What if there was no God?

[Cerpin Taxt]

I think this is a good exercise to examine one's own biases and preconceived ideas.

I'm inviting anyone that believes a god exists to describe the ways that they think the world would be different if instead there was no god.

I realize that this is a bit of a lopsided burden on theists, so atheists can feel free to respond with their ideas of what the world would be like if a god really existed.

Happy Friday!

 

[moonbogg]

My answer is less straight forward that it would have been before, because I'm all confused about my position at the moment, but here goes. Really, I'll do my best but don't expect it to make sense. I have no definition for god, so sorry about that.

If there was a God, the universe, or the larger structure of which this universe is a part, would contain the potential for experience or consciousness.

If there was no God, there would be nothing, but if there was a universe without a god, it would not contain the potential for experience or consciousness.

Not sure I even agree with myself. Like I said, I am confused at the moment. All in flux and shaken up.

 

[master_shake_]

even if it was scientifically proven with maths and facts there would still be people willing to cling to the fallacy of an invisible man on a cloud.

 

[Retro Rob]

Hmm..

If there was no God, then the world would probably be worse off, perhaps a lot worse since belief in God has tremendous influence on the actions/inactions of people who believe.

What the existence of God affects more profoundly, in my opinion, is the outlook humans have on the future of the world, and of their own lives. This outlook affects people's happiness and well-being. Without it, the future becomes just nothing but a pointless existence, and hence, there is no ultimate reason for anything -- no reason to do good, etc, no reason to not kill your neighbor and take his food if you need it.

To me, its like having a job...the purpose of a job for many people is to provide basic needs. Without this purpose, there is no reason to go to work everyday and perfrom well, so I'd have no incentive or reason to treat my bosses and co-workers with respect and dignity.

I think this analogy can be applied to a world with/without God. God gives ultimate purpose to a world, and takes it from a world without his existence.

This is interesting, though.

 

[JD50]

Hmm..

If there was no God, then the world would probably be worse off, perhaps a lot worse since belief in God has tremendous influence on the actions/inactions of people who believe.

What the existence of God affects more profoundly, in my opinion, is the outlook humans have on the future of the world, and of their own lives. This outlook affects people's happiness and well-being. Without it, the future becomes just nothing but a pointless existence, and hence, there is no ultimate reason for anything -- no reason to do good, etc, no reason to not kill your neighbor and take his food if you need it.

To me, its like having a job...the purpose of a job for many people is to provide basic needs. Without this purpose, there is no reason to go to work everyday and perfrom well, so I'd have no incentive or reason to treat my bosses and co-workers with respect and dignity.

I think this analogy can be applied to a world with/without God. God gives ultimate purpose to a world, and takes it from a world without his existence.

This is interesting, though.

That's really not what the question was. You're talking about belief.

Also, the only reason you "do good" is because (in your opinion) there is a God? The only thing stopping you from killing someone is God? Wow, scary.

 

[Raizinman]

If there was a God, the Avacado seed would have been made smaller.

If there is no God, how are there so many species of life?

 

[Retro Rob]

That's really not what the question was. You're talking about belief.

Also, the only reason you "do good" is because (in your opinion) there is a God? The only thing stopping you from killing someone is God? Wow, scary.

I'm speaking of ultimate purpose for the human race in general.

And the question is inherently a philisophical one, so I can go anywhere I want with my answer.

 

[JD50]

I'm speaking of ultimate purpose for the human race in general.

And the question is inherently a philisophical one, so I can go anywhere I want with my answer.

Ugh... ok, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the question asked.

I'm still wondering how God stops you from killing people and stealing from your neighbor.

Edit - I'll let Cerpin clarify his question, I could be wrong with regards to his intent. Lets say people that believe in God still believe in him, but he doesn't actually exist. How would his nonexistence change things?

 

[Retro Rob]

I'm still wondering how God stops you from killing people and stealing from your neighbor.

You're missing the point. The morality behind not stealing from your neighbor etc, originates with God as far as I am concerned -- you can disgree with that if you choose.

So, without God, there is simply no "Law" of morality. That's a world I personally envision without God.

I didn't come right out with that to avoid dogmatism and oversimplifiying my view of a godless world, so I should have be more clearer.

 

[JD50]

You're missing the point. The morality behind not stealing from your neighbor etc, originates with God as far as I am concerned -- you can disgree with that if you choose.

So, without God, there is simply no "Law" of morality. That's a world I personally envision without God.

So... without God, you would steal from your neighbor and kill people? What about the people that already steal and kill?

 

[Retro Rob]

Edit - I'll let Cerpin clarify his question, I could be wrong with regards to his intent. Lets say people that believe in God still believe in him, but he doesn't actually exist. How would his nonexistence change things?

I don't know, but its good to recongnize that we believe that without God, there is no universe and by extension, no intelligent life.

So your question doesn't make much sense to us.

That's like asking: "without water, what would we drink?". Nothing, because we wouldn't be alive. That's the same way your question would be answered.

 

[Retro Rob]

So... without God, you would steal from your neighbor and kill people? What about the people that already steal and kill?

At the end, everyone has a choice. Without God, I would steal from my neighbor becasue the whole issue of morality wouldn't exist, so it wouldn't be called "stealing" -- it would simply be "living".

 

[moonbogg]

Pretty sure the OP's intent was to get people to realize that a universe without God would look exactly like the one we have now. I fully agree, but this consciousness thing has me all screwed up.

 

[Retro Rob]

Pretty sure the OP's intent was to get people to realize that a universe without God would look exactly like the one we have now. I fully agree, but this consciousness thing has me all screwed up.

Of course that's what he wanted to show, but for that to be true, it would have to be shown that God doesn't exists.

That's precisely why this is not a scientifc question. Although the question is very interesting, there simply is no real answer to it.

