What should we do with Islam?

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Sir, I attended a Rabbinical Seminary for 8 years of my life, I could sit down and talk to you for a really long time about these issues, and I could probably teach about alot you have never even heard of. My blanket statement before, had nothing to do with you intelligence, I said you have no clue about Judaism. I still think so. However, it would be ridiculous to argue these issues on an internet forum.

I have never met a religion that can admit that it's core beliefs have changed over time. The fact that your formal Judaic education and culture deny the changes that have occured in Judaic beliefs is not proof that alterations to the religions beliefs did not occur. In reality the Judaic faith went through a least two distinct phases where there was a fundemental and substantial change in theological views. Like any religion those changes are explained away as a clarification of belief by god and that really they were the same thing. Religious theologians spend their lives justifing and compling apologetic explanations for these shifts in belief.

I am not commenting on the specific issues in this thread other than to comment on historical reality vs. religious belief.

Okay.
Obviously I don't agree with that, but that's me. You believe what you wish and I'll believe what I do.

Let me clarify, I was not commenting on any of the allegations contained in this thread. If we could sit and discuss it I could show your the historical point where beliefs shifted, the shift is subtle and easily ignored but it was a fundemental shift in the nature of god. If I remember correctly Joshua was the catalyst for the change. The change is well documented in A book by Karen Armstrong.

You may not agree with the History as religion doesn't often wish to consider history but my position isn't one of belief, it's of historical evidence.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Sir, I attended a Rabbinical Seminary for 8 years of my life, I could sit down and talk to you for a really long time about these issues, and I could probably teach about alot you have never even heard of. My blanket statement before, had nothing to do with you intelligence, I said you have no clue about Judaism. I still think so. However, it would be ridiculous to argue these issues on an internet forum.

I have never met a religion that can admit that it's core beliefs have changed over time. The fact that your formal Judaic education and culture deny the changes that have occured in Judaic beliefs is not proof that alterations to the religions beliefs did not occur. In reality the Judaic faith went through a least two distinct phases where there was a fundemental and substantial change in theological views. Like any religion those changes are explained away as a clarification of belief by god and that really they were the same thing. Religious theologians spend their lives justifing and compling apologetic explanations for these shifts in belief.

I am not commenting on the specific issues in this thread other than to comment on historical reality vs. religious belief.

Okay.
Obviously I don't agree with that, but that's me. You believe what you wish and I'll believe what I do.

Let me clarify, I was not commenting on any of the allegations contained in this thread. If we could sit and discuss it I could show your the historical point where beliefs shifted, the shift is subtle and easily ignored but it was a fundemental shift in the nature of god. If I remember correctly Joshua was the catalyst for the change. The change is well documented in A book by Karen Armstrong.

You may not agree with the History as religion doesn't often wish to consider history but my position isn't one of belief, it's of historical evidence.

I don't wish to be drawn into an in-depth theological argument here, but I'm just curious as to which beliefs you are referring to that changed. What were they originally and what did they change to in Joshua's time?

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Sir, I attended a Rabbinical Seminary for 8 years of my life, I could sit down and talk to you for a really long time about these issues, and I could probably teach about alot you have never even heard of. My blanket statement before, had nothing to do with you intelligence, I said you have no clue about Judaism. I still think so. However, it would be ridiculous to argue these issues on an internet forum.

I have never met a religion that can admit that it's core beliefs have changed over time. The fact that your formal Judaic education and culture deny the changes that have occured in Judaic beliefs is not proof that alterations to the religions beliefs did not occur. In reality the Judaic faith went through a least two distinct phases where there was a fundemental and substantial change in theological views. Like any religion those changes are explained away as a clarification of belief by god and that really they were the same thing. Religious theologians spend their lives justifing and compling apologetic explanations for these shifts in belief.

I am not commenting on the specific issues in this thread other than to comment on historical reality vs. religious belief.

Okay.
Obviously I don't agree with that, but that's me. You believe what you wish and I'll believe what I do.

Let me clarify, I was not commenting on any of the allegations contained in this thread. If we could sit and discuss it I could show your the historical point where beliefs shifted, the shift is subtle and easily ignored but it was a fundemental shift in the nature of god. If I remember correctly Joshua was the catalyst for the change. The change is well documented in A book by Karen Armstrong.

You may not agree with the History as religion doesn't often wish to consider history but my position isn't one of belief, it's of historical evidence.

I don't wish to be drawn into an in-depth theological argument here, but I'm just curious as to which beliefs you are referring to that changed. What were they originally and what did they change to in Joshua's time?

