students receive some sort of basic self-defense training so they can better-handle such a situation? I'm not talking about everyone learning Muay Thai. More like a training video, or convocation, or something to better prepare people for the worst. I know that sort of thing would upset some people for whatever reason, but if it had clicked in just a few of the kids' heads, this tragedy might not have been quite as bad.

I dunno. Maybe something like that isn't reasonable.

Military service is the only thing that is going to adequately prepare someone for such a situation, in my opinion. And even then, some people just aren't wired to be able to react rationally in such situations.

How about the people on one of the 9/11 planes that rushed the terrorists and forced the plane down? I doubt they all had military training, but they fought back.

Granted, the situations are different, but in principle there are some similarities. I know some people are just going to be worthless in a stressful situation like that (I might be one of them, I hope not but have no way of knowing), but some might remember just enough to act instead of being executed.

Big difference there. They KNEW they were doomed, and even worse, knew that their plane was going to be used as a weapon to kill thousands more. They knew there was little chance of survival and that they might as well save the lives of those on the ground.

I'm pretty sure that if he's lined up 20 of your classmates and shot 5 in the head already, you know you're doomed.

 

[chowmein]

logic makes no sense when you're seconds from sh!ttin' your pants. i dare you not to second guess yourself when i have a gun to your face.

 

[merlocka]

Originally posted by: RiverDog

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
I'd rather die fighting - worst case scenario, I get shot to death struggling for his gun, he's wasted a few precious rounds and a good chunk of time, during which some people might be able to run away, or swarm him and bash his head in with whatever is handy.

My wife never likes to hear it, but she knows that I'd rather die fighting to save a life than passively give up my own.

And who knows. Some day someone might call my bluff, and I won't be here to say "I told you so."

But I'd rather be remembered like that.

- M4H

I feel exactly the same way.

:beer: :beer:

No one knows what they would do when faced with that type of situation. It's great to assume you would go ninja on the perp, but I feel the reality would be otherwise.

 

[lokiju]

I was thinking this same exact thing yesterday after hearing about how many people got killed.

You'd think more would have lost their lives in an effort to stop the killer rather than sit there and let it happen.

Same sort of thing with the 9/11 airplane hijackings with the exception of the one plane.

 

[CollectiveUnconscious]

Originally posted by: XMan
One of the things I just can't wrap my head around is the fact that nobody seemed to fight back. According to the news reports, people in one of the classrooms just let themselves be lined up against the wall and be shot . . .

You would think that at least one person would have thought - do nothing, die for certain. Do something, maybe live. Throw a textbook at the guy, or a chair, or something.

I dunno. The whole deal is screwed up. But it's just really depressing that everybody just sat there and let it happen. Somebody I was talking to compared it to the Kitty Genovese incident, and in some ways its similar, but I would think that if it were actually happening to you, you would be more likely to do something.

Bystander syndrome

The bystander effect is applied in situations where one is less likely to act due to the others around him. However, do you really think that a lone individual would be more likely to intervene? I seriously doubt it. It wasn't the amount of people that caused the lack of action, it was the immediate stress of the situation.

With concern to "fight or flight." That term is relatively outdated, and most people's behavior will follow Fight, Flight, Freeze, or Appeasement when in stressed situations. It would seem to me that the majority of individuals followed the appeasement model. It was not the correct model in this situation, but it seems to be the most popular model in today's society.

The main point of this is that stress causes us to act in a manner that is unknown to us until we are in such a situation. You can claim you will act a certain way all you want to, but you will not know until you have been put in a situation that activates your stress response.

 

[Alone]

Originally posted by: merlocka
No one knows what they would do when faced with that type of situation. It's great to assume you would go ninja on the perp, but I feel the reality would be otherwise.

I'm 100% certain what I would do in such a situation. There really isn't a choice when it comes to dying for nothing and dying for everything.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: JS80
that israeli professor had the idea. people nowadays don't understand self sacrifice for the betterment of their fellow man. too much to lose.

Hell if I wouldn't risk death to avoid almost certain death. Hindsight is 20/20 but if no one has the guts you're all screwed. All it takes is ONE person to shout and ACT for everyone to wake up.

 

[irishScott]

This is why I'm taking Krav Maga lessons. If and when it happens (there's a guy down the hall from me which has the same silent/trenchcoat/odd knowledge of weapons persona), I'll have the confidence of knowing that I know how to disable him. Hell I can disarm anyone who comes within arms length and doesn't know what they're doing.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: merlocka
No one knows what they would do when faced with that type of situation. It's great to assume you would go ninja on the perp, but I feel the reality would be otherwise.

I'm 100% certain what I would do in such a situation. There really isn't a choice when it comes to dying for nothing and dying for everything.

BS. Unless you have been in a life or death situation you don't know how you'll act. You can think rationally and lay out all your options when you are nice a cozy behind a computer, but you can't when you're actually in the middle of a hellstorm. The only way to know how you'll act is to be made to act.