what the palestinians teach their kids

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Ornery
"What would you do to have the Germans leave?"

I wouldn't purposely blow up innocent civilians. That's unconscionable, utterly reprehensible, unforgivable, and simply NOT an option for civilized humans.

Suicide bombers = hundreds and for the sake of arguement let us say thousands. Palestinian people = millions. We are talking a small percentage.

People who do the act of suicide are selfish people and feel like that have nothing else left in their life to live for. Why do you think Columbine happend? These kids were picked on and they reached the point where they became insane and they took out the people who were causing them harm as well them with it. Same reason why murder suicide happens.. their life sucks and they dont want anyone else left behind..

Suicide bombers have nothing in their life and have no family. The ones with families almost always never know about their actions until it is too late. Of course they are going to praise their son/daugther for what they did because the people around them are cheering and what best than to think of your kid actions as good rather than bad. When was the last time you saw a Hamas leader's son blowing himself up or even a leader for that matter. They find innocent children and feed them lies. Turning a religion into evil when the religion is very peaceful and taking the context of that holly book and making it fit their goal.

Like I said our life here is a million times better than the life over there. You cannot even imagine what it is like to live over there.
Imagine living in a poor ghetto neighborhood.. you will most likely find gangs. What do gangs do? Kill innocent people.
Poverty creates violence.. and some will disagree with me. When you have nothing to live for who knows how you will behave. They have nothing and no future. What future do the Palestinian people have? none.

this of course is the feel good image of suicide bombers. the horrible truth is that religious funatisism and brainwashing we don't wish to believe is possible does work. are all the suicide bombings in iraq from people with no one left? no! were the 9/11 terrorists all from horrible families, with no education and horrible poor? no. they were educated, many with degrees, many with living families that were middle class, it has nothing to do with being poor and oppressed. it has everything to do with fanatical religion. sure in some cases fanatics can take advantage of those who have indeed suffered and manipulate them for their cause, but that isn't by any means the rule. it is the big lie they would want you to believe.

and don't bring up columbine, those were two mentally disturbed kids, one who even took psych meds. when people of fanatical belief come together, they magnify each others extreme beliefs, they are each others echo chambers. the fact is many kids are picked on and don't go on shooting sprees, so it really justifies absolutely nothing. it is no example that A inevitibly leads to B. heck, i'm sure if some other extremist had found klebold and harris, he could have manipulated them for his own means. be it political or whatever. hand them prebuilt bombs, better weapons etc. those who support terrrorists are in it for political reasons, who they exploit for their purpose and how they do it...well they don't care.

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Ornery
"What would you do to have the Germans leave?"

I wouldn't purposely blow up innocent civilians. That's unconscionable, utterly reprehensible, unforgivable, and simply NOT an option for civilized humans.

Suicide bombers = hundreds and for the sake of arguement let us say thousands. Palestinian people = millions. We are talking a small percentage.

People who do the act of suicide are selfish people and feel like that have nothing else left in their life to live for. Why do you think Columbine happend? These kids were picked on and they reached the point where they became insane and they took out the people who were causing them harm as well them with it. Same reason why murder suicide happens.. their life sucks and they dont want anyone else left behind..

Suicide bombers have nothing in their life and have no family. The ones with families almost always never know about their actions until it is too late. Of course they are going to praise their son/daugther for what they did because the people around them are cheering and what best than to think of your kid actions as good rather than bad. When was the last time you saw a Hamas leader's son blowing himself up or even a leader for that matter. They find innocent children and feed them lies. Turning a religion into evil when the religion is very peaceful and taking the context of that holly book and making it fit their goal.

Like I said our life here is a million times better than the life over there. You cannot even imagine what it is like to live over there.
Imagine living in a poor ghetto neighborhood.. you will most likely find gangs. What do gangs do? Kill innocent people.
Poverty creates violence.. and some will disagree with me. When you have nothing to live for who knows how you will behave. They have nothing and no future. What future do the Palestinian people have? none.

this of course is the feel good image of suicide bombers. the horrible truth is that religious funatisism and brainwashing we don't wish to believe is possible does work. are all the suicide bombings in iraq from people with no one left? no! were the 9/11 terrorists all from horrible families, with no education and horrible poor? no. they were educated, many with degrees, many with living families that were middle class, it has nothing to do with being poor and oppressed. it has everything to do with fanatical religion. sure in some cases fanatics can take advantage of those who have indeed suffered and manipulate them for their cause, but that isn't by any means the rule. it is the big lie they would want you to believe.

