What if there was no God?

[soulcougher73]

At the end, everyone has a choice. Without God, I would steal from my neighbor becasue the whole issue of morality wouldn't exist, so it wouldn't be called "stealing" -- it would simply be "living".

God damn. Hope you are never my neighbor.

 

[Fern]

I think this is a good exercise to examine one's own biases and preconceived ideas.

I'm inviting anyone that believes a god exists to describe the ways that they think the world would be different if instead there was no god.

I realize that this is a bit of a lopsided burden on theists, so atheists can feel free to respond with their ideas of what the world would be like if a god really existed.

Happy Friday!

Re: Bolded - none. (This answer is rooted in a bit of theology I may or may not understand correctly.)

But those practicing religion and those arguing no God would have wasted a lot of time. Perhaps those finding hope etc in their faith would have received some intangible benefits anyway.

Fern

 

[soulcougher73]

People would make up gods, tell tall tales about how wonderful they were and worship their imaginary sky daddy, then criticize, hate, and kill those that didn't agree with them.

Oh wait..... 😱

lol

 

[alzan]

You're acting as if belief in God and God's actual are mutally exclusive -- I presented a situation is which the existence of God could be evident in our natrual ability to worship something higher than us.

Which God that is is irrelevant to that point, however, the fact that we have this inclination can be strong circumstantial evidence for the existence of a higher being of some sort, also given the fact that humans have always exhibiting religious behavior, the desire to be led, and the willingness to worship something. In other words, God left a very obvious footprint in our emotional, spiritual, and psychological makeup.

I will posit that God has given us these abilities to make it easier to accept and acknowledge his existence, albiet on our own accord, and without his forcing it on us in violation of the free-will given to us.

It could also mean that the idea of a G-d or G-ds has been reinforced for so long that some humans have difficulty conceiving of "what if" hypotheticals concerning deities.

Personally I don't think the world would be that much different; laws against theft, murder, rape, etc. would still here; there would be charity and charitable organizations; we would be encouraged by our parents and by society to live and work in ways that not only benefit us but others as well.

At the end, everyone has a choice. Without God, I would steal from my neighbor becasue the whole issue of morality wouldn't exist, so it wouldn't be called "stealing" -- it would simply be "living".

God damn. Hope you are never my neighbor.

No shit, it's a razor-thin line that keeps RR just this side of "lawful". :biggrin:

 

[inachu]

I know this is a joke post, but I just wanted to point out that there is no center of the universe.

OF all the COSMOS videos and all the NOVA videos and all the things I have read I can say with quite certainty that you are wrong.


It is there but we do not have any tech can show us. Just because we do not have the tech yet for valid proof that it goes out to infinity is bogus. They have scanned with the latest tech to prove with tech that out our immediate universe is egg shaped but that is not definitive concrete proof.

 

[Paul98]

OF all the COSMOS videos and all the NOVA videos and all the things I have read I can say with quite certainty that you are wrong.


It is there but we do not have any tech can show us. Just because we do not have the tech yet for valid proof that it goes out to infinity is bogus. They have scanned with the latest tech to prove with tech that out our immediate universe is egg shaped but that is not definitive concrete proof.

He is correct, there is no center to the universe. The big bag was the expansion of space and it happened everywhere at once. Everything is moving away from each other, but not moving away from a single point.

Watching documentary's will only give you a very small understanding and many times it will give you a misunderstanding of what is going on. The balloon analogy is a classic one which people misunderstand thinking the analogy means the universe is what is in the balloon.

 

[Subyman]

IMO, the core issue is that believers are afraid to face their natural existential crisis and, instead, cop out by telling themselves that they will go to heaven if they are good. Everything else is built on top of that fear. It is scary for a believer to convert because not only do they have to give up their religion, they have to face death.

I'm not an active atheist. I don't go around picking arguments with people in life. I'm fine with their being a god if he shows himself, but I've never seen anything that would have me believe in any of that. If there was a real god that loved his creation then I doubt we would have as much hardship in the world. There would be more equality. Unless god was a sadist, why would he sit idle and watch his children be subjugated as slaves or use his name in wars?

 

[Subyman]

God damn. Hope you are never my neighbor.

Yeah, that's nuts. If the only reason you don't hurt other humans is because a god is watching you, tallying a score for you after you die, then that is a sad existence. You'd think empathy and sympathy would be enough to treat others as you'd want to be treated, not just hoping to get a spot in heaven, which is a very selfish motivation. Wow, so sad.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yeah, that's nuts. If the only reason you don't hurt other humans is because a god is watching you, tallying a score for you after you die, then that is a sad existence. You'd think empathy and sympathy would be enough to treat others as you'd want to be treated, not just hoping to get a spot in heaven, which is a very selfish motivation. Wow, so sad.

