what the palestinians teach their kids

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DAPUNISHER

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My appologies for the misspelling, I corrected it :)
I agree with most of your points. I think the suicide bombing is really damaging to their cause. However, it can't be assumed that if they stop resisting with force, that there would be any difference to their situation. Would the international community and the media really care if there was no casualties on either side? Israel would just quietly continue the annexation of the territories by increasing the number and sizes of the illegal settlements, and the living conditions for Palestinians would only get worse.

I think if they thought someone would have stepped in, they would have by now. The only power that can make a difference in the conflict is the US, and up to this point, it has shown itself incapable, or unwilling, to a fair broker.
You just need to understand the philosophy underlying passive resistance to appreciate what a difference it would make :) They would not stop resisting at all but rather adopt completely passive means of doing so. In fact, a great deal more resistance would be in order so as to ensure that the Israelis either work towards a solution or force their will upon Palestinians who refuse to defend themselves from attack. Should that occur I can assure you public sentiment here in the states would rapidly polarize towards the Palestinians for humanitarian reasons and our goverment would be forced to use it's considerable leverage with the Israelis to stop the killing of unarmed defenseless people who are being massacred simply for conducting peaceful protests. what form those protest would need to take to be effective is a huge question to be answered though, I don't know if sit-ins and that type of tactic can be effectively used in this case or if some serious ingenuity would be required to make it effective but it's a better place to channel resources and enegry than making strap-on bombs IMHO. My belief is that their present strategy is both doomed to failure and counter-productive to the ultimate goal so why not explore more peaceful and consequently potentially far more productive strategies? It just seems illogical to me to try to win what you want through terror and violence against other unarmed civilians since it's clearly not working despite years of following the doctrine :confused:
 

replicator

Senior member
Oct 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
My appologies for the misspelling, I corrected it :)
I agree with most of your points. I think the suicide bombing is really damaging to their cause. However, it can't be assumed that if they stop resisting with force, that there would be any difference to their situation. Would the international community and the media really care if there was no casualties on either side? Israel would just quietly continue the annexation of the territories by increasing the number and sizes of the illegal settlements, and the living conditions for Palestinians would only get worse.

I think if they thought someone would have stepped in, they would have by now. The only power that can make a difference in the conflict is the US, and up to this point, it has shown itself incapable, or unwilling, to a fair broker.
You just need to understand the philosophy underlying passive resistance to appreciate what a difference it would make :) They would not stop resisting at all but rather adopt completely passive means of doing so. In fact, a great deal more resistance would be in order so as to ensure that the Israelis either work towards a solution or force their will upon Palestinians who refuse to defend themselves from attack. Should that occur I can assure you public sentiment here in the states would rapidly polarize towards the Palestinians for humanitarian reasons and our goverment would be forced to use it's considerable leverage with the Israelis to stop the killing of unarmed defenseless people who are being massacred simply for conducting peaceful protests. what form those protest would need to take to be effective is a huge question to be answered though, I don't know if sit-ins and that type of tactic can be effectively used in this case or if some serious ingenuity would be required to make it effective but it's a better place to channel resources and enegry than making strap-on bombs IMHO. My belief is that their present strategy is both doomed to failure and counter-productive to the ultimate goal so why not explore more peaceful and consequently potentially far more productive strategies? It just seems illogical to me to try to win what you want through terror and violence against other unarmed civilians since it's clearly not working despite years of following the doctrine :confused:

I agree, the present strategy is doomed. It is a good point that there are other ways of resisting, but I don't know how realistic the other options are. I suppose I've become a bit of a pessimist lately on this issue. It is unfortunate that current escalations on both sides have strengthened the extremists while weakening the moderates on both sides.

Still, it is that sort of thinking that would make a real difference over there. I wish both sides had some sense.

cheers
 

shrumpage

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Arafat is another debate for another day. At the very least, he was recognized for his effort in coming to the negotiation table and work on a peace plan. That's more effort then Sharon ever gives.

What happened after Arafat came to the table? was there more or less violence?
 

Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
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Originally posted by: replicator

Sure, I will say that arab countries with any similar types of discriminatory laws are in the wrong. I have no problem saying that. My point was that this hatred goes both ways in this conflict, and trying to project this view that all Palestinians are monstrous and blood thirsty is plain ridiculous, and even you should know that.

who is trying to project the view that it is all the palestinians fault? i have not. in fact many times through this thread i have pointed this out. but what no one seem to want to acknowledge is when children are taught to hate and kill from age 4 on up what do you think they are going to do as teenagers? this thread is filled mostly with people basically trying to make excuses for the palestinians, which does nothing to solve the problem.

Originally posted by: replicator
Are you concerned about what Israelis are teaching Palestinian kids?

These kids live well below the poverty line and in constant fear of being killed, having a family member killed, or their house bulldozed. Is it not the occupiers responsibility to help these children as well? The sudden concern by many for these Palestinian kids is hypocritical and self-serving, when nobody has really cared about the damage the occupation and conflict has caused for them.

There is an excellent article by Gideon Levy in the Haaretz today that everyone should read.

He writes about how Israelis are acting suddenly concerned for Palestinian children because of the child would-be suicide bomber caught just recently, when they have been using tanks and launching bombs into densely populated areas all this time. They had to know that there would be innocent casualties, but they deemed it worth it. As the article states, "from September 29, 2000 through February 29, 2004, IDF soldiers killed 486 children and teenagers, 255 of them under the age of 15."

With those kind of numbers, I don't think you can say they are really trying their best to avoid children casualties.

many of those casualties are from the "children" making themselves COMBATANTS. no big surpise after being bombarded by PA TV/radio and preaching in the mosques to hate and kill the jews. many people in this country who want the think of the PA in the best light possible simply ignore the evidence to hols on to thier dogma.