and don't bring up columbine, those were two mentally disturbed kids, one who even took psych meds. when people of fanatical belief come together, they magnify each others extreme beliefs, they are each others echo chambers. the fact is many kids are picked on and don't go on shooting sprees, so it really justifies absolutely nothing. it is no example that A inevitibly leads to B. heck, i'm sure if some other extremist had found klebold and harris, he could have manipulated them for his own means. be it political or whatever. hand them prebuilt bombs, better weapons etc. those who support terrrorists are in it for political reasons, who they exploit for their purpose and how they do it...well they don't care.

what does 9/11 has to do with the palestinian/Israeli conflict, are you comparing Al-Qaeda to the palestinians? You right Al-qaeda are from a riche and middle class familes I know that, as I'm a muslim myself. You have to understand that in Islam there are different branches, al-quaeda are Wahhabies. Wahhabies are the enemies of Islam, they're a small minoraty in the middle-east. The attacks on Karbala on the muslim shrine in Iraq a month ago was made by these wahhabies. You see they don't care about others calling themselves muslims, you want to live you have to be wahhabie. Of cours they're condemned by many in the muslim world. OrooOroo I read your post in the past, stop comparing Islam to Wahhabies. An advice to you, when you hate something you must know it extremely well before you attacked like you always do. Find a mosque or a muslim center go inside and tell them that you wish to learn Islam "not join", if they told do that they're sunni it's cool! when you're done go and find a shi'ite mosque or center and ask them the same thing! You will have a good percpective about the two biggest branches in Islam

peace

 

[0roo0roo]

its funny you think that your correct in saying the wahhabies aren't islam. its the same kind of thinking the wahhabies apply to you when they say you aren't a moslim. tad ironic you think?

as for 9/11, it has everything to do with suicide terrorism. you argue that it is sorrow and oppression that causes people to commit suicide terror, when in fact it is mostly fanatisism. a great many people suffer sorrow, loss, oppression without feeling the need to kill other civilians. it is a great big lie that A leads to B.

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
its funny you think that your correct in saying the wahhabies aren't islam. its the same kind of thinking the wahhabies apply to you when they say you aren't a moslim. tad ironic you think?

as for 9/11, it has everything to do with suicide terrorism. you argue that it is sorrow and oppression that causes people to commit suicide terror, when in fact it is mostly fanatisism. a great many people suffer sorrow, loss, oppression without feeling the need to kill other civilians. it is a great big lie that A leads to B.

stop acting like a bigot and a fool, if they're truly muslims they will never kill one of there own!. I truly believe that you will never learn anything but to hate muslim, fine have it you're way go ahead and support Isreali extremists. You want the world to support Isreal ok, but I tell you this guys like you can take our lives but you will never take my our religion away from us! proud to be muslim the best solution is to ignore you, it's you're best medicine

have an amazing life! lol!

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: MegaWorks

what does 9/11 has to do with the palestinian/Israeli conflict, are you comparing Al-Qaeda to the palestinians? You right Al-qaeda are from a riche and middle class familes I know that, as I'm a muslim myself. You have to understand that in Islam there are different branches, al-quaeda are Wahhabies. Wahhabies are the enemies of Islam, they're a small minoraty in the middle-east. The attacks on Karbala on the muslim shrine in Iraq a month ago was made by these wahhabies. You see they don't care about others calling themselves muslims, you want to live you have to be wahhabie. Of cours they're condemned by many in the muslim world. OrooOroo I read your post in the past, stop comparing Islam to Wahhabies. An advice to you, when you hate something you must know it extremely well before you attacked like you always do. Find a mosque or a muslim center go inside and tell them that you wish to learn Islam "not join", if they told do that they're sunni it's cool! when you're done go and find a shi'ite mosque or center and ask them the same thing! You will have a good percpective about the two biggest branches in Islam

peace

driving a plane into a building to create an explosion is not much different in purpose than doing the exact same thing with a car or truck for the same reason....to kill other human beings.

your generalizations also fail when we see sunni and shiaa preaching the same hatred message in the mosques...the reason many non-muslims mistrust the few islamic apologists is that at the same time they "condemn" terrorism they spend much more time trying to make excuses for this behavior! do you doubt me? then read your own posts

also there are more than 3 "branches" of islam. you must be very new to islam not to know this you forgot about the sufis, khariirites, zaidis, nizari etc...etc.

also your inaccurate in charactarizing the wahhabies as a "small minority" they are not as small as implied AND they are not the only islamic terrorists. as far as them not being "real" muslims, the many sects of islam spnend alot of time saying other sects are not really islam, just like the various sects of christians and jews do to other christians and jews.

as for myself i hold political and religious leaders that use government resources to promote terrorism and racism the most responsible when organizations such as the palestinian authority use the media, public schools and religion to brainwash kids into becoming "martyrs" by blowing themselves in the middle of a school, restaurant, or retirement home as we have seen done in israel, they need to be taken out.

