What should we do with Islam?

[CarltheUnholy]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: CarltheUnholy

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
MMM.. i think that every religion was INTENDED to be and do good. I don't think that Islam was necessarily an EVIL religion, although I do think it is distorted and abused, by its own followers.

A religion should be separated from its followers actions.

Yes, as I have stated before, I think Islam needs major reform, but the Title of this thread may be a wee bit offensive - to me, at least it sounds like its a PROBLEM. I think we should look closely if the religion itself is a problem, or if its practitioners are.

And Christianity has not been abused by its followers?

The Crusades, the Holy Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the wholesale slaughter of civilizations such as the Aztecs... Even modern ideological oppression over a woman's right to choose, or the right for gays to marry, are all examples of how supposedly enlightened Christians have done immesuarable evil against their fellow man.

Face it, more people have been murdered in the name of God than in the name of all other causes put together.

I can't speak about the Crusades, Inquisition, or Witch Trials (which were very small in the context of Christianity worldwide), however what do you think, that it is better to do away with religions? Is that what you are proposing?

You point out all the bad aspects, but fail to point out the GOOD having a faith is... charities, good to humankind, morals, etc. that religion gives... I'm pro choice personally, and think that gays should be able to marry. I'm not overly religious, but I think that like everything in life, one should maintain a balance. We should not rely solely on religion [or claim to], as fanatics tend to do. The problem is, that Muslim [and to a lesser extent] Christian faiths believe that if you don't believe in their religion you are: inferior, or, in extreme cases, not worthy of life.

Some ppl have said islam is a way of life, but what major religion is not? all are. but not all major world religions preach what Islam and Christianity preach [about being inferior, or not worth of life if you are not of that religion].

Oh no, I don't propose that religion be eliminated at all. Even as an agnostic, I realize roughly 95% of the world's population need something to cling to, and religion provides it.

All I am saying is that: Most religions have had their dark days. Radical and fanatical fundamentalists who refuse to see the rights of other people have gone too far. But then again, if they hadn't gone too far in the name of religion, it probably would have been in the name of something else. Causes doesn't make psychotics, psychotics just love causes.

I believe in freedom. Freedom to choose, freedom to be equal. I believe in these freedoms because the moral code I follow, though in agreement with several tenets of many religions, has come from within me, and not some belief in an invisible man which can be twisted and used by others to fulfill their own needs. The good that religion provides in this world, the bad that it provides, is a well-orchestrated mass delusion. People are good, not because of their god, but because of their heart. Similarly, people are bad because they want to be bad. Though I am undertain about what may come after we die, I don't believe in God.... yet I am a good person.

And the grand majority of Muslims do not believe people of other faiths are inferior. True Muslims believe in peace with your fellow man. Yes, of course there are teachings in the Koran that point to other people being unworthy. But then again, so does the Christian bible. So does the Torah. The Buddhists are probably the only organized religion where someone isn't demanding someone's blood.

 

[ThePresence]

Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

I am upping this thread for nomination to most ignorant of the year.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

I am upping this thread for nomination to most ignorant of the year.

I think I would agree with that.

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

I am upping this thread for nomination to most ignorant of the year.

I think I would agree with that.

This is like the 4th time in three weeks I believe.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

I am upping this thread for nomination to most ignorant of the year.

I think I would agree with that.

This is like the 4th time in three weeks I believe.

Armageddon is here.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Islam has been at war with Christianity since it's inception. In fact if it weren't for Charles Martels and the Franks (the modern day French) Europe might be a Muslim Continent and we as a country might not even exist.

A good bit of credit is due to the actions of Vlad the Impaler in stopping the ottoman invasion of europe. Through his lifetime he prevented the sultan (forget his name) of the ottoman empire from advancing beyond the baltics and after the sultan died his successor was much less interested in the conquest of europe.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Islam has been at war with Christianity since it's inception. In fact if it weren't for Charles Martels and the Franks (the modern day French) Europe might be a Muslim Continent and we as a country might not even exist.

