What if there was no God?

[SMOGZINN]

According to the laws of physics, neither matter nor energy can be destroyed. Our being is essentially that energy. Memories are held via matter (the brain). Now, what does everyone make of that?

Matter is energy. It is the pattern of the matter that is the essential me. When I die it is not that some energy leaves me, it is that the pattern is interrupted. If the pattern can be restored so can I. I am the signal not the energy.

The closest thing I could equate to a God is that energy itself (in w/e state) has a consiousness, however, humans serve the perpuse of retaining memory as energy cannot retain information. So in effect, we are the same whole.

Consciousness can not exist with out thought, thought can not exist with out memory.
If energy is conscious then it is the pattern that matters, not the energy itself.

 

[SMOGZINN]

what the world would be like if a god really existed.

This is, to me, an interesting question. We, as atheists, talk a lot about how a universe with a God would look exactly the same, but I don't think that is true. I think our world has ample proof that no god exists. I see it in everything around me. Let me give some examples of how a world with a God would be different.

There would be no question if a god exists. We might have freewill to ignore the teachings of this god, or might question if he is worthy of our worship, or even misled into believing in his Nemesis but we would not have a question of his existence. His existence would be indelibly writ on our consciousness. No one would ever think to ask the question 'Is there a god?"

There would be no random death. Life would have meaning. There would be no people born in places where they have no chance, where life is short, harsh, and miserable. No children born with birth defects so horrible that they die after a few hours of laboring to breath. No 2 year old baby's with fatal brain tumors that won't live to learn their first word. Life would come with at least a modicum of mercy.

This is just a few of the things I think would be different. When I think on it I can come up with hundreds more.

 

[DrPizza]

If there WAS a god, I think things on Earth might be a little better designed. Humans wouldn't be filled with tons of junk DNA. The solar system would have been designed so that no harmful radiation and charged particles were getting through our atmosphere damaging humans, and potentially leading to skin cancers. We wouldn't be faced with diseases like Ebola.

Innocent little children wouldn't be suffering through maladies such as leukemia. They wouldn't know of AIDS, anemia, asthma, cancer, cystic fibrosis, chicken pox, diabetes, downs syndrome, etc.

A god could intervene before people are harmed. You'd think if the government can punish you based on intent, that a God would be able to determine, "hey, he's carrying a pile of weapons into a crowded theater and is going to shoot a lot of people. That's his free will. How about a little lightning bolt to stop him in his tracks?"

If a god could create the Earth, you'd think he'd be good enough to create one where tornadoes weren't killing innocent people. One were hurricanes wouldn't bring in 20 foot storm surges to take away random lives.


A God who cared might show he cared. A God who was vengeful might show he's vengeful.

 

[Retro Rob]

We wouldn't be faced with diseases like Ebola.

What I think is faulty about this is that its built on the premise that God is controlling the world...I'd find it interesting, according to my beliefs anyway, that that simply isn't true.

Innocent little children wouldn't be suffering through maladies such as leukemia. They wouldn't know of AIDS, anemia, asthma, cancer, cystic fibrosis, chicken pox, diabetes, downs syndrome, etc.

You're turning an intellectual discussion into an emotional discussion.

A god could intervene before people are harmed. You'd think if the government can punish you based on intent, that a God would be able to determine, "hey, he's carrying a pile of weapons into a crowded theater and is going to shoot a lot of people. That's his free will. How about a little lightning bolt to stop him in his tracks?"

God has good reason, again according to what I believe, to not intervene.

Secondly, the same argument can be made to show that cops don't exists, because there is violence in the world, or that medicine doesn't exist, because there is ebola in the world killing people.

 

[Retro Rob]

There would be no question if a god exists.

How do you know that this god hasn't set a time in which to reveal itself?

This point also implies that there has NEVER been any evidence that God exists -- maybe he has good reason for not showing himself now, or maybe he has in the past and will do so again later on...the point is, that no one can know for sure.

So this "no question" could have been answered ages ago, or will be answered in the future. While I do understand your point, this just isn't real convincing.

No one would ever think to ask the question 'Is there a god?"

I'd say that people ask this question simply because they have no personal experience with God. People experienced in something simply don't ask the "is there..." question.

There would be no random death.