Originally posted by: replicator
"The hundreds of children who have been killed, the thousands who have been crippled, and the hundreds of thousands who live under conditions of siege and poverty, and are exposed every day to violence and humiliation - all this has failed to move the Israeli public. Just the child with the belt.

Why weren't we shocked by the killing of Christine Sa'ada, who was shot dead in an IDF ambush while traveling in a car with her parents in Bethlehem, exactly a year ago today? Why was there no public outcry following the killing of Jamil and Ahmed Abu Aziz, two brothers who were riding their bicycles in Jenin in broad daylight when a tank fired a shell at them? How is their killing, which was documented on video, less cruel? Why didn't we show pictures of Basil and Abir Abu Samra, who were killed together with their mother in their vineyard near Nablus, just as we displayed pictures of Hussam Abdu? Why have we never discussed the killing of children at the entrance to the Qalandiyah refugee camp, where a child is killed by Border Police or IDF fire every few weeks? Why is a putting an explosives belt on a child more shocking than firing a shell at him?"

i for one was appalled by that and more

Shalhevet Pass, the 10 month jewish baby shot between the eyes at a playground. Rabbi Binyamin Herling, killed when Fatah members and Palestinian security forces opened fire on a group of Israeli men, women, and children on a trip at Mount Ebal near Nablus. Eyal Yeberbaum, 27, and seven-month-old Shaked Avraham, both of Negohot, south of Hebron, were killed during the holiday meal on the eve of Rosh Hashana...the people in Cafe Hillel, Maxim Reastaurant, Hebrew University, Park Hotel...

the average american does not understand 2 very important things.

1. history never dies in the middle east.

2. for the jews the apocalypse was yesterday. many of us think of it as history...however when you meet people with their bergen-belsen number on thier arm who tells you what they went through, it can no longer really be considered as a distant historical event...it is right there in a grandfathers face with weary eyes telling his grandson about how they always heard on the german radio speeches saying "kill the jews"and hearing the same thing after israel was reborn and the leaders of arab nations said the same thing andcame with their armies. after which the grandson turns on his TV and sees THIS then he watches the news and sees buses, restaurants, passover seders(supper) littered with blood and gore for one purpose.

to kill jews...old young, mane, women children, babies...it does not matter.

the jews are not going to give up, they know no matter where they go it will be the same...after all it always has.

does this make them right in some of the things they do? of course not. but i can see and understand exactly where they are coming from.
 

Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
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Originally posted by: shrumpage
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Arafat is another debate for another day. At the very least, he was recognized for his effort in coming to the negotiation table and work on a peace plan. That's more effort then Sharon ever gives.

What happened after Arafat came to the table? was there more or less violence?

i did not say that. to me arafat signed a treaty with no intent to honor it..so the fact he signed it is meaningless. as i cherokee i know about those "treaties" all too well. ;)
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Originally posted by: shrumpage
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Arafat is another debate for another day. At the very least, he was recognized for his effort in coming to the negotiation table and work on a peace plan. That's more effort then Sharon ever gives.

What happened after Arafat came to the table? was there more or less violence?

i did not say that. to me arafat signed a treaty with no intent to honor it..so the fact he signed it is meaningless. as i cherokee i know about those "treaties" all too well. ;)

Two things happened after 2000. Palestinian Infidata started and Sharon got elected.

The following is a stat of death from both side, you be the judge on which side is worse. Again I want to mention, there is no evidance that links Arafat and his group to any of the suicide bombing. What he was reponsible of was urging palestinian people to protest the Israel occupation with demonstration, which often resulted in Israel firing live ammmunition at the people.

Regarding the Palestinian Infidata of 2000, (as of March 2003)

Palestinians killed
859 deaths including 77 assassinations (war crime according to the Hague Convention- 1907).

26% < 18 years. 85.4 % civilian. 203 killed by heavy weapons. 529 killed by live ammunition. Investigations were not conducted, granting immunity to Israelis and allowing them to act unlawfully

Palestinians injured
+ 20,000
West Bank 29.5% children, 32.7% live ammunition, 64.7% upper body, 39% moderate-severe (14,523 cases, 27/11)

Gaza Strip: 57% children, 37% live ammunition, 60% upper body, (4,279 cases-Aug 7th)

Permanent Disabilities Estimated at 2,000. Ministry of Health estimated 437 Palestinian child disabled.

Here you go:

Israelis killed 212 of which 64% soldiers or settlers
 

Dman877

Platinum Member
Jan 15, 2004
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If nazi's were occupying your country and bulldozing houses of anyone suspected of being anti-nazi, what would you be doing? The situation I described is not unlike what palestinians have undergone for the last 60 years, the ideological differences, in this case, are just as intense.
 

DBL

Platinum Member
Mar 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: rchiu

Two things happened after 2000. Palestinian Infidata started and Sharon got elected.

The following is a stat of death from both side, you be the judge on which side is worse. Again I want to mention, there is no evidance that links Arafat and his group to any of the suicide bombing. What he was reponsible of was urging palestinian people to protest the Israel occupation with demonstration, which often resulted in Israel firing live ammmunition at the people.

Regarding the Palestinian Infidata of 2000, (as of March 2003)

Palestinians killed
859 deaths including 77 assassinations (war crime according to the Hague Convention- 1907).

26% < 18 years. 85.4 % civilian. 203 killed by heavy weapons. 529 killed by live ammunition. Investigations were not conducted, granting immunity to Israelis and allowing them to act unlawfully

Palestinians injured
+ 20,000
West Bank 29.5% children, 32.7% live ammunition, 64.7% upper body, 39% moderate-severe (14,523 cases, 27/11)

Gaza Strip: 57% children, 37% live ammunition, 60% upper body, (4,279 cases-Aug 7th)

Permanent Disabilities Estimated at 2,000. Ministry of Health estimated 437 Palestinian child disabled.