 

[rextilleon]

The anti-semitism in the Arab world is transcendent. Egyptian sponsored state TV aired a multi-part series on the Protocols of Zion---a mythological , debunked work that posits that Jews are involved in a world-wide cabal to destroy non-Jews. Today, in Baghdad, the chief cleric called 09/11 "a miracle of Allah" and then went on to implore the Arab masses to kill Jews wherever they live. The problem with Islam is that the vast majority of Muslims are anti-semitic (just look at some of the recent polls conducted in Yemen, Morrocco, Saudi Arabia) and anti-modern. There are some voices in the wilderness but they seldom get heard because those people are afraid that some Iman will order a fatah on them. Just look at what that did to Salam Rushdie and others. I despise Bush and I despise this Iraq policy but they are right about one thing. This is a war between civilizations--one that hasn't progressed much since the Middle Ages. By the way, this has very little to do with Israel.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: MegaWorks
stop acting like a bigot and a fool, if they're truly muslims they will never kill one of there own!. I truly believe that you will never learn anything but to hate muslim, fine have it you're way go ahead and support Isreali extremists. You want the world to support Isreal ok, but I tell you this guys like you can take our lives but you will never take my our religion away from us! proud to be muslim the best solution is to ignore you, it's you're best medicine

have an amazing life! lol!

ahh here we go with the "you are a bigot" thing again...and ohhh!! he is trying to take your religion away! and your life too!

here is a message from Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya to inspire you...and guess what? he is not a whahabie

i wonder what else he teaches his students?

 

[0roo0roo]

he's just in denial. the fact that rabid anti semitism exists in all forms of media in the middle east gives lie to his assertion that its "just the wahhabies".

 

[MegaWorks]

First thing Arabes are a semitic race, stop using anti-semitic crap for yourselves, if someone hates Jews call him anti-jew not semitic. Second most of you pro-extremists call arabes racists realy! well I don't know but in 2000 at the World Conference against Racism in Durban, a statement adopted by 3,000 non-governmental organizations (NGOs) declared that Israel is a racist apartheid state and guilty of war crimes, acts of genocide, and ethnic cleansing. The draft branding Zionism as based on racial superiority. So now these groups are what "anti-semitic" they're from all over the world, different countires! thank god that the world knows the truth

Here's the rest "The NGO declaration accuses Israel of the worst crimes known to humanity, a new form of apartheid (paragraph 80), colonialism (paragraph 80), war crimes (paragraph 80), racist crimes against humanity (paragraph 98), genocide (paragraph 80), and ethnic cleansing (paragraph 80), massive violations of human rights and humanitarian law (paragraph 99). Israel is called a racist state (Paragraph 82). The text calls for the reinstitution of the 1975 UN resolution equating Zionism with racism (paragraph 161) "

thats the truth face of Israel, and it's a big slap! on you and you're racists thoughts!

 

[0roo0roo]

stop with the games, you know very well what anti semitism means. look up who created the term and what it means. thats right, actually look up the intended definition, not the one you make up yourself plaing word games.

its funny your racist state is the only one where arabs can even vote. kind of odd isn't it. the one where arabs have more democratic rights then any other part of the region. yet it is the arab states with oppressive and racist governments that torture/oppress their own people that spend their time crying foul at israel, banding together for a little cluster f*ck, just another way to attack israel. its purely political, a bone to feed their populations, a cheap distraction from their own oppression, and the fact that you cannot see this is rather pathetic.

the fact is this, the arab population in the area is 8% of the world population. yet they only produce 2% of the economic output. instead they produce 65% of the terrorist output of the world. somethings rotten in those societies and your denial is just simply a symptom of the problem. where blatant hatred/indoctrination on the level not seen since the days of hitler is simply not accknowledged as a problem. pure denial of the fundamental problem.

the fact is this. there are people far poorer then even the palestinians, yet do not resort to violence. still not pretty, but the simple assertion that these people are the result of simple suffering is the biggest lie out there. it takes a society that condones actively and tacitly teaching hatred and love of death from 1st grade on, reading textbooks with incitment to violence, textbooks that call for the destruction of all of israel. to steep children in atmospheres of extremist hate filled rhetoric from all forms of media/levels of government/religious leaders. the minds of the current generation has been poisoned.

somehow its ok to see how nazi's brainwashed their society, but its not ok to point out palestinians are poisoning themselves with the same digusting ideology of hatred and love of death. to ignore such a fundamental fact is to see the entire situation through distorted fantasy.