Why? Do you know why there is "random death" as it relates to the existence of God?

Life would have meaning. There would be no people born in places where they have no chance, where life is short, harsh, and miserable. No children born with birth defects so horrible that they die after a few hours of laboring to breath. No 2 year old baby's with fatal brain tumors that won't live to learn their first word. Life would come with at least a modicum of mercy.

This is another emotional argument -- these arguments are good at stopping intellectual debate, and rational discussion.

 

[SMOGZINN]

What I think is faulty about this is that its built on the premise that God is controlling the world...I'd find it interesting, according to my beliefs anyway, that that simply isn't true.

You can make a argument that there is a god that is either impotent to fix problems or simply doesn't care. But that still doesn't change the question of why we have to question if he is there at all.

You're turning an intellectual discussion into an emotional discussion.

Not at all. If a God exists then Innocence is not an emotional thing, it is a real state of being.

God has good reason, again according to what I believe, to not intervene.

Not intervene? If He is an omniscient being who set everything in motion then He caused it.

Secondly, the same argument can be made to show that cops don't exists, because there is violence in the world, or that medicine doesn't exist, because there is ebola in the world killing people.

Yes, of course. It shows clearly that no omniscient or omnipotent cops exist. Except that those that do exists stop crime where they are able.

 

[Retro Rob]

You can make a argument that there is a god that is either impotent to fix problems or simply doesn't care. But that still doesn't change the question of why we have to question if he is there at all.

This isn't a binary issue, bro...though I feel you. Let me ask you: If you decided to not go to war to defend your country, does that mean you "don't care" about your country?

The likely answer would be that this isn't your fight, so you wish not to get involved at all, or you could be giving your country a chance to prove its self-proclaimed might -- the might it claims to have without your support.

I think before you go accusing God of "not caring", try finding out the reason why God doesn't intervene. You might be surprised at the answer.

We have questions simply because we are free to have questions -- if there is a god who created us, he has a choice to make us robots or free people.

Not at all. If a God exists then Innocence is not an emotional thing, it is a real state of being.

It is an emotional thing regardless.

Not intervene? If He is an omniscient being who set everything in motion then He caused it.

Ok, if you created the first ever gun (setting shootings in motion) can we blame you and hold you accountable for the actions of murderers who misuse guns?

 

[SMOGZINN]

How do you know that this god hasn't set a time in which to reveal itself?

How is it my fault if He has chosen to not reveal Himself? I search and get no answer.

This point also implies that there has NEVER been any evidence that God exists

No. My argument is that right now, right here, I can honestly question if a god exists. If a singular being infused the entire universe, as at least most monotheistic religions claim, how could I not be aware of this? Why would He allow this? It makes sense to make people choose to worship him or not, but it does not make sense to have to question if there is even something to worship.

So this "no question" could have been answered ages ago, or will be answered in the future.

If it was answered ages ago, he did such a poor job of it that it would have to have been purposeful (of course that is true for anything that a omniscient being does). If it is to be answered in the future, you can't expect people to believe in something you purposefully obscured.

I'd say that people ask this question simply because they have no personal experience with God. People experienced in something simply don't ask the "is there..." question.

Once again, if he exists how is it possible that I have no personal experience with an omniscient, omnipotent God? If it is not possible to not have personal experiance then how is it that I can not KNOW that he exists?
*
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I'm leaving the rest of your message alone, because I think I answered the same basic questions in my other post referring to Dr.Pizza's post. If you think I missed something ask again and I'll be happy to talk about that point.

 

[schmuckley]

Without God there is no ultimate standard of morality,no hope,no motivation that's not perverse.
Just look at how bad people have been getting since schools started teaching that there is no God.
Within is your answer.
This thread is like a big,fresh pile of doggy-poo.
I'm going to step around it.

 

[RandomWords]

If there were no God - the world would be the same except people wouldn't have someone to blame for their actions or blame for just plain bad luck or have a rally point for their cause to kill millions; they would find no comfort through prayer - however - God would be replaced by something to worship, either a man as a king, or something else they create to worship, and thus... people as a whole would stay largely the same and everything listed would still happen. I believe they would do this - because God is something, even if not real - an idea and concept that helps people to feel better or have hope when the world is shit and in a way, many people still need - so without God - the world would still create something to fill this need and the actions of people would largely be the same.