You're right, that would be nuts...but I didn't say that "god is watching me", or "tallying a score". What I did say, was this:

Without God, I would steal from my neighbor because the whole issue of morality wouldn't exist.

Now you have an opportunity to show that as an atheist, you have enough honesty and personal integrity to properly represent your opponent's argument(s) to the best of your abilities and leave the contextomy and false attribution to the childish trolls of the P/N and OTL.

In the Discussion Club, we do out best to elevate the level of discussion and leave the crap elsewhere. You can contribute to that and it would be warmly welcomed!

 

[sandorski]

You're right, that would be nuts...but I didn't say that "god is watching me", or "tallying a score". What I did say, was this:

Now you have an opportunity to show that as an atheist, you have enough honesty and personal integrity to properly represent your opponent's argument(s) to the best of your abilities and leave the contextomy to the childish trolls of the P/N and OTL.

In the Discussion Club, we do out best to elevate the level of discussion and leave the crap elsewhere. You can contribute to that and it would be warmly welcomed!

How do you Know that Morality wouldn't exist without "god(s)"?

 

[Retro Rob]

How do you Know that Morality wouldn't exist without "god(s)"?

Firstly, thank you.

Secondly, well, I'm under the opinion that we simply have no need for it to survive if we're purely a product of natural processes. Animals have survived billions of years longer than humans without the type of morality we have, they have survived well without art, without music, without this higher-level of intelligence, etc., and are STILL thriving, albeit, we don't drive them extinct.

In other words, what we can do as humans vastly surpasses what's necessary for survival by a long shot. This why I believe humans are made in God's image, and why animals are not.

To get to my point, these things are a gift from God...a gift designed to make life more than just survivable, but to make life enjoyable and worth living, and gives us an obligation to God and fellow man regardless of kinship, etc, and gives us purpose.

Strip all this away, and we'd survive just fine, but life wouldn't be the same.

 

[sandorski]

Firstly, thank you.

Secondly, well, I'm under the opinion that we simply have no need for it to survive if we're purely a product of natural processes. Animals have survived billions of years longer than humans without the type of morality we have, they have survived well without art, without music, without this higher-level of intelligence, etc., and are STILL thriving, albeit, we don't drive them extinct.

In other words, what we can do as humans vastly surpasses what's necessary for survival by a long shot. This why I believe humans are made in God's image, and why animals are not.

To get to my point, these things are a gift from God...a gift designed to make life more than just survivable, but to make life enjoyable and worth living, and gives us an obligation to God and fellow man regardless of kinship, etc, and gives us purpose.

Strip all this away, and we'd survive just fine, but life wouldn't be the same.

Again, how do you Know any of this? You are simply making assertions.

 

[Smoblikat]

I think this is a good exercise to examine one's own biases and preconceived ideas.

I'm inviting anyone that believes a god exists to describe the ways that they think the world would be different if instead there was no god.

I realize that this is a bit of a lopsided burden on theists, so atheists can feel free to respond with their ideas of what the world would be like if a god really existed.

Happy Friday!

If there was no god there would be no world, there would be no "us" to percieve the lack of a world, so there would be nothing
No god = nothing
God = everything.

I am not religious by any stretch of the imagination, and I do not believe in the christian god, or jewish god, or any other specific god. I just know that for the universe to exist at all, something outside of its borders needed to create the rules by which we all play now.

 

[alzan]

Firstly, thank you.

Secondly, well, I'm under the opinion that we simply have no need for it to survive if we're purely a product of natural processes. Animals have survived billions of years longer than humans without the type of morality we have, they have survived well without art, without music, without this higher-level of intelligence, etc., and are STILL thriving, albeit, we don't drive them extinct.

In other words, what we can do as humans vastly surpasses what's necessary for survival by a long shot. This why I believe humans are made in God's image, and why animals are not.

To get to my point, these things are a gift from God...a gift designed to make life more than just survivable, but to make life enjoyable and worth living, and gives us an obligation to God and fellow man regardless of kinship, etc, and gives us purpose.

Strip all this away, and we'd survive just fine, but life wouldn't be the same.

I'm of the opinion that morality arises from society and civilization. It would not suit the survival of small tribes or clans of people, much less larger societies to have the members of those groups stealing from each other or killing each other just to survive. Hunter-gatherer and other groups know the value of providing for all members of the group so that the group as a whole thrives and survives.

For example, you can't raise an army for defensive or offensive purposes from a group of people who are only concerned with their individual survival.

 

[IronWing]

God(s) provide an escape from personal responsibility. One need not question his/her own moral code if one can assign its origin to a god. It's a rather juvenile cop-out.

Stating that we have an obligation to a god is entering the realm of delusion. "I have duties to this entity I just made up and so does everybody else."

 

[SMOGZINN]

Firstly, thank you.