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
stop with the games, you know very well what anti semitism means. look up who created the term and what it means. thats right, actually look up the intended definition, not the one you make up yourself plaing word games.

its funny your racist state is the only one where arabs can even vote. kind of odd isn't it. the one where arabs have more democratic rights then any other part of the region. yet it is the arab states with oppressive and racist governments that torture/oppress their own people that spend their time crying foul at israel, banding together for a little cluster f*ck, just another way to attack israel. its purely political, a bone to feed their populations, a cheap distraction from their own oppression, and the fact that you cannot see this is rather pathetic.

the fact is this, the arab population in the area is 8% of the world population. yet they only produce 2% of the economic output. instead they produce 65% of the terrorist output of the world. somethings rotten in those societies and your denial is just simply a symptom of the problem. where blatant hatred/indoctrination on the level not seen since the days of hitler is simply not accknowledged as a problem. pure denial of the fundamental problem.

the fact is this. there are people far poorer then even the palestinians, yet do not resort to violence. still not pretty, but the simple assertion that these people are the result of simple suffering is the biggest lie out there. it takes a society that condones actively and tacitly teaching hatred and love of death from 1st grade on, reading textbooks with incitment to violence, textbooks that call for the destruction of all of israel. to steep children in atmospheres of extremist hate filled rhetoric from all forms of media/levels of government/religious leaders. the minds of the current generation has been poisoned.

somehow its ok to see how nazi's brainwashed their society, but its not ok to point out palestinians are poisoning themselves with the same digusting ideology of hatred and love of death. to ignore such a fundamental fact is to see the entire situation through distorted fantasy.

I like you're apologies, you attack the goverments if it's like if they truly represent the people of the arabe world. They're all dictatator regims and they do not represent the people, most of these regims where created by the UK and France after they took these lands from the Ottamans. Second I'm not playing any games, it's a fact that Israel is a racist stat, you're the one who's liing and making this big stupid game that palestinians are fighting a war because they hate the jews blah! blah! BS. It's the world that agreed on Israel savage brutality againts the palestinians not me, so I'm not making any game! You're the one who hate to accept the truth because it bothers you, which is good!

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
stop with the games, you know very well what anti semitism means. look up who created the term and what it means. thats right, actually look up the intended definition, not the one you make up yourself plaing word games.

its funny your racist state is the only one where arabs can even vote. kind of odd isn't it. the one where arabs have more democratic rights then any other part of the region. yet it is the arab states with oppressive and racist governments that torture/oppress their own people that spend their time crying foul at israel, banding together for a little cluster f*ck, just another way to attack israel. its purely political, a bone to feed their populations, a cheap distraction from their own oppression, and the fact that you cannot see this is rather pathetic.

the fact is this, the arab population in the area is 8% of the world population. yet they only produce 2% of the economic output. instead they produce 65% of the terrorist output of the world. somethings rotten in those societies and your denial is just simply a symptom of the problem. where blatant hatred/indoctrination on the level not seen since the days of hitler is simply not accknowledged as a problem. pure denial of the fundamental problem.

the fact is this. there are people far poorer then even the palestinians, yet do not resort to violence. still not pretty, but the simple assertion that these people are the result of simple suffering is the biggest lie out there. it takes a society that condones actively and tacitly teaching hatred and love of death from 1st grade on, reading textbooks with incitment to violence, textbooks that call for the destruction of all of israel. to steep children in atmospheres of extremist hate filled rhetoric from all forms of media/levels of government/religious leaders. the minds of the current generation has been poisoned.

somehow its ok to see how nazi's brainwashed their society, but its not ok to point out palestinians are poisoning themselves with the same digusting ideology of hatred and love of death. to ignore such a fundamental fact is to see the entire situation through distorted fantasy.

Oh come on, do you truly believe that terrorism against Israel is caused by racism? You gotta be blind or so uninformed about the situation over there to make that determination. Yes the economy output at Palestine occupied territory is low, but could it be that's because of the continuing conflicts over there with Israel and their American tanks roaming around and hunting down anyone they think is a terrorist? How do you expect a society to be productive when men can be arrested or killed without going through any kind of legal process. In a study done by UN, it is estimated that because of internal movement restriction and the closing of international boarder, the occupied territory lost approx. 50% of GDP. It another report to the UN commission to human right in 2001, it was reported that:
1) Israeli occupation forces frequently carried out punitive demolitions of Palestinian homes.
2) The Israeli General Security Service (GSS) had used torture systematically during the interrogation of Palestinians suspected of security offences.
3) The practice of administrative detention, without charges or trial, had also continued.