With a God - if everyone knew he actually existed and there was proof - etc - the world might be a little different; if God was actively involved in their lives... but then - you would have to ask - is it THE God or an imposter or just A God... and if just A God - which Gods are you pissing off in the process.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Of course, but I think that a discussion like this would almost require what one beliefs be discussed due to the lack of direct empirical evidence for God's existence. Many gods simply means that mankind is search for some truth regarding God. I think this is a good thing.

I take this to mean that you believe it is impossible for all of the theistic religions of the world to be wrong. I also do not understand how you can assert such a thing while at the same time agreeing with me that mankind's beliefs about god are irrelevant to whether or not a god exists.

From the same place I believe to have gotten mine.

Poeple who believe in false gods and believe that they derive their sense of purpose from those false gods in reality have received their purpose from your true god? Is that what you're saying? Wouldn't they say the same thing about you?

Just because we have tremendous religious diversity in our world doesn't mean that there is no God, or one true religion, or one true source of knowledge.

Who here has made such a claim? Can you point that claim out anywhere?

If a cop shows up to a crime scene and gets 40 different accounts of the same crime, that doesn't mean that no crime happened, much less meaning no criminal exist. It simply means that the cop has to do some investigating to get the more accurate story.

If some number of people claim a crime has happened, but all their stories are inconsistent, most notably with regard to the identity of the alleged criminal, and yet no empirical evidence of a crime exists, does it follow necessarily that there was a crime?

I don't know, but a parent *can* give kids purpose. If you want your children to be givers and healers in society, your raise them in a environment which lends to it.

How does that give them purpose?

Though I don't claim to know this for a fact, I think God would give humans purpose by endowing them with an instinctive sense of XYZ, and humans do the rest by naturally gravitating toward XYZ. This can become our ultimate purpose.

How does that give them purpose?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It could be fundamental in that way, and if it were proven to be fundamental like that, then I would strongly believe in God.

I don't understand how that follows. Mass/energy appears fundamental in that way. Why don't they cause you to strongly believe in God?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It's not out of the question that there is intelligence behind the Universe, etc.

What? How is that supposed to answer my question? Would you care to try again?

People like to say that "the universe wants to kill us, so there can be no 'intelligent designer' behind it" -- I'd like to counter and say that we can die if we drink gasoline. Does that mean gasoline wasn't "designed"?

Generally those arguments are made to illustrate the selective perception of a proponent of intelligent design. Those persons often argue that it is reasonable to infer that the universe was designed for us because the earth is hospitable to our existence. Of course, lacking all intellectual rigor they ignore the fact that in reality the vast, vast, VAST majority of the universe is utterly hostile to our existence.

Of course not! That simply means gasoline isn't for human consumption.

What things in the universe are not designed, Rob? Anything?

Perhaps the universe isn't for human habitation or travel, perhaps God has the Universe for another reason that we're not aware of...just because we die damn near instantly when we go out there unprotected doesn't mean it wasn't created -- it could simply mean its not meant for us, like gasoline isn't for human consumption.

What it means is that arguments which purport to substantiate the existence of a designer based on the conditions of the universe are fallacious arguments.

I didn't say there couldn't be...

Yes, you did. You said "We wouldn't be alive." You do not know that, however. You have not excluded the possibility that we could be alive in an alternative elemental configuration that would not depend upon water.

I'm simply speaking of what's required for life on earth.

Why should I accept your arbitrarily narrowed perspective?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Ok, if you created the first ever gun (setting shootings in motion) can we blame you and hold you accountable for the actions of murderers who misuse guns?

If I am a universe-creator with infallible foreknowledge, I am responsible for EVERYTHING that happens in the universe I decide to create.

 

[Retro Rob]

I take this to mean that you believe it is impossible for all of the theistic religions of the world to be wrong.

No, I mean that to say that it doesn't make all the theistic religions wrong.

I'm sure you're familiar with the oft-made argument that many religions and many 'gods' somehow implies that there is no true religion, or true God.

People who believe in false gods and believe that they derive their sense of purpose from those false gods in reality have received their purpose from your true god? Is that what you're saying? Wouldn't they say the same thing about you?