Secondly, well, I'm under the opinion that we simply have no need for it to survive if we're purely a product of natural processes. Animals have survived billions of years longer than humans without the type of morality we have, they have survived well without art, without music, without this higher-level of intelligence, etc., and are STILL thriving, albeit, we don't drive them extinct.

I don't think this is true. Animals have some level of morals. There are experiments that show that monkeys have a concept of 'fairness' where when one monkey is rewarded for a task with a grape, and then the next monkey is rewarded for the same task with a generic food pellet that second monkey gets mad at the first monkey.

Flock birds share food. If you keep giving food to only one side of a flock of birds the birds on that side will eat only half then move away so birds from the other side can get the food, and they will do this even if none of them gets enough food.

I'm pretty sure there are other studies that have been done that have found compassion, sympathy, empathy, and other basic moral attributes among animals.

Of course they are not as complex as our moral behaviors, but that would be because they are not as complex as we are socially either.

 

[Retro Rob]

I'm of the opinion that morality arises from society and civilization. It would not suit the survival of small tribes or clans of people, much less larger societies to have the members of those groups stealing from each other or killing each other just to survive.

Anmials do it to each other all the time and have survived BILLIONS of years, and the primary thing that threatens their numbers are humans. Civilizations of animals are still flourishing without our level of morality, and always have been.

For instance, I look at how the Alpha Male Lion protects his pride, and they all work together...they're not "dying off", nor do they have human-level morality and intelligence, yet, they survive as a group and cooperate well and coordinate hunting efforts, all with inferior levels of inteliigence and morals.

Fwiw, I don't claim to know exaclty how we got these abilites, but I do believe that certain things are passed on from God to humans, like parents pass on certain things to a child, and some things we definitely acquire natrually.

 

[alzan]

Anmials do it to each other all the time and have survived BILLIONS of years, and the primary thing that threatens their numbers are humans. Civilizations of animals are still flourishing without our level of morality, and always have been.

For instance, I look at how the Alpha Male Lion protects his pride, and they all work together...they're not "dying off", nor do they have human-level morality and intelligence, yet, they survive as a group and cooperate well and coordinate hunting efforts, all with inferior levels of inteliigence and morals.

Fwiw, I don't claim to know exaclty how we got these abilites, but I do believe that certain things are passed on from God to humans, like parents pass on certain things to a child, and some things we definitely acquire natrually.

I'm not sure civilizations is the correct term to be applied to groups of animals.

The differences between humans and other animals are many. These days, for example, you don't find too many human males who would kill another human male in order to secure mating rights with a female. Human societies or groups for the most part do not migrate their populations to different areas, they learn to survive where they are. Humans are one the very few animal species that kill their own or members of other species wantonly. And on and on.

I don't claim to know how we got these abilities either but since the topic is "What if there was no G-d" we should probably refrain attributing our traits, whether inborn or learned, to him/her/it.

 

[Subyman]

Firstly, thank you.

Secondly, well, I'm under the opinion that we simply have no need for it to survive if we're purely a product of natural processes. Animals have survived billions of years longer than humans without the type of morality we have, they have survived well without art, without music, without this higher-level of intelligence, etc., and are STILL thriving, albeit, we don't drive them extinct.

In other words, what we can do as humans vastly surpasses what's necessary for survival by a long shot. This why I believe humans are made in God's image, and why animals are not.

To get to my point, these things are a gift from God...a gift designed to make life more than just survivable, but to make life enjoyable and worth living, and gives us an obligation to God and fellow man regardless of kinship, etc, and gives us purpose.

Strip all this away, and we'd survive just fine, but life wouldn't be the same.

The problem with this argument is that you are attributing a generality of the animal world to prove our special case as impossible without god. Plenty of things exist that are not needed for survival within species. If anything, our survival was vastly improved by working together to create civilizations and civilizations would not exist without morality. I don't see how any of what you said proves a god. It proves that we are wholly unique within our ecosystem, but so is every species. They all don't have a god that made them different.

Also, I apologize for my misconception earlier. I see that you meant everyone, whether they believe or not, was given morality by a god.

 

[Retro Rob]

Plenty of things exist that are not needed for survival within species.

Like what, for example? And I'm not referring to humans.

If anything, our survival was vastly improved by working together to create civilizations and civilizations would not exist without morality. I don't see how any of what you said proves a god. It proves that we are wholly unique within our ecosystem, but so is every species. They all don't have a god that made them different.

You're kind of helping my point. The uniqeness (and not haphazardness of our own place with our ecosystem, and those of others, which would be expected of a planet and life void of intellgent direction) is why I believe in a Creator God.

Also, I apologize for my misconception earlier. I see that you meant everyone, whether they believe or not, was given morality by a god.

Cool. People who make deliberate fallacies, like Soulcaugher did, aren't really interested in anything serious anyway, which is why I ignored him.

Glad we got it cleared up.