During a visit by UN Human Right Commission High Commissioner in Nov. 2000, he reported that:
The human rights situation in the Palestinian territory was bleak. ?The most persistent allegation brought to the attention of the High Commissioner was that Israeli security forces have engaged in excessive force, disproportionate to the threat faced by their soldiers.? To disperse the demonstrations, the High Commissioner noted, the Israeli military authorities had used live ammunition, rubber-coated steel bullets and tear gas, all of which had resulted in deaths and injuries amongst the Palestinians. Heavier weapons had also been used, including rockets fired by infantry and from helicopters. Armoured vehicles and heavy machine guns had been deployed throughout the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Sure there is lots of Palestinian terrorist who are willing to blow themselves up to kill Israelis. But could the source of hatred be how Israeli treats Palestinians in a territory they occupied and how they handles the terrorist treat? What do you think is a more realistic reason for someone to blow themselves up? A clergy or text book tells them so or because their house got demolished, family/friends killed, getting shoot at, and arrested without cause?

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: MegaWorks

I like you're apologies, you attack the goverments if it's like if they truly represent the people of the arabe world. They're all dictatator regims and they do not represent the people, most of these regims where created by the UK and France after they took these lands from the Ottamans. Second I'm not playing any games, it's a fact that Israel is a racist stat, you're the one who's liing and making this big stupid game that palestinians are fighting a war because they hate the jews blah! blah! BS. It's the world that agreed on Israel savage brutality againts the palestinians not me, so I'm not making any game! You're the one who hate to accept the truth because it bothers you, which is good!

no one is not "just" saying many arab political and religious leaders "hate the jews" i have posted videos of the said leaders saying it THEMSELVES. the PA is teaching hate through media it controls, schools it controls and many religious leaders that are not wahabies preach it in sermons at the al aqsa mosque

and it is all documented.

 

[replicator]

It isn't only Arab leaders that are preaching hate.

What are Israeli leaders teaching their children when their government policies themselves are racist.

While other democracies do not distinguish between citizenship and nationality, there are exclusive rights only reserved for those that are considered Jewish
Among them are the exclusive use of land, privileged access to private and public employment, special educational loans, home mortgages, preferences for admission to universities, among others.

93 percent of Israel's land can only be leased or owned by Jews or Jewish agencies.

Right of Return, granting any Jew-but no one else-automatic Israeli citizenship

legislation preventing Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from residing with their Israeli spouses in Israel and from obtaining Israeli citizenship

These policies resemble those of apartheid south africa

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: MegaWorks

I like you're apologies, you attack the goverments if it's like if they truly represent the people of the arabe world. They're all dictatator regims and they do not represent the people, most of these regims where created by the UK and France after they took these lands from the Ottamans. Second I'm not playing any games, it's a fact that Israel is a racist stat, you're the one who's liing and making this big stupid game that palestinians are fighting a war because they hate the jews blah! blah! BS. It's the world that agreed on Israel savage brutality againts the palestinians not me, so I'm not making any game! You're the one who hate to accept the truth because it bothers you, which is good!

no one is not "just" saying many arab political and religious leaders "hate the jews" i have posted videos of the said leaders saying it THEMSELVES. the PA is teaching hate through media it controls, schools it controls and many religious leaders that are not wahabies preach it in sermons at the al aqsa mosque

and it is all documented.

 

[0roo0roo]

What are Israeli leaders teaching their children when their government policies themselves are racist.

actually tolerance. when their military teaches soldiers to minimize civilian casualties and their textbooks do not preach hate, but tolerance. a vast contrast with the palestinians.

While other democracies do not distinguish between citizenship and nationality, there are exclusive rights only reserved for those that are considered Jewish

and yet, israel is the only democracy in the area. and even one who gives citizenship to those who's bretheren are in a vicious war with them.

Among them are the exclusive use of land, privileged access to private and public employment, special educational loans, home mortgages, preferences for admission to universities, among others.

your saying israelis can buy palestinian land?

93 percent of Israel's land can only be leased or owned by Jews or Jewish agencies.

they are at war with those who would take land any way they could get it. i ask you again, can a jew buy palestinian land?