 

[JD50]

At the end, everyone has a choice. Without God, I would steal from my neighbor becasue the whole issue of morality wouldn't exist, so it wouldn't be called "stealing" -- it would simply be "living".

So you think God injected morality into everyone, even if they don't believe in him?

 

[Zodiark1593]

According to the laws of physics, neither matter nor energy can be destroyed. Our being is essentially that energy. Memories are held via matter (the brain). Now, what does everyone make of that?

The closest thing I could equate to a God is that energy itself (in w/e state) has a consiousness, however, humans serve the perpuse of retaining memory as energy cannot retain information. So in effect, we are the same whole.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Hmm..

If there was no God, then the world would probably be worse off, perhaps a lot worse since belief in God has tremendous influence on the actions/inactions of people who believe.

Don't you agree that people's beliefs in gods have little to do with whether or not a god actually exists? I mean, aren't there a plethora of religions that worship gods which you do not believe to exist?

What the existence of God affects more profoundly, in my opinion, is the outlook humans have on the future of the world, and of their own lives. This outlook affects people's happiness and well-being. Without it, the future becomes just nothing but a pointless existence, and hence, there is no ultimate reason for anything -- no reason to do good, etc, no reason to not kill your neighbor and take his food if you need it.

To me, its like having a job...the purpose of a job for many people is to provide basic needs. Without this purpose, there is no reason to go to work everyday and perfrom well, so I'd have no incentive or reason to treat my bosses and co-workers with respect and dignity.

Where do people who believe in "false gods" get their sense of purpose?

I think this analogy can be applied to a world with/without God. God gives ultimate purpose to a world, and takes it from a world without his existence.

How does that work? How is purpose "given" to someone else?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Edit - I'll let Cerpin clarify his question, I could be wrong with regards to his intent. Lets say people that believe in God still believe in him, but he doesn't actually exist. How would his nonexistence change things?

Pretty sure the OP's intent was to get people to realize that a universe without God would look exactly like the one we have now. I fully agree, but this consciousness thing has me all screwed up.

Frankly, I was just trying to spur some kind of discussion, so I'll welcome any kinds of responses. In particular, I guess you could say I was more interested in empirical descriptions, not necessarily how people would feel about the lack of a god, but whatever.

 

[jumpncrash]

ummm...if you're older than 10, I think you're not supposed to have imaginary friends

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I don't know, but its good to recongnize that we believe that without God, there is no universe and by extension, no intelligent life.

It is your contention that it is impossible for a universe to exist without a god? Upon what basis could you substantiate such a claim?

That's like asking: "without water, what would we drink?". Nothing, because we wouldn't be alive. That's the same way your question would be answered.

Why couldn't there be a different form of life based on different elemental configurations? Instead of carbon-based life, we could have silicon-based life. Why not?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

That's precisely why this is not a scientifc question. Although the question is very interesting, there simply is no real answer to it.

I'm not looking for answers necessarily grounded in reality. I'm asking for people to describe what they believe is the extent to which the state of the world depends -- or does not depend -- on a god existing.

Naturally, I will scrutinize those responses by exploring the extent to which they are consistent or inconsistent with other facts that we know or suppose about the world, but that's what discussion is, isn't it?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

If there was no God, there would be nothing, but if there was a universe without a god, it would not contain the potential for experience or consciousness.

I'm curious about why you think this could be the case. Couldn't consciousness be as fundamental as mass/energy?

 

[Retro Rob]

Don't you agree that people's beliefs in gods have little to do with whether or not a god actually exists? I mean, aren't there a plethora of religions that worship gods which you do not believe to exist?

Of course, but I think that a discussion like this would almost require what one beliefs be discussed due to the lack of direct empirical evidence for God's existence. Many gods simply means that mankind is search for some truth regarding God. I think this is a good thing.

Where do people who believe in "false gods" get their sense of purpose?

From the same place I believe to have gotten mine. Just because we have tremendous religious diversity in our world doesn't mean that there is no God, or one true religion, or one true source of knowledge.

If a cop shows up to a crime scene and gets 40 different accounts of the same crime, that doesn't mean that no crime happened, much less meaning no criminal exist. It simply means that the cop has to do some investigating to get the more accurate story.

I look at religion in a similar fashion. Though I don't think you were going here, I just felt the need to further expound on my response.

How does that work? How is purpose "given" to someone else?

I don't know, but a parent *can* give kids purpose. If you want your children to be givers and healers in society, your raise them in a environment which lends to it.

Though I don't claim to know this for a fact, I think God would give humans purpose by endowing them with an instinctive sense of XYZ, and humans do the rest by naturally gravitating toward XYZ. This can become our ultimate purpose.

 

[moonbogg]

I'm curious about why you think this could be the case. Couldn't consciousness be as fundamental as mass/energy?

It could be fundamental in that way, and if it were proven to be fundamental like that, then I would strongly believe in God.

 

[Retro Rob]

It is your contention that it is impossible for a universe to exist without a god? Upon what basis could you substantiate such a claim?

It's not out of the question that there is intelligence behind the Universe, etc.

People like to say that "the universe wants to kill us, so there can be no 'intelligent designer' behind it" -- I'd like to counter and say that we can die if we drink gasoline. Does that mean gasoline wasn't "designed"?

Of course not! That simply means gasoline isn't for human consumption.

Perhaps the universe isn't for human habitation or travel, perhaps God has the Universe for another reason that we're not aware of...just because we die damn near instantly when we go out there unprotected doesn't mean it wasn't created -- it could simply mean its not meant for us, like gasoline isn't for human consumption.

Why couldn't there be a different form of life based on different elemental configurations? Instead of carbon-based life, we could have silicon-based life. Why not?

I didn't say there couldn't be...I'm simply speaking of what's required for life on earth.