EDIT: Then, that begs the question about Natrual Disaters, disease, sickness etc, which seem to operate under haphazard conditions.

I think there is a lot to understand.

 

[soulcougher73]

If there was no god there would be no world, there would be no "us" to percieve the lack of a world, so there would be nothing
No god = nothing
God = everything.

I am not religious by any stretch of the imagination, and I do not believe in the christian god, or jewish god, or any other specific god. I just know that for the universe to exist at all, something outside of its borders needed to create the rules by which we all play now.

So then what created a god or whatever you want to call it that created the universe? If you say well he can just exist..then the same can be applied to the universe. All you are really saying is you dont have an answer..which is perfectly fine.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You're acting as if belief in God and God's actual are mutally exclusive

What an absolutely ridiculous allegation. Are you even reading my responses?

-- I presented a situation is which the existence of God could be evident in our natrual ability to worship something higher than us.

Yet you agreed that non Christian theists worship gods that you do not believe to exist. Does it only count as evidence for a god you already believe to exist? That's pretty classic Christian intellectual "integrity" for you.

Which God that is is irrelevant to that point, however, the fact that we have this inclination can be strong circumstantial evidence for the existence of a higher being of some sort, also given the fact that humans have always exhibiting religious behavior, the desire to be led, and the willingness to worship something.

If you can't tell which god this phenomena is evidence of, then you do not know that it's evidence of any god at all. You really do not seem to understand the concepts of evidence and parsimony.

In other words, God left a very obvious footprint in our emotional, spiritual, and psychological makeup.

Or evolution produced a peculiar anomaly in human consciousness that has little to do with reality.

I will posit that God has given us these abilities to make it easier to accept and acknowledge his existence, albiet on our own accord, and without his forcing it on us in violation of the free-will given to us.

I will posit that you're answering questions that nobody asked, and contradicting yourself in the process.

How about answering the question you dodged earlier: Why is a minuscule segment of habitable universe "special" instead of a "fluke"?

 

[Subyman]

Like what, for example? And I'm not referring to humans.

I'd list a few, but I think it would derail the conversation because anything could be argued as needed or as a defect or as a natural process outside of the specie's control, etc etc.

You're kind of helping my point. The uniqeness (and not haphazardness of our own place with our ecosystem, and those of others, which would be expected of a planet and life void of intellgent direction) is why I believe in a Creator God.

I don't quite understand what you mean by haphazardness of our own place? Uniqueness can't be a stepping stone to intelligent design. Two rocks aren't the same shape, that doesn't mean god a created them. It is too much of a generalization to point at two things that are different and then attribute their difference to an intelligent being.

I think part of the question of morality is muddled by only looking at physiological evolution. It isn't that simple. Our unique morality arose from a combination of physiological evolution and behavioral evolution. Other species exhibit the beginning of morality, or their own rules of right and wrong within the group. Wolves, for example, have a hierarchy and work as a social group within the rules that have been established within their species and passed along to youths for thousands of years. Why, then, haven't wolves become human-like? That's where physiological evolution comes in. Wolves simply do not have the mental capacity to move in the direction we have.

Humans are a special balance between physiological evolution and behavioral evolution. We created our rules of existence through the capacity given to us by our physiological evolution. As we can see, other animals exhibit the beginnings of morality, but do not have the tools to go further. Perhaps if given millions of years they will.

FWIW, there very well could be a creator. I'm certainly not against that. I simply think its an issue of plausibility. Belief/faith and such are in the same category as hopes and dreams, there is no way to determine the plausibility of a faith. It is possible to look into natural laws and evolution to see that it is possible for us to come to existence through those mechanisms. We are the first generation in our millions of years of lineage that get to begin to understand those mechanisms, it is a wonderful thing to be a part of.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You're kind of helping my point. The uniqeness (and not haphazardness of our own place with our ecosystem, and those of others, which would be expected of a planet and life void of intellgent direction) is why I believe in a Creator God.

What would "haphazardness" look like, Rob? How would you know it if you saw it?

Which things in the universe are not designed, Rob? How would you know an undesigned thing if you found one?

EDIT: Then, that begs the question about Natrual Disaters, disease, sickness etc, which seem to operate under haphazard conditions.

How can you tell?

 

[Smoblikat]

So then what created a god or whatever you want to call it that created the universe? If you say well he can just exist..then the same can be applied to the universe. All you are really saying is you dont have an answer..which is perfectly fine.

Uhhh, no thats not what im saying. What I said is ther eneeded to be somthing outside of our rule set to create our set of rules. Things needing to come from somewhere and needing to have a beginning are concepts that exist in our universe, not outside it. The same concept CANNOT be applied to our universe, because our universe is one of cause and effect. Whatever created our iuniverse plays by a completely different set of rules that is impossible for my mind to fully understand while it is still constrained by the laws of our current universe.