Right of Return, granting any Jew-but no one else-automatic Israeli citizenship

you have some gall to speak of right of return. the palestinians demand right of return on only to their own country, but to that of a neihboring country(israel) as the only path to peace. any country has the right to let in only those who they choose. it is a basic right. ever wonder why they had to have such a law? ah yes, rabid antisemitism throughout the world, making israel a safe haven against those who would kill them.

legislation preventing Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from residing with their Israeli spouses in Israel and from obtaining Israeli citizenship

These policies resemble those of apartheid south africa

they aren't perfect, but they are far from what the palestinians have become. considernig the tolerance they show to those who would have them killed. no other country in history has shown such restraint when at war with a peoples of which they have a large citizen minority of the same lineage. especially when there are cases of israeli palestinians involved in attacks. the israelis aren't even near apartheid of south africa. you seem to know nothing of the rights of blacks south africa....they had NONE. frankly your wasting your time ignoring the simple fact that the palestinians policies more then resemble those of nazi germany.




and yet, israeli arabs have more rights then anywhere else in the middle east. they can vote, they have civil rights...

amazing considering how some have been found to be collaborating with terrorists. it shows the amazing restraint and tolerance of the israelis. japanese in the us got interned for far far far far far less then what the palestinians have done. even israeli palestinians.

now what is a jew in palestine? thats right..dead.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: replicator
It isn't only Arab leaders that are preaching hate.

What are Israeli leaders teaching their children when their government policies themselves are racist.

do you have any examples to back yourself up as i have provided? is the israeli school system teaching hatered with government approval? in the synagogues do the rabbis expound on how the arab "must be eliminated" like their ismalic couterparts do? has sharon been videotaped caling for "death to the rab" in public speches? got any proof?

Originally posted by: replicator
While other democracies do not distinguish between citizenship and nationality, there are exclusive rights only reserved for those that are considered Jewish
Among them are the exclusive use of land, privileged access to private and public employment, special educational loans, home mortgages, preferences for admission to universities, among others.

93 percent of Israel's land can only be leased or owned by Jews or Jewish agencies.

Right of Return, granting any Jew-but no one else-automatic Israeli citizenship

legislation preventing Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from residing with their Israeli spouses in Israel and from obtaining Israeli citizenship

These policies resemble those of apartheid south africa

actually, i cannot think of one country that does not have exclusive rights to citizens that non citizens enjoy...can you name one? how does religious freedom compare to nations under islamic law? what about laws forbidding arabs to sell land to jews that have existed since the 18th century? why are palestinians killed when they sell land to jews?

i wil be honest and say i do not like many of the laws israel has, can those on the other side of the fence make the same admission about arab countries that have similar and more discriminatory laws? i wonder...

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

What are Israeli leaders teaching their children when their government policies themselves are racist.

actually tolerance. when their military teaches soldiers to minimize civilian casualties and their textbooks do not preach hate, but tolerance. a vast contrast with the palestinians.

While other democracies do not distinguish between citizenship and nationality, there are exclusive rights only reserved for those that are considered Jewish

and yet, israel is the only democracy in the area. and even one who gives citizenship to those who's bretheren are in a vicious war with them.

Among them are the exclusive use of land, privileged access to private and public employment, special educational loans, home mortgages, preferences for admission to universities, among others.

your saying israelis can buy palestinian land?

93 percent of Israel's land can only be leased or owned by Jews or Jewish agencies.

they are at war with those who would take land any way they could get it. i ask you again, can a jew buy palestinian land?

Right of Return, granting any Jew-but no one else-automatic Israeli citizenship

you have some gall to speak of right of return. the palestinians demand right of return on only to their own country, but to that of a neihboring country(israel) as the only path to peace. any country has the right to let in only those who they choose. it is a basic right. ever wonder why they had to have such a law? ah yes, rabid antisemitism throughout the world, making israel a safe haven against those who would kill them.

legislation preventing Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from residing with their Israeli spouses in Israel and from obtaining Israeli citizenship

These policies resemble those of apartheid south africa

they aren't perfect, but they are far from what the palestinians have become. considernig the tolerance they show to those who would have them killed. no other country in history has shown such restraint when at war with a peoples of which they have a large citizen minority of the same lineage. especially when there are cases of israeli palestinians involved in attacks. the israelis aren't even near apartheid of south africa. you seem to know nothing of the rights of blacks south africa....they had NONE. frankly your wasting your time ignoring the simple fact that the palestinians policies more then resemble those of nazi germany.




and yet, israeli arabs have more rights then anywhere else in the middle east. they can vote, they have civil rights...

amazing considering how some have been found to be collaborating with terrorists. it shows the amazing restraint and tolerance of the israelis. japanese in the us got interned for far far far far far less then what the palestinians have done. even israeli palestinians.

now what is a jew in palestine? thats right..dead.

Lets just say, for the argument's sake, that what you say about Palestine is true. How does that diminish the fact that Israel is a racist state? It seems that your only argument is to point fingers; "But they are worse!".