Here you go:

Israelis killed 212 of which 64% soldiers or settlers

You have some nerve to present such obviously flawed statistics. It really demonstrates your lack of partiality in the situation. Why not post the link which helped you to arrive at these ridiculous figures? I already linked a thorough study with facts and research to back it up, which completely disagrees with anything you posted above.

How is it possible that, according to your statistics, only 36% of Israelis killed are non-combatants, when the primary method of killing for the Palestinians has been suicide bombs? Your figures are laughable at the very least. Does your 64% soldier and Settler figure also include settler babies slaughtered by Palestinian terrorists? I'm sorry but if it does, you really are a sad pathetic excuse for a human.

Keep reading and presenting your propaganda, the very propaganda you claim doesn't exist. It does wonders for your cause, whatever it is.




 

DBL

Platinum Member
Mar 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: Dman877
If nazi's were occupying your country and bulldozing houses of anyone suspected of being anti-nazi, what would you be doing? The situation I described is not unlike what palestinians have undergone for the last 60 years, the ideological differences, in this case, are just as intense.

You really have no clue. Have you ever actually researched the history of the Middle East and the circumstances surrounding the current conflict? You could actually learn something.

BTW, I?m still trying to understand your analogy, which is as ridiculous as they come. Why not present links showing that Israeli's bulldoze the houses of ALL Palestinians, if that is even what you are trying to say?


 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: rchiu

Two things happened after 2000. Palestinian Infidata started and Sharon got elected.

The following is a stat of death from both side, you be the judge on which side is worse. Again I want to mention, there is no evidance that links Arafat and his group to any of the suicide bombing. What he was reponsible of was urging palestinian people to protest the Israel occupation with demonstration, which often resulted in Israel firing live ammmunition at the people.

Regarding the Palestinian Infidata of 2000, (as of March 2003)

Palestinians killed
859 deaths including 77 assassinations (war crime according to the Hague Convention- 1907).

26% < 18 years. 85.4 % civilian. 203 killed by heavy weapons. 529 killed by live ammunition. Investigations were not conducted, granting immunity to Israelis and allowing them to act unlawfully

Palestinians injured
+ 20,000
West Bank 29.5% children, 32.7% live ammunition, 64.7% upper body, 39% moderate-severe (14,523 cases, 27/11)

Gaza Strip: 57% children, 37% live ammunition, 60% upper body, (4,279 cases-Aug 7th)

Permanent Disabilities Estimated at 2,000. Ministry of Health estimated 437 Palestinian child disabled.

Here you go:

Israelis killed 212 of which 64% soldiers or settlers

You have some nerve to present such obviously flawed statistics. It really demonstrates your lack of partiality in the situation. Why not post the link which helped you to arrive at these ridiculous figures? I already linked a thorough study with facts and research to back it up, which completely disagrees with anything you posted above.

How is it possible that, according to your statistics, only 36% of Israelis killed are non-combatants, when the primary method of killing for the Palestinians has been suicide bombs? Your figures are laughable at the very least. Does your 64% soldier and Settler figure also include settler babies slaughtered by Palestinian terrorists? I'm sorry but if it does, you really are a sad pathetic excuse for a human.

Keep reading and presenting your propaganda, the very propaganda you claim doesn't exist. It does wonders for your cause, whatever it is.

It is globally accepted that Israel occupation force is one of the worst in terms of human right violator. Go read any UN publication and you can find same information all over. There are numerous proposal in UN to send observation and peace keeping force to Palestinian, only to be vetoed by United State, wondering what is there that Israel don't want the world to see.

Go ahead and tally the total death by suicide bombing, yeah they make the headlines, but the actual death doesn't compare to the Palestinian killed by Israel.

I dare you to post actual number that shows Israel suffers more death than Palestinian during this period.

And oh, I am glad that I touch the nerves of blind supporters of Israel's inhumane occupation such as you.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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0
Additional and updated information: (source UN press release SG2077)

.....

The report covers a period running from approximately the beginning of March to 7 May 2002. It sets out the context and background of the situation in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory. It also describes the security, humanitarian and human rights responsibilities of both parties. It briefly charts the rising violence since September 2000, which had, by 7 May 2002, caused the deaths of 441 Israelis and 1,539 Palestinians.

.....

Conduct of IDF during Incursions

The report refers to allegations from the Palestinian Authority and human rights organizations that, in the course of its operations, the IDF engaged in unlawful killings, the use of human shields, disproportionate use of force, arbitrary arrests and torture, and denial of medical treatment and access. Among the examples and descriptions given in the report are the following:


-- Death toll: Four hundred ninety-seven Palestinians were killed and 1,447 wounded in the course of the IDF reoccupation of Palestinian areas from 1 March through 7 May 2002 and in the immediate aftermath. Most accounts estimate that between 70 and 80 Palestinians, including approximately 50 civilians, were killed in Nablus. The IDF lost four soldiers there. In Jenin camp, by the time of the IDF?s withdrawal and the lifting of the curfew on 18 April, at least

52 Palestinians, of whom up to half may have been civilians, and 23 Israeli soldiers were dead. Allegations by Palestinian Authority officials in mid-April that 500 or more persons were killed in Jenin camp were not substantiated by the evidence that subsequently emerged.



-- Arbitrary arrests and detention: By 6 May, an alleged 7,000 Palestinians had been arrested under Operation Defensive Shield, many of them held for long periods with little or no outside contact. In many instances, the IDF followed a pattern of using loudspeakers to summon males between the ages of 15 and 45. According to human rights reports, significant numbers of the men arrested were blindfolded and handcuffed, not allowed to use a lavatory, and deprived of food or blankets during their first day in detention.