The French saved us!?! :Q

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

OK, why don't you give me a clue then? Where in the Torah does it mention Heaven and Hell? As for Christianity and Judaism, no one doubts that the former borrowed from the latter. However, that doesn't mean that Judaism didn't borrow from the former as well. Furthermore, the many beliefs in Judaism were heavily borrowed from the surrounding religions before and after the Babylonian exile. For example, it was only after the Jews went into exile (to Babylon) that they started believing in God as an omnipresent God. Before that, they considered him to be a "God of the Jews." In fact, the Jews that went into exile to Elephantine (Sudan) and later, Ethiopia, continued to believe that there was a god for each people. Another borrowing came in the form of the story of Noah (which they got from their Iraqi neighbors). More came from the Demotic Egyptian/Ethiopian rituals. Even the word "hebrew" came from Demotic Egyptian "hibri", which means wanderer

You may be able to use the Torah as a historical reference, but it does no one any good. All the aforementioned info shows that I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: What I'm also trying to show you is that if Judaism has no problem with copying/taking from (or being influenced by) different cultures, what's with the arrogance and attitude that it can't borrow from Christianity?

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: Dari


Heaven as in "heaven and earth"? Or heaven as in "heaven and hell"? Those are two different heavens. But let me make myself clear. Until Christianity came along, Jews did not believe that the good would go to heaven and the bad would go to hell. That was a product of the first Christians, who used heaven and hell as a justifiable meatphor for the sufferings by the hands of the Romans.

We still don't believe in it. It is up to G_d on where we go once we die. Judaism is a religion that is really concerned with this realm, not a heaven or hell.

Care to refute what Strk said as well? Seems like there's a conflicting story as to whether or not Jews believe in Heaven or Hell. Perhaps it's because the belief came after Christians accepted the notion?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

OK, why don't you give me a clue then? Where in the Torah does it mention Heaven and Hell? As for Christianity and Judaism, no one doubts that the former borrowed from the latter. However, that doesn't mean that Judaism didn't borrow from the former as well. Furthermore, the many beliefs in Judaism were heavily borrowed from the surrounding religions before and after the Babylonian exile. For example, it was only after the Jews went into exile (to Babylon) that they started believing in God as an omnipresent God. Before that, they considered him to be a "God of the Jews." In fact, the Jews that went into exile to Elephantine (Sudan) and later, Ethiopia, continued to believe that there was a god for each people. Another borrowing came in the form of the story of Noah (which they got from their Iraqi neighbors). More came from the Demotic Egyptian/Ethiopian rituals. Even the word "hebrew" came from Demotic Egyptian "hibri", which means wanderer

You may be able to use the Torah as a historical reference, but it does no one any good. All the aforementioned info shows that I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: What I'm also trying to show you is that if Judaism has no problem with copying/taking from (or being influenced by) different cultures, what's with the arrogance and attitude that it can't borrow from Christianity?

This may sound like a copout to you, but I really don't want to be drawn into a whole discussion about things I've learned since childhood and about which you probably have no inkling. Really, I have neither the patience nor the inclination to to start explaining the very fundamentals of my faith to someone that actually thinks that Judaism borrows elements of Christianity. That may sound like I am running from your questions, like you stumped me, but I assure you that's not the case. Believe what you wish, I'll believe what I want. It would be completely ridiculous for me to quote a passage from here and there to refute you, because I cannot explain to you the fundamentals of my faith in a few posts on an internet forum. I probably should not have entered this thread, I usually try to keep out of religious threads, for the very reason I just said.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

OK, why don't you give me a clue then? Where in the Torah does it mention Heaven and Hell? As for Christianity and Judaism, no one doubts that the former borrowed from the latter. However, that doesn't mean that Judaism didn't borrow from the former as well. Furthermore, the many beliefs in Judaism were heavily borrowed from the surrounding religions before and after the Babylonian exile. For example, it was only after the Jews went into exile (to Babylon) that they started believing in God as an omnipresent God. Before that, they considered him to be a "God of the Jews." In fact, the Jews that went into exile to Elephantine (Sudan) and later, Ethiopia, continued to believe that there was a god for each people. Another borrowing came in the form of the story of Noah (which they got from their Iraqi neighbors). More came from the Demotic Egyptian/Ethiopian rituals. Even the word "hebrew" came from Demotic Egyptian "hibri", which means wanderer

You may be able to use the Torah as a historical reference, but it does no one any good. All the aforementioned info shows that I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: What I'm also trying to show you is that if Judaism has no problem with copying/taking from (or being influenced by) different cultures, what's with the arrogance and attitude that it can't borrow from Christianity?