Israel genuinely discriminates all religions outside of it's own, and your finger pointing does zero to strengthen your assertions; all it does is it shows that your head is filled with so much Zionist zeal that you can't even cook up a valid counter-argument.

Bottom line is that Israel is a racist state, and other countries being worse in that regard, changes nothing.

 

[Siwy]

double post

 

[replicator]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
i wil be honest and say i do not like many of the laws israel has, can those on the other side of the fence make the same admission about arab countries that have similar and more discriminatory laws? i wonder...

Sure, I will say that arab countries with any similar types of discriminatory laws are in the wrong. I have no problem saying that. My point was that this hatred goes both ways in this conflict, and trying to project this view that all Palestinians are monstrous and blood thirsty is plain ridiculous, and even you should know that.

Are you concerned about what Israelis are teaching Palestinian kids?

These kids live well below the poverty line and in constant fear of being killed, having a family member killed, or their house bulldozed. Is it not the occupiers responsibility to help these children as well? The sudden concern by many for these Palestinian kids is hypocritical and self-serving, when nobody has really cared about the damage the occupation and conflict has caused for them.

There is an excellent article by Gideon Levy in the Haaretz today that everyone should read.

He writes about how Israelis are acting suddenly concerned for Palestinian children because of the child would-be suicide bomber caught just recently, when they have been using tanks and launching bombs into densely populated areas all this time. They had to know that there would be innocent casualties, but they deemed it worth it. As the article states, "from September 29, 2000 through February 29, 2004, IDF soldiers killed 486 children and teenagers, 255 of them under the age of 15."

With those kind of numbers, I don't think you can say they are really trying their best to avoid children casualties.

"The hundreds of children who have been killed, the thousands who have been crippled, and the hundreds of thousands who live under conditions of siege and poverty, and are exposed every day to violence and humiliation - all this has failed to move the Israeli public. Just the child with the belt.

Why weren't we shocked by the killing of Christine Sa'ada, who was shot dead in an IDF ambush while traveling in a car with her parents in Bethlehem, exactly a year ago today? Why was there no public outcry following the killing of Jamil and Ahmed Abu Aziz, two brothers who were riding their bicycles in Jenin in broad daylight when a tank fired a shell at them? How is their killing, which was documented on video, less cruel? Why didn't we show pictures of Basil and Abir Abu Samra, who were killed together with their mother in their vineyard near Nablus, just as we displayed pictures of Hussam Abdu? Why have we never discussed the killing of children at the entrance to the Qalandiyah refugee camp, where a child is killed by Border Police or IDF fire every few weeks? Why is a putting an explosives belt on a child more shocking than firing a shell at him?"

 

[vegeto456]

Originally posted by: Ornery
"What would you do to have the Germans leave?"

I wouldn't purposely blow up innocent civilians. That's unconscionable, utterly reprehensible, unforgivable, and simply NOT an option for civilized humans.

But we did... nagasaki and hiroshima... targeting of civilians helps to destroy the morale of populations and their soldiers.. we purposely bombed civilians in germany and japan and it worked very effectively...

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: vegeto456

Originally posted by: Ornery
"What would you do to have the Germans leave?"

I wouldn't purposely blow up innocent civilians. That's unconscionable, utterly reprehensible, unforgivable, and simply NOT an option for civilized humans.

But we did... nagasaki and hiroshima... targeting of civilians helps to destroy the morale of populations and their soldiers.. we purposely bombed civilians in germany and japan and it worked very effectively...

Have you seen the film "The Fog of War?" It talks about just these kinds of things.

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Ornery
"What would you do to have the Germans leave?"

I wouldn't purposely blow up innocent civilians. That's unconscionable, utterly reprehensible, unforgivable, and simply NOT an option for civilized humans.

So all those aircrews over German and Japanese cities in WWII are were committing unconscionable, utterly reprehensible, unforgivable, acts?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: Ornery
"What would you do to have the Germans leave?"

I wouldn't purposely blow up innocent civilians. That's unconscionable, utterly reprehensible, unforgivable, and simply NOT an option for civilized humans.

So all those aircrews over German and Japanese cities in WWII are were committing unconscionable, utterly reprehensible, unforgivable, acts?