-- Human shields: There were numerous reports of the IDF compelling Palestinian civilians to accompany them during house searches, check suspicious subjects, stand in the line of fire, and in other ways protect soldiers from danger. Witnesses claim that this was done in the Jenin camp and other Palestinian cities. The Government of Israel has denied that its military personnel systematically engaged in this practice, but on 5 May issued ?an unequivocal order ... that forces in the field are absolutely forbidden to use civilians as a means of ?living shield??.



-- Disproportionate and indiscriminate destruction: Operation Defensive Shield resulted in the widespread destruction of Palestinian private and public property. The IDF is reported to have used bulldozers, tank shelling and rocket firing, at times from helicopters, in populated areas. The report points to the fact that over 2,800 refugee housing units were damaged and 878 homes were demolished or destroyed during the period covered, leaving more than 17,000 people homeless or in need of shelter rehabilitation. Nablus was especially hard hit in terms of physical destruction, notably in its Old City, which contained many buildings of cultural, religious and historic significance.



-- Destruction of Palestinian Authority civilian property: United Nations agencies and other international agencies, when allowed into Ramallah and other Palestinian cities, documented extensive physical damage to Palestinian Authority civilian property. That damage included the destruction of office equipment, such as computers and photocopying machines, that did not appear to be related to military objectives. While denying that such destruction was systematic, the IDF has admitted that its personnel engaged in some acts of vandalism, and is carrying out some related prosecutions.



-- Curfews and closures: Round-the-clock curfews were imposed in cities, refugee camps, towns and villages, affecting an estimated 1 million people. Two hundred twenty thousand urban residents lived under curfew regimes for over a week, without vital supplies and access to first aid. In Nablus, for example, the IDF imposed a curfew on 3 April and completely lifted it only on 22 April.



-- Denial of humanitarian access: During and immediately after the incursions, the report finds that Palestinian civilians suffered from prolonged delays in medical attention for the wounded and sick. In Jenin, especially, from 11-15 April, United Nations and other humanitarian agencies petitioned and negotiated with the IDF for access to the camp, and made many attempts to send in convoys, to no avail. Many of the reports of human rights groups contain accounts of wounded civilians waiting days to reach medical assistance, and being refused medical treatment by IDF soldiers. In some cases, people died as a result of these delays.



-- Attacks on ambulances: The report cites three instances where Israeli forces attacked ambulances. On 4 March (before the Jenin incursion), the head of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society Emergency Medical Service in Jenin was killed by a shell fired from an Israeli tank while he was travelling in a clearly marked ambulance. On 7 March, an employee of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) was shot and killed while riding in an UNRWA ambulance near Tulkarm in the West Bank. And on 8 April, an UNRWA ambulance was fired on as it tried to reach a wounded man in Jenin. The Government of Israel has asserted that ambulances were used to transport terrorists and their weapons.



Israeli Death Toll during period 1 March ? 7 May



According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the IDF lost 30 soldiers during Operation Defensive Shield. Israel also endured approximately 16 terrorist bombings, the large majority of which were suicide attacks, between the beginning of March and 7 May. More than 100 persons were killed and scores more wounded in those attacks.



Overall Impact


The civilian population in the occupied Palestinian territory continues to suffer severe hardships, many of which have sharply intensified since the events covered in the report. There has been a near-complete cessation of all productive activity in the main West Bank centres of manufacturing, construction, commerce and private and public services, exacerbating the severe decline in living standards over the last 18 months. The United Nations does not have a mandate to monitor and report on conditions in Israel, as it does in the occupied Palestinian territory, and, therefore, does not have detailed information about the broader impact on Israel?s society and economy. But it is clear that during this period the Israeli people, too, have experienced great suffering, as a result of terrorism, and that Israel?s economy has been badly damaged.



In conclusion, the report stresses that a full and comprehensive account of the events in Jenin and other Palestinian cities could not be given without the full cooperation of both parties and a visit to the area. However, the Secretary-General expresses his confidence that ?the picture painted in this report is a fair representation of a complex reality?, as well as his belief that the events described show how urgent it is that the parties return to the peace process.

 

Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
1,456
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0
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: rchiu

Two things happened after 2000. Palestinian Infidata started and Sharon got elected.

The following is a stat of death from both side, you be the judge on which side is worse. Again I want to mention, there is no evidance that links Arafat and his group to any of the suicide bombing. What he was reponsible of was urging palestinian people to protest the Israel occupation with demonstration, which often resulted in Israel firing live ammmunition at the people.

Regarding the Palestinian Infidata of 2000, (as of March 2003)

Palestinians killed
859 deaths including 77 assassinations (war crime according to the Hague Convention- 1907).

26% < 18 years. 85.4 % civilian. 203 killed by heavy weapons. 529 killed by live ammunition. Investigations were not conducted, granting immunity to Israelis and allowing them to act unlawfully

Palestinians injured
+ 20,000
West Bank 29.5% children, 32.7% live ammunition, 64.7% upper body, 39% moderate-severe (14,523 cases, 27/11)

Gaza Strip: 57% children, 37% live ammunition, 60% upper body, (4,279 cases-Aug 7th)

Permanent Disabilities Estimated at 2,000. Ministry of Health estimated 437 Palestinian child disabled.

Here you go:

Israelis killed 212 of which 64% soldiers or settlers


It is globally accepted that Israel occupation force is one of the worst in terms of human right violator. Go read any UN publication and you can find same information all over. There are numerous proposal in UN to send observation and peace keeping force to Palestinian, only to be vetoed by United State, wondering what is there that Israel don't want the world to see.