This may sound like a copout to you, but I really don't want to be drawn into a whole discussion about things I've learned since childhood and about which you probably have no inkling. Really, I have neither the patience nor the inclination to to start explaining the very fundamentals of my faith to someone that actually thinks that Judaism borrows elements of Christianity. That may sound like I am running from your questions, like you stumped me, but I assure you that's not the case. Believe what you wish, I'll believe what I want. It would be completely ridiculous for me to quote a passage from here and there to refute you, because I cannot explain to you the fundamentals of my faith in a few posts on an internet forum. I probably should not have entered this thread, I usually try to keep out of religious threads, for the very reason I just said.

I certainly don't care about beliefs. Just give me cold, hard, and historical facts to back up your statement. Beliefs mean nothing to me. Evidence and a good timeline would suffice.

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

OK, why don't you give me a clue then? Where in the Torah does it mention Heaven and Hell? As for Christianity and Judaism, no one doubts that the former borrowed from the latter. However, that doesn't mean that Judaism didn't borrow from the former as well. Furthermore, the many beliefs in Judaism were heavily borrowed from the surrounding religions before and after the Babylonian exile. For example, it was only after the Jews went into exile (to Babylon) that they started believing in God as an omnipresent God. Before that, they considered him to be a "God of the Jews." In fact, the Jews that went into exile to Elephantine (Sudan) and later, Ethiopia, continued to believe that there was a god for each people. Another borrowing came in the form of the story of Noah (which they got from their Iraqi neighbors). More came from the Demotic Egyptian/Ethiopian rituals. Even the word "hebrew" came from Demotic Egyptian "hibri", which means wanderer

You may be able to use the Torah as a historical reference, but it does no one any good. All the aforementioned info shows that I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: What I'm also trying to show you is that if Judaism has no problem with copying/taking from (or being influenced by) different cultures, what's with the arrogance and attitude that it can't borrow from Christianity?

This may sound like a copout to you, but I really don't want to be drawn into a whole discussion about things I've learned since childhood and about which you probably have no inkling. Really, I have neither the patience nor the inclination to to start explaining the very fundamentals of my faith to someone that actually thinks that Judaism borrows elements of Christianity. That may sound like I am running from your questions, like you stumped me, but I assure you that's not the case. Believe what you wish, I'll believe what I want. It would be completely ridiculous for me to quote a passage from here and there to refute you, because I cannot explain to you the fundamentals of my faith in a few posts on an internet forum. I probably should not have entered this thread, I usually try to keep out of religious threads, for the very reason I just said.

I certainly don't care about beliefs. Just give me cold, hard, and historical facts to back up your statement. Beliefs mean nothing to me. Evidence and a good timeline would suffice.

You don't get it do you?? You can't say what other people believe.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

OK, why don't you give me a clue then? Where in the Torah does it mention Heaven and Hell? As for Christianity and Judaism, no one doubts that the former borrowed from the latter. However, that doesn't mean that Judaism didn't borrow from the former as well. Furthermore, the many beliefs in Judaism were heavily borrowed from the surrounding religions before and after the Babylonian exile. For example, it was only after the Jews went into exile (to Babylon) that they started believing in God as an omnipresent God. Before that, they considered him to be a "God of the Jews." In fact, the Jews that went into exile to Elephantine (Sudan) and later, Ethiopia, continued to believe that there was a god for each people. Another borrowing came in the form of the story of Noah (which they got from their Iraqi neighbors). More came from the Demotic Egyptian/Ethiopian rituals. Even the word "hebrew" came from Demotic Egyptian "hibri", which means wanderer

You may be able to use the Torah as a historical reference, but it does no one any good. All the aforementioned info shows that I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: What I'm also trying to show you is that if Judaism has no problem with copying/taking from (or being influenced by) different cultures, what's with the arrogance and attitude that it can't borrow from Christianity?