Good point because they are 2 very different situations with nothing but the death of civilians in common. WWII was black&white, a clear struggle against meglomaniacs bent on world domination and the brutal subjugation of it's peoples. The reasons for nuking Japan are well documented, after the military action in Okinawa and seeing Japanese military and civilians leap from cliffs to their deaths before allowing us to capture them, and the "fight to the last man" mentality displayed resulting in heavy allied casualties it became all to clear that invading Japan proper would be a long drawn out action that would destroy most of Japan in the process and projections estimated 100's of thousands of allied deaths and millions of Japanese in the process. The nukes provided the ability to end it quickly with minimal loss of life to allies. Considering the Japanese disregard for the Geneva convention, their sneak attack on Pearl Harbor to begin hostilities, their brutal actions against the Chinese, and the suicide bomber Kamakazi tactics, there was ample justification for any action that placed allied lives above Japanese civilians at that time, and given the circumstances. Bombing Germany was justifiable as well since after all the intent was to end the attempt at world domination by the axis forces. While the loss of civilians is always lamentable, the lack of technology for smart bombs and the like made minimizing those deaths near impossible, and the Germans had already killed millions of Russian and European civlians, and pounded the Brits' cities to near rubble through years of indiscriminate bombing. The Germans and Japanese initiated the hostilities and had the goal of world conquest and domination therefore they were responsible for the death of their civilians and that blood is on their hands and not the allies.

The situation in Israel bears no resemblance to WWII and the suicide bomber tactics will never have the impact saturation bombing or nukes would on demoralizing the enemy or destroying their military/industrial infrastructure. Since suicide bombing lacks that capability it amounts to nothing more than terror tactics and a "eye for an eye" mentality with no more lofty goal than revenge for the deaths of other innocents=vicious circle. The Israelis are never going to pack up and leave because of suicide bombings and targeting civilians is only going to continue to provide justification for the military retaliations. Since 9/11 many Americans can now empathize with what it's like to have your civilians and businesses become targets and that tends to channel the empathy towards those who's civilians are being intentionally targeted and not those who are using similar tactics to those used against us. That makes what the Palestinians are doing flat out stupid because as time goes by more Americans perceive our situation as more similar to the Israelis than the Palesinians and Americans are hypersensitive to terror tactics now so using them puts you on our sh*t list and that's not a good place to be in the 21st century.

The rhetorical question is what else can the Palestinians do? What other choice do they have? To my mind the best answer is to be like Gandhi. Eschew violence, then if the sensless killing continues it becomes plainly evident that it's a one sided affair and you are the helpless victim. The deaths that result would far better serve their cause than the manner in which suicide bomber deaths presently do. The rationalization has been that lacking a real military with the capacity to meet the Israelis in open military conflict that their present tactics are their only recourse but passive resistance is a far superior strategy just as Ghandi proclaimed. Then the response is that they have a right to defend themselves, however, since they lack the capability to effectively do so why not just cease any attempts to do so and let your defenseless peoples senseless deaths eventually bring about the support that will lead to the change you seek? as Ghandi said "Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man." The only potential problem with this strategy is that should the suicide bombings and other violence cease that the Israelis would also become much more reasonable and begin to work out a compromise in earnest instead of simply to placate the U.S. their primary sponsor. Heaven forbid that should happen eh?

 

[sxr7171]

Why can't anyone spell Gandhi right anymore? I've noticed this a lot lately.

 

[replicator]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: Ornery
"What would you do to have the Germans leave?"

The rhetorical question is what else can the Palestinians do? What other choice do they have? To my mind the best answer is to be like Ghandi. Eschew violence, then if the sensless killing continues it becomes plainly evident that it's a one sided affair and you are the helpless victim. The deaths that result would far better serve their cause than the manner in which suicide bomber deaths presently do. The rationalization has been that lacking a real military with the capacity to meet the Israelis in open military conflict that their present tactics are their only recourse but passive resistance is a far superior strategy just as Ghandi proclaimed. Then the response is that they have a right to defend themselves, however, since they lack the capability to effectively do so why not just cease any attempts to do so and let your defenseless peoples senseless deaths eventually bring about the support that will lead to the change you seek? as Ghandi said "Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man." The only potential problem with this strategy is that should the suicide bombings and other violence cease that the Israelis would also become much more reasonable and begin to work out a compromise in earnest instead of simply to placate the U.S. their primary sponsor. Heaven forbid that should happen eh?

I agree with most of your points. I think the suicide bombing is really damaging to their cause. However, it can't be assumed that if they stop resisting with force, that there would be any difference to their situation. Would the international community and the media really care if there was no casualties on either side? Israel would just quietly continue the annexation of the territories by increasing the number and sizes of the illegal settlements, and the living conditions for Palestinians would only get worse.

I think if they thought someone would have stepped in, they would have by now. The only power that can make a difference in the conflict is the US, and up to this point, it has shown itself incapable, or unwilling, to a fair broker.