Go ahead and tally the total death by suicide bombing, yeah they make the headlines, but the actual death doesn't compare to the Palestinian killed by Israel.

I dare you to post actual number that shows Israel suffers more death than Palestinian during this period.

And oh, I am glad that I touch the nerves of blind supporters of Israel's inhumane occupation such as you.


all that proves is the israeli's are better fighters. the past 50 years have shown that as well.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Originally posted by: shrumpage
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Arafat is another debate for another day. At the very least, he was recognized for his effort in coming to the negotiation table and work on a peace plan. That's more effort then Sharon ever gives.

What happened after Arafat came to the table? was there more or less violence?

i did not say that. to me arafat signed a treaty with no intent to honor it..so the fact he signed it is meaningless. as i cherokee i know about those "treaties" all too well. ;)

Two things happened after 2000. Palestinian Infidata started and Sharon got elected.

The following is a stat of death from both side, you be the judge on which side is worse. Again I want to mention, there is no evidance that links Arafat and his group to any of the suicide bombing. What he was reponsible of was urging palestinian people to protest the Israel occupation with demonstration, which often resulted in Israel firing live ammmunition at the people.

Regarding the Palestinian Infidata of 2000, (as of March 2003)

Palestinians killed
859 deaths including 77 assassinations (war crime according to the Hague Convention- 1907).

26% < 18 years. 85.4 % civilian. 203 killed by heavy weapons. 529 killed by live ammunition. Investigations were not conducted, granting immunity to Israelis and allowing them to act unlawfully

Palestinians injured
+ 20,000
West Bank 29.5% children, 32.7% live ammunition, 64.7% upper body, 39% moderate-severe (14,523 cases, 27/11)

Gaza Strip: 57% children, 37% live ammunition, 60% upper body, (4,279 cases-Aug 7th)

Permanent Disabilities Estimated at 2,000. Ministry of Health estimated 437 Palestinian child disabled.

Here you go:

Israelis killed 212 of which 64% soldiers or settlers

<a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=439">An Engineered Tragedy Statistical Analysis of Casualties in the Palestinian - Israeli Conflict,
September 2000 - September 2002
</a>
raw numbers without examination is worthless. kind of odd these supposed indescrimint attacks cause 95% male casualties with palestinians, yet israeli losses represent far more closely the normal population distribution of women, the young and old. not to mention the palestinians have a habit of including gunmen, suicide bombers, palestinians killed by their own as "collaborators" and their own collateral damage to inflate their numbers.
 

DBL

Platinum Member
Mar 23, 2001
2,637
0
0
Originally posted by: rchiu

It is globally accepted that Israel occupation force is one of the worst in terms of human right violator. Go read any UN publication and you can find same information all over. There are numerous proposal in UN to send observation and peace keeping force to Palestinian, only to be vetoed by United State, wondering what is there that Israel don't want the world to see.

Is this the same UN Human rights commission whose members include countries such as Somalia, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia as members? Sounds like they may be the epitome of human rights abuses and as such, lose all credibility. These countries use the UN as a bartering tool to scratch each others back and prevent inquiry into their own human rights abuses while condemning Israel, the only functioning and free democratic society among them.

And oh, I am glad that I touch the nerves of blind supporters of Israel's inhumane occupation such as you.

Let's look at what you stated. You stated that 64% of Israelis killed were soldiers or settlers, as if this somehow vindicates the Palestinian terrorists b/c they are killing primarily those directly involved in their "occupation". I was simply pointing out that a certain percentage of settlers killed were children and BABIES, murdered in cold blood by inhuman, homicidal terrorists. The fact that you present a statistic that seems to try and humanize the terrorists but in fact glosses over the fact that BABIES are included in the statistic is completely despicable and reprehensible.

This is not a question of finding humor in pissing me off b/c I support Israel. I am questioning your inherent ability to function as a compassionate human being. Regardless of your feeling in the current situation, you knew full well that those statistics were inherently flawed, but b/c you felt they show Palestinians in a better light, you choose to present them anyway. You should be ashamed of yourself.



 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

<a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=439">An Engineered Tragedy Statistical Analysis of Casualties in the Palestinian - Israeli Conflict,
September 2000 - September 2002
</a>
raw numbers without examination is worthless. kind of odd these supposed indescrimint attacks cause 95% male casualties with palestinians, yet israeli losses represent far more closely the normal population distribution of women, the young and old. not to mention the palestinians have a habit of including gunmen, suicide bombers, palestinians killed by their own as "collaborators" and their own collateral damage to inflate their numbers.


Oh so raw number without examination is worthless, but statistical analysis from a biased source means a lot? We are suppose to believe an Israeli think tank telling us how many palestinians were killed as "collaborators"? We are suppose to take the conclusion when the think tank is free to pick the stats and free to define the terms?

The fact is that nobody really knows the detail of what's going on in Palestine. Because Israeli refuse to have an unbaised source like UN to investiage the situation, fearing someone in their rank will be charged with war crimes. But there is no debate on Palestinians are being killed at almost 3:1 ratio, the people in the occupied terriroty lives in poverty and fear, and there is no justice or freedom for the Palestinian people in that region because of Israel occupation.

Let's see what UN Special Rapporteur has to say about the situation in Palestine shall we?

JOHN DUGARD, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Terriroties occupied by Israel since 1967, said the situation had deteriorated radically during the past year. The violations of both human rights and international humanitarian law were frequent, regular, substantial and effectively unchallenged. Consequently, the credibility of the legal orders designed to promote human rights and to ensure respect for international humanitarian law were threatened. If the international institutions established to protect human rights in time of peace and armed conflict could not respond more positively and effectively to the crisis in the Territory, the major advances of the past 50 years in those fields would be seriously undermined.