This may sound like a copout to you, but I really don't want to be drawn into a whole discussion about things I've learned since childhood and about which you probably have no inkling. Really, I have neither the patience nor the inclination to to start explaining the very fundamentals of my faith to someone that actually thinks that Judaism borrows elements of Christianity. That may sound like I am running from your questions, like you stumped me, but I assure you that's not the case. Believe what you wish, I'll believe what I want. It would be completely ridiculous for me to quote a passage from here and there to refute you, because I cannot explain to you the fundamentals of my faith in a few posts on an internet forum. I probably should not have entered this thread, I usually try to keep out of religious threads, for the very reason I just said.

I certainly don't care about beliefs. Just give me cold, hard, and historical facts to back up your statement. Beliefs mean nothing to me. Evidence and a good timeline would suffice.

You don't get it do you?? You can't say what other people believe.

Fine. Believe whatever you want. Just don't call me a liar or uninformed when I discuss history and beliefs. Try to distinguish between the two and not give blanket statements .

You have a habit of underestimating others. I'll let this minor issue die so long as you hold back your assumptions and ask questions rather than presume someone else's intelligence on an issue you hold close to your heart.

 

[Witling]

This thread got established before I got a chance to jump in. It took me a while to realize that, on this board, no one reads through the previous posts before shooting off their mouth. But, to add my two cents.

The sheer arogance of the question boggles my mind.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Dari, you know very little about Judaism.
I am an Orthodox Jew, yes I believein Heaven and Hell, and we believed in it long before jesus was born. Christianity borrowed many aspects of Judaism, not the other way around. Please get a clue.

OK, why don't you give me a clue then? Where in the Torah does it mention Heaven and Hell? As for Christianity and Judaism, no one doubts that the former borrowed from the latter. However, that doesn't mean that Judaism didn't borrow from the former as well. Furthermore, the many beliefs in Judaism were heavily borrowed from the surrounding religions before and after the Babylonian exile. For example, it was only after the Jews went into exile (to Babylon) that they started believing in God as an omnipresent God. Before that, they considered him to be a "God of the Jews." In fact, the Jews that went into exile to Elephantine (Sudan) and later, Ethiopia, continued to believe that there was a god for each people. Another borrowing came in the form of the story of Noah (which they got from their Iraqi neighbors). More came from the Demotic Egyptian/Ethiopian rituals. Even the word "hebrew" came from Demotic Egyptian "hibri", which means wanderer

You may be able to use the Torah as a historical reference, but it does no one any good. All the aforementioned info shows that I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: What I'm also trying to show you is that if Judaism has no problem with copying/taking from (or being influenced by) different cultures, what's with the arrogance and attitude that it can't borrow from Christianity?

This may sound like a copout to you, but I really don't want to be drawn into a whole discussion about things I've learned since childhood and about which you probably have no inkling. Really, I have neither the patience nor the inclination to to start explaining the very fundamentals of my faith to someone that actually thinks that Judaism borrows elements of Christianity. That may sound like I am running from your questions, like you stumped me, but I assure you that's not the case. Believe what you wish, I'll believe what I want. It would be completely ridiculous for me to quote a passage from here and there to refute you, because I cannot explain to you the fundamentals of my faith in a few posts on an internet forum. I probably should not have entered this thread, I usually try to keep out of religious threads, for the very reason I just said.

I certainly don't care about beliefs. Just give me cold, hard, and historical facts to back up your statement. Beliefs mean nothing to me. Evidence and a good timeline would suffice.

You don't get it do you?? You can't say what other people believe.

Fine. Believe whatever you want. Just don't call me a liar or uninformed when I discuss history and beliefs. Try to distinguish between the two and not give blanket statements .

You have a habit of underestimating others. I'll let this minor issue die so long as you hold back your assumptions and ask questions rather than presume someone else's intelligence on an issue you hold close to your heart.