While Rahvin is absolutely right about religions changing, why don't you look at my examples instead of asking him? I've given you several. I bet you either didn't know those information until now because they are historical, not religious. Last time I heard, seminaries don't teach history, they teach beliefs, which are two different creatures. All this goes to show that not only do Jews change their core beliefs over time, but that they may have even borrowed from one of their pseudo-progenies.

Like I told Justin, you need to differentiate between history and beliefs. I hate to sound crass but if you're an orthodox Jew, maybe you had no business discussing history.

 

[FrodoB]

It's funny how we all talk about religion in historical terms when we really don't know what happened in the past. Many of us rely on books wriiten by people that probably had an agenda. I personally found clarity when I stopped being "religious" and started to become spiritual. Take from each faith what feels best to you. Look at the concept of hell in Christianity. What God would create life that is doomed to eternal damnation? I really believe that hell was a concept used to put fear in the hearts of the masses during the days of the early church. This fear made these people turn to the church for "salvation."

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

It isn't that their religion needs to be *controlled*, it's that these people, the extremists, need to learn to control themselves and not inflict their beliefs on others through violent means. They need to become confident enough that they are right that they don't *need* to convert or kill those who disagree with them. They need a government that recognizes people have rights regardless of religion adn that the initiation of unprovoked violence is unacceptable. You have no right to kill someone for having an opinion.

That said, I suspect that a similar thing will happen to Islam as has happened to Christianity under Western (which is to say Greco-Roman) civilization, where it's become watered down and is more of a social glue than anything else. Perhaps America's greatest achievement was to create a nation where men were free to disagree and the law was established to protect their right to do so without fear of violence from their neighbors.

Jason

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: Dari
Since the days of the mahdi of the Sudan, Islam has been regarded as a renegade religion. Various attempts to control it have come to naught. Continuing that tradition is the war against terrorism. As the world is consolidated and more power comes into the hands of a few via varying unions, the rebels will have less places to run and hide. Eventually, the real fire may be put out but others (imitators and fabricators) may take her place. Will Islam eventually follow Judaism, where it borrows certain aspects of Christianity and becomes wholly Westernized? Will it morph into a new religion? Or will it stay in the trenches, battling against the inevitable. Either way, something must give.

I bet the Nazis pondered the same question about Jews during the early 1930's

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Sir, I attended a Rabbinical Seminary for 8 years of my life, I could sit down and talk to you for a really long time about these issues, and I could probably teach about alot you have never even heard of. My blanket statement before, had nothing to do with you intelligence, I said you have no clue about Judaism. I still think so. However, it would be ridiculous to argue these issues on an internet forum.

I have never met a religion that can admit that it's core beliefs have changed over time. The fact that your formal Judaic education and culture deny the changes that have occured in Judaic beliefs is not proof that alterations to the religions beliefs did not occur. In reality the Judaic faith went through a least two distinct phases where there was a fundemental and substantial change in theological views. Like any religion those changes are explained away as a clarification of belief by god and that really they were the same thing. Religious theologians spend their lives justifing and compling apologetic explanations for these shifts in belief.

I am not commenting on the specific issues in this thread other than to comment on historical reality vs. religious belief.

Okay.
Obviously I don't agree with that, but that's me. You believe what you wish and I'll believe what I do.

Let me clarify, I was not commenting on any of the allegations contained in this thread. If we could sit and discuss it I could show your the historical point where beliefs shifted, the shift is subtle and easily ignored but it was a fundemental shift in the nature of god. If I remember correctly Joshua was the catalyst for the change. The change is well documented in A book by Karen Armstrong.

You may not agree with the History as religion doesn't often wish to consider history but my position isn't one of belief, it's of historical evidence.

I don't wish to be drawn into an in-depth theological argument here, but I'm just curious as to which beliefs you are referring to that changed. What were they originally and what did they change to in Joshua's time?

While Rahvin is absolutely right about religions changing, why don't you look at my examples instead of asking him? I've given you several. I bet you either didn't know those information until now because they are historical, not religious. Last time I heard, seminaries don't teach history, they teach beliefs, which are two different creatures. All this goes to show that not only do Jews change their core beliefs over time, but that they may have even borrowed from one of their pseudo-progenies.

Like I told Justin, you need to differentiate between history and beliefs. I hate to sound crass but if you're an orthodox Jew, maybe you had no business discussing history.

You are talking about the history of my religion. Yes, I've been taught that exstensively. But even if I wasn't, don't make assumptions of what I know or what I don't know based on my religious beliefs. It's ridiculous to the extreme. You know nothing about me.