Mr. Dugard said over 3,000 lives had been lost in violence since the start of the Second Intifida in September 2000: over 2,300 Palestinians and 700 Israelis had been killed. More than 25,000 Palestinians and 5,000 Israelis had been injured. The Israeli military operations, dubbed "Defensive Shield" and "Determined Path" in the first part of 2002, followed by subsequent operations, had created a grave humanitarian crisis. The heavy bombing of the cities of Jenin and Nablus, followed by curfews in the major Palestinian cities and towns, aggravated by restrictions of movement caused by several hundred military checkpoints and roadblocks, had destroyed the foundations of Palestinian economic and social life. Poverty, based on a test of US$ 2 or less consumption per day, stood at over 60 per cent.

Mr. Dugard said destruction of property had been a regular feature of Israeli policy towards Palestine for many years. The number of arrests and detention had risen dramatically. Over 5,000 Palestinians at present were in custody. Children had probably suffered most from the present conflict. Both Palestinian and Israeli children had been exposed to threats to their personal safety. Israeli territorial expansion continued either by means of an increase in settlers and settlements or by means of the "apartheid wall" which would place an estimated 10 per cent of Palestinian land within Israel.

Israel did not seriously contest its violation of human rights norms and international humanitarian law, Mr. Dugard said. Loss of life, inhuman and degrading treatment, arbitrary arrest and detention without trial, restrictions of freedom of movement, the arbitrary destruction of property, among other things, were instead justified as self-defense and as legitimate anti-terrorism action. Israeli legitimate security concerns could not be denied; however, it was very difficult to justify Israel's actions.

 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: DBL

Is this the same UN Human rights commission whose members include countries such as Somalia, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia as members? Sounds like they may be the epitome of human rights abuses and as such, lose all credibility. These countries use the UN as a bartering tool to scratch each others back and prevent inquiry into their own human rights abuses while condemning Israel, the only functioning and free democratic society among them.
Well that's why it is called UN. It does not discriminatorily leave out countries just because those countries don?t follow its ideology. And by the way, Somalia, Libya and Syria are not a member in 2004, but both US and UK are. Here is a link to the Human right commission members: Maybe it is good idea to check your information before you post next time before you make a fool of yourself.

Human right commission members

[/quote]
Let's look at what you stated. You stated that 64% of Israelis killed were soldiers or settlers, as if this somehow vindicates the Palestinian terrorists b/c they are killing primarily those directly involved in their "occupation". I was simply pointing out that a certain percentage of settlers killed were children and BABIES, murdered in cold blood by inhuman, homicidal terrorists. The fact that you present a statistic that seems to try and humanize the terrorists but in fact glosses over the fact that BABIES are included in the statistic is completely despicable and reprehensible.

This is not a question of finding humor in pissing me off b/c I support Israel. I am questioning your inherent ability to function as a compassionate human being. Regardless of your feeling in the current situation, you knew full well that those statistics were inherently flawed, but b/c you felt they show Palestinians in a better light, you choose to present them anyway. You should be ashamed of yourself.[/quote]

"compassionate human being"? I find it ironic how someone claim themselves as compassionate human being and attack other as not when the State they support is enforcing inhumane and unjust treatment towards an entire group of people, when the despicable act of terrorism is carried out by a small percent of extremist. Do you have any idea of what it is like in the occupied territory? House and farms are destroyed, roads are closed to the Palestinians, poverty rages and 22% of children suffers from malnutrition. Over 50% of people are unemployed because of the movement restrictions and closing of boarders.

I see that Palestinians in a better light because I know not all of them are terrorist, terrorists are a minority of the Palestinian people and terrorism does not give Israeli the right to treat the entire Palestinian people without basic human right. You should be the one to be ashamed of yourself for supporting the current Sharon regime that ruthlessly destroy the home of people and murder large numbers of civilians.
 

Zephyr106

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
1,309
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Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: DBL

Is this the same UN Human rights commission whose members include countries such as Somalia, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia as members? Sounds like they may be the epitome of human rights abuses and as such, lose all credibility. These countries use the UN as a bartering tool to scratch each others back and prevent inquiry into their own human rights abuses while condemning Israel, the only functioning and free democratic society among them.
Well that's why it is called UN. It does not discriminatorily leave out countries just because those countries don?t follow its ideology. And by the way, Somalia, Libya and Syria are not a member in 2004, but both US and UK are. Here is a link to the Human right commission members: Maybe it is good idea to check your information before you post next time before you make a fool of yourself.

Human right commission members
Let's look at what you stated. You stated that 64% of Israelis killed were soldiers or settlers, as if this somehow vindicates the Palestinian terrorists b/c they are killing primarily those directly involved in their "occupation". I was simply pointing out that a certain percentage of settlers killed were children and BABIES, murdered in cold blood by inhuman, homicidal terrorists. The fact that you present a statistic that seems to try and humanize the terrorists but in fact glosses over the fact that BABIES are included in the statistic is completely despicable and reprehensible.

This is not a question of finding humor in pissing me off b/c I support Israel. I am questioning your inherent ability to function as a compassionate human being. Regardless of your feeling in the current situation, you knew full well that those statistics were inherently flawed, but b/c you felt they show Palestinians in a better light, you choose to present them anyway. You should be ashamed of yourself.[/quote]

"compassionate human being"? I find it sad how someone claim themselves as compassionate human being and attack other as not when the State they support is enforcing inhumane and unjust treatment towards an entire group of people, when the despicable act of terrorism is carried out by a small percent of extremist. Do you have any idea of what it is like in the occupied territory? House and farms are destroyed, roads are closed to the Palestinians, poverty rages and 22% of children suffers from malnutrition. Over 50% of people are unemployed because of the movement restrictions and closing of boarders.