Sir, I attended a Rabbinical Seminary for 8 years of my life, I could sit down and talk to you for a really long time about these issues, and I could probably teach about alot you have never even heard of. My blanket statement before, had nothing to do with you intelligence, I said you have no clue about Judaism. I still think so. However, it would be ridiculous to argue these issues on an internet forum.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Witling
This thread got established before I got a chance to jump in. It took me a while to realize that, on this board, no one reads through the previous posts before shooting off their mouth. But, to add my two cents.

The sheer arogance of the question boggles my mind.

The question is my way of asking "What can muslims and non-muslims do in the reformation of Islam?"

There, does it sound more tame? Fact is, no matter how it is posed, whether by the wahhabis of Mecca or the Satanists in San Francisco, Islamic culture cannot continue this decline. What was once a great civilization has turned into a global problem. Something has to be done.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Witling
This thread got established before I got a chance to jump in. It took me a while to realize that, on this board, no one reads through the previous posts before shooting off their mouth. But, to add my two cents.

The sheer arogance of the question boggles my mind.

are there differences between cults? or is one arrogant to judge difference?

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Why won't people accept the fact that there is no god and our existence is entirely random.

 

[UCSDHappyAsian]

Islam is too extreme~ religious beliefs shouldn't involve that much political and violence... therefore, i really think Islam people are being used as a tool for a leader to regulate its people and recruite people.

 

[StormRider]

I think there are aspects of Islam that makes it more prone to develop extremists.

1) Muslims believe the Koran is the direct recitation from God to Muhammad. Therefore, there is a higher probability that a believer would follow the Koran more literally instead of using it as a guildline and using common sense. And my feeling is that people who follow the book (Bible, Koran, whatever) literally are generally more intollerant of others.

2) Islam is too closely interweave with politics. From the begining there was always a close association between politics and Islam. Muhammad was a ruler of a land. This land was ruled by Islamic law. This increases the probability that believers would want to be ruled under Islamic laws and not to separate church and state. From my experience, it's better to have a separation of church and state -- doing otherwise can cause problems for non-believers of that particular religion.

 

[0roo0roo]

well nice to see someone gets it.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Sir, I attended a Rabbinical Seminary for 8 years of my life, I could sit down and talk to you for a really long time about these issues, and I could probably teach about alot you have never even heard of. My blanket statement before, had nothing to do with you intelligence, I said you have no clue about Judaism. I still think so. However, it would be ridiculous to argue these issues on an internet forum.

I have never met a religion that can admit that it's core beliefs have changed over time. The fact that your formal Judaic education and culture deny the changes that have occured in Judaic beliefs is not proof that alterations to the religions beliefs did not occur. In reality the Judaic faith went through a least two distinct phases where there was a fundemental and substantial change in theological views. Like any religion those changes are explained away as a clarification of belief by god and that really they were the same thing. Religious theologians spend their lives justifing and compling apologetic explanations for these shifts in belief.

I am not commenting on the specific issues in this thread other than to comment on historical reality vs. religious belief.

 

[beyoku]

lets join them !:heart:

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Sir, I attended a Rabbinical Seminary for 8 years of my life, I could sit down and talk to you for a really long time about these issues, and I could probably teach about alot you have never even heard of. My blanket statement before, had nothing to do with you intelligence, I said you have no clue about Judaism. I still think so. However, it would be ridiculous to argue these issues on an internet forum.

I have never met a religion that can admit that it's core beliefs have changed over time. The fact that your formal Judaic education and culture deny the changes that have occured in Judaic beliefs is not proof that alterations to the religions beliefs did not occur. In reality the Judaic faith went through a least two distinct phases where there was a fundemental and substantial change in theological views. Like any religion those changes are explained away as a clarification of belief by god and that really they were the same thing. Religious theologians spend their lives justifing and compling apologetic explanations for these shifts in belief.

I am not commenting on the specific issues in this thread other than to comment on historical reality vs. religious belief.

Okay.
Obviously I don't agree with that, but that's me. You believe what you wish and I'll believe what I do.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
We should do nothing with Islam.

I wish we could do something with all the people who live to hate.

Unfortunately, religion is a very easy tool to justify hate.