There can only be ONE true God, just like there can be only one King, or President. You can have vice-presidents, etc, but not two Presidents. If I have the wrong God, so be it...but that doesn't change the fact that there can only be one.

The other gods (if its mine) can only be secondary, and so on.

Who here has made such a claim? Can you point that claim out anywhere?

I was just beating the potential claimant to the punch.

If some number of people claim a crime has happened, but all their stories are inconsistent, most notably with regard to the identity of the alleged criminal, and yet no empirical evidence of a crime exists, does it follow necessarily that there was a crime?

That's why I mentioned that the cop would need to investigate to determine if any evidence exists -- he just doesn't write the accounts off as untrue because they are different in details.

Yet, read any atheist forum or blog, and you'll see this very assertion trotted out again and again...that's why I used this illustration.

How does that give them purpose?


How does that give them purpose?

It gives them something to live for, and an ultimate goal to achieve -- and that goal is to assist as many people as possible.

 

[Retro Rob]

Generally those arguments are made to illustrate the selective perception of a proponent of intelligent design. Those persons often argue that it is reasonable to infer that the universe was designed for us because the earth is hospitable to our existence. Of course, lacking all intellectual rigor they ignore the fact that in reality the vast, vast, VAST majority of the universe is utterly hostile to our existence.

As I stated though, the Universe being inhospitable to human life shows that it simply isn't a place for humans -- that doesn't imply purpose, or the lack thereof, it and of itself, but in my opinion, it makes the earth at least appear that much more special because of its surrounding environment.

It would appear arbitrary, and deliberate. Say for instance the entire universe is barren, totally void of life, then the earth would indeed be special because there is nothing like it on the entire universe.

What things in the universe are not designed, Rob? Anything?

I don't think everything is designed, but I think that the reason why the Universe can be understood is because it works under a set of laws, and balance.

It takes intelligence to understand the universe, so I believe that it takes intelligence to create it.

Yes, you did. You said "We wouldn't be alive." You do not know that, however.

Fair enough.

 

[DrPizza]

Without God there is no ultimate standard of morality,no hope,no motivation that's not perverse.
Just look at how bad people have been getting since schools started teaching that there is no God.
Within is your answer.
This thread is like a big,fresh pile of doggy-poo.
I'm going to step around it.

That argument is easily refuted: take a look at the Middle East. Now compare the level of violence, rapes, etc., to the Scandinavian countries where there is much less religiosity. Those Scandinavian countries where women are actually treated as equals. The Abrahamic religions are very biased against women.

 

[MongGrel]

If there WAS a god, I think things on Earth might be a little better designed. Humans wouldn't be filled with tons of junk DNA. The solar system would have been designed so that no harmful radiation and charged particles were getting through our atmosphere damaging humans, and potentially leading to skin cancers. We wouldn't be faced with diseases like Ebola.

Innocent little children wouldn't be suffering through maladies such as leukemia. They wouldn't know of AIDS, anemia, asthma, cancer, cystic fibrosis, chicken pox, diabetes, downs syndrome, etc.

A god could intervene before people are harmed. You'd think if the government can punish you based on intent, that a God would be able to determine, "hey, he's carrying a pile of weapons into a crowded theater and is going to shoot a lot of people. That's his free will. How about a little lightning bolt to stop him in his tracks?"

If a god could create the Earth, you'd think he'd be good enough to create one where tornadoes weren't killing innocent people. One were hurricanes wouldn't bring in 20 foot storm surges to take away random lives.


A God who cared might show he cared. A God who was vengeful might show he's vengeful.

I usually reference this in these occasions.

There is a whole anthology related.

The Deathbird



Long story short more or less, they do it better than I can there.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Deathbird


Deathbird Stories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathbird_Stories

 

[MongGrel]

On a side note, someone in Hollywood should negotiate a few of the Deathbird Stories shorts and make a Twilight Zone type of a movie, I'd be all over that one.

You could make a Deathbird Stories II and III with all of that material that has never been used.

Sorry wasn't intended to derail, back at it.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Without God there is no ultimate standard of morality,

How is there an "ultimate standard of morality" if a god did exist? God wields the biggest stick, so that makes him "right"?

no hope,

Hope for what? Why do I need a god to exist in order to hope for the betterment of my own circumstances, or the betterment of my family, my countrymen, or the world at large?

no motivation that's not perverse.