I see that Palestinians in a better light because I know not all of them are terrorist, terrorists are a minority of the Palestinian people and terrorism does not give Israeli the right to treat the entire Palestinian people without basic human right. You should be the one to be ashamed of yourself for supporting the current Sharon regime that ruthlessly destroy the home of people and murder large numbers of civilians.[/quote]

You're either with us or you're against us. Just living in proximity to terrorists means all Palestinians are terrorists, and are against us. It is our duty to destroy every last one of them.

Zephyr
 

DBL

Platinum Member
Mar 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: rchiu
Well that's why it is called UN. It does not discriminatorily leave out countries just because those countries don?t follow its ideology. And by the way, Somalia, Libya and Syria are not a member in 2004, but both US and UK are. Here is a link to the Human right commission members: Maybe it is good idea to check your information before you post next time before you make a fool of yourself.

Human right commission members

Well, you are correct that those countries are not currently members. However, they were recently, so the point still stands. Perhaps I should list the various despot regimes which are currently a part of the UNHRC?



"compassionate human being"? I find it ironic how someone claim themselves as compassionate human being and attack other as not when the State they support is enforcing inhumane and unjust treatment towards an entire group of people, when the despicable act of terrorism is carried out by a small percent of extremist. Do you have any idea of what it is like in the occupied territory? House and farms are destroyed, roads are closed to the Palestinians, poverty rages and 22% of children suffers from malnutrition. Over 50% of people are unemployed because of the movement restrictions and closing of boarders.


Look, Israel views itself in a war with violent terrorists. It matters not that not all Palestinians are terrorists. Israel and any other country for that matter has an obligation to protect its citizens. When Israel views itself as having destroyed the terrorist infra-structure and as such, all Israelis are safe from terrorist attack, then it can be asked to focus on the conditions of the Palestinians. Until that time, Palestinians need to stop blaming Israel and take an introspective look at their society. Only then will they realize the solution to their problems.

The PA is as corrupt as any government in todays modern world. Arafat has personally bilked the Palestinians of hundreds of millions of dollars, all hidden away in his not-so-secret swiss bank accounts. Don't you think this should upset the Palestinians a bit more than it does? In addition, Israel has undeniable proof of Arafat's involvement in terrorism, consisting of his signature releasing funds to terrorists and other documents. So, this argument that only a minority of the Palestinians are extremists, doesn't hold any water, when the country is led by the biggest terrorist of them all. Ask yourself how many wars has Arafat been involved in? Has it always been Israel that the Palestinians were fighting? Does his existence depend on conflict and violence?

The prevailing culture in the territories is one centered on hate and violence. This goes to the original point of this thread and was covered adequately already. I don't fault the average Palestinian, especially the younger ones. They have been brainwashed from very early on to hate Israelis and embrace fanatical beliefs supporting suicide bombing. This is the culture of Palestine b/c the PA knows full well, that w/o this type of education, Palestinians will eventually come to question the PA and rebel.


I see that Palestinians in a better light because I know not all of them are terrorist, terrorists are a minority of the Palestinian people and terrorism does not give Israeli the right to treat the entire Palestinian people without basic human right. You should be the one to be ashamed of yourself for supporting the current Sharon regime that ruthlessly destroy the home of people and murder large numbers of civilians.

Does terrorism give Israel the right to protect itself? If so, how would you propose accomplishing that goal? Let's also keep in mind that the stated goal of Hamas is the elimination of Israel. Considering this, I'd say Israel is taking a very restrained approach, no?

BTW, I'd love to see facts which back up your claim that Israel is murdering "large numbers of civilians". Does anyone deny that Israel could easily wipe the Palestinians out if that was their goal?

If Israel is murdering "large numbers of civilians", how do you explain the fact that women only make up 4.5% (123/2728) of the total Palestinian deaths while Israeli women make up 31.1%(285/917) of the Israeli deaths? This most basic statistic seems to suggest that it is, in fact, Palestinians who are primarily responsible for murdering civilians.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: DBL

Look, Israel views itself in a war with violent terrorists. It matters not that not all Palestinians are terrorists. Israel and any other country for that matter has an obligation to protect its citizens. When Israel views itself as having destroyed the terrorist infra-structure and as such, all Israelis are safe from terrorist attack, then it can be asked to focus on the conditions of the Palestinians. Until that time, Palestinians need to stop blaming Israel and take an introspective look at their society. Only then will they realize the solution to their problems.

The PA is as corrupt as any government in todays modern world. Arafat has personally bilked the Palestinians of hundreds of millions of dollars, all hidden away in his not-so-secret swiss bank accounts. Don't you think this should upset the Palestinians a bit more than it does? In addition, Israel has undeniable proof of Arafat's involvement in terrorism, consisting of his signature releasing funds to terrorists and other documents. So, this argument that only a minority of the Palestinians are extremists, doesn't hold any water, when the country is led by the biggest terrorist of them all. Ask yourself how many wars has Arafat been involved in? Has it always been Israel that the Palestinians were fighting? Does his existence depend on conflict and violence?

The prevailing culture in the territories is one centered on hate and violence. This goes to the original point of this thread and was covered adequately already. I don't fault the average Palestinian, especially the younger ones. They have been brainwashed from very early on to hate Israelis and embrace fanatical beliefs supporting suicide bombing. This is the culture of Palestine b/c the PA knows full well, that w/o this type of education, Palestinians will eventually come to question the PA and rebel.


Does terrorism give Israel the right to protect itself? If so, how would you propose accomplishing that goal? Let's also keep in mind that the stated goal of Hamas is the elimination of Israel. Considering this, I'd say Israel is taking a very restrained approach, no?

BTW, I'd love to see facts which back up your claim that Israel is murdering "large numbers of civilians". Does anyone deny that Israel could easily wipe the Palestinians out if that was their goal?

If Israel is murdering "large numbers of civilians", how do you explain the fact that women only make up 4.5% (123/2728) of the total Palestinian deaths while Israeli women make up 31.1%(285/917) of the Israeli deaths? This most basic statistic seems to suggest that it is, in fact, Palestinians who are primarily responsible for murdering civilians.

There are two problems facing Israel today, the Palestinian territory dispute and the terrorist group like Hamas.

The main dispute between the majority of Palestinian and Israelis is the Israel occupation of Palestinian territory. (Gaza Strips and West Bank). Those territories are predominant Palestinian with 99.4% Palestinian Arab and 0.6% Jewish in Gaza Strip and 83% Palestinian Arab and 17% Jewish in West Bank. (2000 est. CIA Factbook) There were only ~1,500 Jewish population in Gaza and West Bank in 1970, 12,000 in 1980, 76,000 in 1990 but grew to 226,000 in 2002. (Israel Central Bureau of Statistics)

How do you think the Palestinian should react when Jewish forces themselves into areas where millions of Palestinian already call home? How do you think the Palestinian should react when the Israeli military stationed in those areas showed favoritism towards the settlers and treat them as second class citizens?

I do not condemn Israeli for fighting for its right to exist in Israel where the population is 80% Jewish, but they should recognize the right of Palestinian to self-rule in those predominately Palestinian areas. I applaud previous Israeli Prime Ministers like Barak and especially Rabin (murdered by right wing Jew who opposed withdrawing the settlement) who came to the negotiation tables and try to resolve the territory dispute. Israel must resolve the dispute as soon as possible and come to a conclusion which both Palestinian and Israel can accept. Leave the occupied territory and allow Palestinian to return home. If Israeli assist Palestinian financially to rebuild their home and jump-start their economy, it will go a long way in gaining the hearts of Palestinian people and diminishing the support for those terrorist groups. Dealing with terrorist group, however, is another matter separated from the territory dispute. The correct way of dealing with terrorist is pinpointed attacks that hit the people who are responsible. Assassinating the leader whose group claimed responsibility for the terrorist act is a fair game in my opinion. But to charging around with tanks, destroying homes and arresting civilians without due process only serve to anger people who may not support the extremist in the first place. Even America recognize the war on terrorism includes winning the heart of those who may otherwise support terrorist gourp, and starts some good work in Afganishan.

The problem with Israel today is Sharon has person vendetta against Arafat, refuse to negotiate with him, and instead deploy heavy-handed approach in quieting down anti-Israeli sentiment. Israel government failed to recognize the Palestinian?s wish to be independent and simply mix up the issue with terrorism. Israel government did not do this out of stupidity, but they did this to take advantage of United States? suffer after 911 tragedy. It is a calculated move to gain American sympathy by masking everything as a fight against terrorism so that American, their strongest Ally, will do everything to support them.

2,100 death and let's be conservative and say 50% is civilian, that still makes civilian death in Palestine more then the entire Israeli casualty. The death of women on both sides is just another convenient way to making Israel look better. Everyone knows that Islamic doesn't give women as much freedom to do the things man do. Many of the Palestinian death happened during demonstration that ended up Israel soldiers firing live ammunition at them. How many Islamic women do you expect to participate in those demonstrations?
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
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How do you think the Palestinian should react when Jewish forces themselves into areas where millions of Palestinian already call home? How do you think the Palestinian should react when the Israeli military stationed in those areas showed favoritism towards the settlers and treat them as second class citizens?

perhaps with outrage towards the plo.

the plo was given 30 thousand guns for its police force, arafat increased it to 70 thousand. more police per capita then anywhere else on the planet. they were given some self rule as a test of responsibility, and what came of it? those 70 thousand collaborate with terrorists instead of stopping it. fact is israel would never had an excsuse to go on incursions in the plo were even slightyl serious in simply trying to stop terrorism.

you cannot negotiate with people that only see a palestinian state as the first step towards your destruction.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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Aug 22, 2001
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Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
How do you think the Palestinian should react when Jewish forces themselves into areas where millions of Palestinian already call home? How do you think the Palestinian should react when the Israeli military stationed in those areas showed favoritism towards the settlers and treat them as second class citizens?

perhaps with outrage towards the plo.

the plo was given 30 thousand guns for its police force, arafat increased it to 70 thousand. more police per capita then anywhere else on the planet. they were given some self rule as a test of responsibility, and what came of it? those 70 thousand collaborate with terrorists instead of stopping it. fact is israel would never had an excsuse to go on incursions in the plo were even slightyl serious in simply trying to stop terrorism.

you cannot negotiate with people that only see a palestinian state as the first step towards your destruction.
I believe that this point is the key to the entire conflict. The Palestinians having thier own country right next door to Israel while bearing such animosity towards them is the best argument for Israel's lack of co-operation. How can Israel be blamed for not wanting to help create a country right on their borders with whom they have such terrible relations? The Palestinians aren't likely to suddenly warm up to Israel for helping or allowing the Palestinian nation to be created, given that it would be madness to participate in such a plan. The Palestinians would need to embrace non-violence with great vigor for a reasonable period of time before I'd seriously consider the creation of a Palestinian state were I an Israeli.

I realize that this is unfair to the Pals and puts the bulk of the responsibility on them, but given that they are the ones seeking true autonomy and a country to call their own, I feel they will have to be the ones willing to take the steps necessary for it to happen. What they desire is not easy, and as the addage states "Nothing worth having ever is".