Is wanting to live in a more peaceful and equitable society a "perverse" motivation?

Just look at how bad people have been getting since schools started teaching that there is no God.

Which schools teach this?

And by what metric do you suggest that people have "been getting bad" since schools allegedly started "teaching that there is no God"?

Within is your answer.

The answer I'm gathering from all of your senseless replies is that your worldview is only tenuously connected to reality, at best.

This thread is like a big,fresh pile of doggy-poo.
I'm going to step around it.

Looks more like you stepped squarely in it.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

No, I mean that to say that it doesn't make all the theistic religions wrong.

I'm sure you're familiar with the oft-made argument that many religions and many 'gods' somehow implies that there is no true religion, or true God.

No, actually, I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone make that argument. Can you cite an example of that line of reasoning being used?

There can only be ONE true God, just like there can be only one King, or President.

Says who? Why can't there be multiple gods?

You can have vice-presidents, etc, but not two Presidents.

That is according to the rules of our Constitution. What rules limit the title of "god" to only one being?

If I have the wrong God, so be it...but that doesn't change the fact that there can only be one.

I do not accept your alleged "fact," and you have not established it to be a fact. Rather, it seems you are stating a presupposition of yours that you take as a fact without recognizing it as simply a presupposition.

I was just beating the potential claimant to the punch.

You seem to allocate a significant portion of your responses to rebutting arguments and claims that nobody has made.

That's why I mentioned that the cop would need to investigate to determine if any evidence exists -- he just doesn't write the accounts off as untrue because they are different in details.

You didn't answer my question.

Yet, read any atheist forum or blog, and you'll see this very assertion trotted out again and again...that's why I used this illustration.

I don't believe you (although, I confess I do not read atheist forums or blogs). Can you find me an example of where you think "this very assertion" has been submitted?

It gives them something to live for, and an ultimate goal to achieve -- and that goal is to assist as many people as possible.

I repeat my question, with emphasis:

HOW does it give them purpose?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

As I stated though, the Universe being inhospitable to human life shows that it simply isn't a place for humans -- that doesn't imply purpose, or the lack thereof, it and of itself, but in my opinion, it makes the earth at least appear that much more special because of its surrounding environment.

Why "special"? Why not "fluke"?

It would appear arbitrary, and deliberate.

Do you fail to recognize those two words as antonyms?

Say for instance the entire universe is barren, totally void of life, then the earth would indeed be special because there is nothing like it on the entire universe.

I repeat my earlier questions: Why "special"? Why not simply "fluke" or "anomaly"?

I don't think everything is designed, but I think that the reason why the Universe can be understood is because it works under a set of laws, and balance.

My question was: what things are not designed? You failed to answer that question.

It takes intelligence to understand the universe, so I believe that it takes intelligence to create it.

What evidence is there that it was created?

 

[moonbogg]

I don't understand how that follows. Mass/energy appears fundamental in that way. Why don't they cause you to strongly believe in God?

I can accept that when physicists tell me that we got a universe from nothing, that they could be correct. Even if there is more to the story, and of course there is, I am willing to accept that and grant it.
What I cannot simply accept or grant, is that the capacity for experience bounced out of nothing in an arbitrary way. That crosses a line for me and I can't accept it at the moment.

 

[sandorski]

I can accept that when physicists tell me that we got a universe from nothing, that they could be correct. Even if there is more to the story, and of course there is, I am willing to accept that and grant it.
What I cannot simply accept or grant, is that the capacity for experience bounced out of nothing in an arbitrary way. That crosses a line for me and I can't accept it at the moment.

It didn't. It took billions of years of Evolution and some great number of gradual steps to reach a state where Self Consciousness began to exist.

 

[Sonikku]

I'm more or less an atheist, although if there was a god that created the galaxy and the bacteria that would eventually evolve into life, then who created god? A higher god? Then who created the higher god? Did god create himself, out of nothing? What of the big bang? If there was truly nothing to start with, I don't see how there possibly could have been a catalyst for a bang in the first place. Clearly even from a scientific point of view, there is more behind creation than we can even begin to imagine.