What are legitimate reasons for citizens owning guns?

[WackyDan]

So teaching the kids not to touch them is completely out of the question?

Its part of the solution. I will intentionally leave a firearm (unloaded) where my daughter can find it. I do so when ever I think of it... Maybe every 3-4 months. We have taught her (7 years old) that guns are dangerous and what to do if she comes across one. That isn't for around our house as my firearms are always locked up when not in my direct control(on my person), but for when and if she is at a friend's house and there is an unsupervised gun around. She knows to get the fuck away and find an adult. She knows what the business end is and what the trigger is... She knows not to touch them. She is pretty good at picking out visually real vs toy guns. Imagine my concern when I took her to the gun store the other month an there in the case were some bright pink, purple or green handguns... Which she identified as toys. I had the shop guy open the case and we taught her that they were real and sometimes something that looks like a toy could actually be real. I hate those fucking colors on guns.

It doesn't take much to teach your kid about basic "Do not fucking touch these things.". It's a parenting fail if someone doesn't think it works or will put on the effort to do so.

 

[IronWing]

And that was?

The Apaches showed up a few weeks before the Spanish. Well, maybe a few years, but the Athabaskans are definitely late comers to the American southwest.

 

[Atreus21]

So all gun owning citizens should have law enforcement or military training that they put themselves through? Sounds legit or more likely that they are paranoid schizophrenics.

Considering the plethora of content on Youtube on exactly that subject, I think many already do.

 

[Bird222]

What motivated me to purchase a gun was a spike in crime in my immediate neighborhood - literally my neighbor across the street (carjacked in the middle of the day by two kids who put a gun in her face as she sat on her porch) and a neighbor about 8 houses down who's home was invaded in the middle of the night while she, mercifully, was out of town.

That type of brazenness shakes me. I have four small children, a wife, and a mother-in-law in this house. If someone comes through that door at 2AM, I've presently got a machete and a hatchet to defend myself and my family with. That's not going to cut it (so to speak).

So there are several things I could do: Get an alarm system, get a dog, get a gun, move, or some combination. Financially, alarms and dogs are recurrently costly. As a practical deterrent in a physical fight, alarms won't do any more immediate help than calling the police would; dogs would though, big ones at least. The shotgun I'm getting is under $200. The security cabinet for it is about $300. That's comparatively inexpensive.

One of the reasons I'm getting a shotgun is precisely because they're big and heavy - not easy for children to pick up, load, and fire, unlike handguns.

Aren't you glad you are able to make that decision for your family and others (so far) haven't taken that away?

 

[bradly1101]

If you want to talk gun violence and economics, at least be honest about it. Middle class/upper middle class/upper class people aren't purveyors of gun violence for the most part. It's not a gun issue, it's a socio-economic issue.

Yes, desperate people do desperate things, but when wealthy firearm manufacturers are the main beneficiary of "the American gun problem," blaming the poor is rich. Do our common mass shootings have a socioeconomic bent (I know, a drop in the proverbial, very sad bucket)?

What did I say that was dishonest? Because the 25.2 times higher gun homicide rate here wasn't broken down by socio-economic status? So no (gun) problem?

 

[Younigue]

Its part of the solution. I will intentionally leave a firearm (unloaded) where my daughter can find it. I do so when ever I think of it... Maybe every 3-4 months. We have taught her (7 years old) that guns are dangerous and what to do if she comes across one. That isn't for around our house as my firearms are always locked up when not in my direct control(on my person), but for when and if she is at a friend's house and there is an unsupervised gun around. She knows to get the fuck away and find an adult. She knows what the business end is and what the trigger is... She knows not to touch them. She is pretty good at picking out visually real vs toy guns. Imagine my concern when I took her to the gun store the other month an there in the case were some bright pink, purple or green handguns... Which she identified as toys. I had the shop guy open the case and we taught her that they were real and sometimes something that looks like a toy could actually be real. I hate those fucking colors on guns.

It doesn't take much to teach your kid about basic "Do not fucking touch these things.". It's a parenting fail if someone doesn't think it works or will put on the effort to do so.

Here's to hoping you're the best most miracle working parent in the world who has his daughter 100% submissive 100% of the time with zero will of her own that might tempt her to rebel. Also here's to you raising a child that is so smart she will never make a dumb decision. You must be excited about all the recognition she will get for being the smartest/most submissive girl in the world. It's all gonna work out great. Guaranteed!

 

[Younigue]

Considering the plethora of content on Youtube on exactly that subject, I think many already do.

Like I said, sounds legit.

 

[WackyDan]

Here's to hoping you're the best most miracle working parent in the world who has his daughter 100% submissive 100% of the time with zero will of her own that might tempt her to rebel. Also here's to you raising a child that is so smart she will never make a dumb decision. You must be excited about all the recognition she will get for being the smartest/most submissive girl in the world. It's all gonna work out great. Guaranteed!

Reach much?

 

[mdram]

Here's to hoping you're the best most miracle working parent in the world who has his daughter 100% submissive 100% of the time with zero will of her own that might tempt her to rebel. Also here's to you raising a child that is so smart she will never make a dumb decision. You must be excited about all the recognition she will get for being the smartest/most submissive girl in the world. It's all gonna work out great. Guaranteed!

believe it or not, there are many homes out there with guns in the open. and kids know better than tot touch them.

of course many of these are more rural areas where they grow up around guns. and they are common sites.
so there is not as much mystery involved with them

 

[Younigue]

Reach much?

Never! Your daughter sounds amazing. So do you. You MUST begin parenting classes immediately. Don't you think it's your obligation and responsibility to the people?

 

[Younigue]

believe it or not, there are many homes out there with guns in the open. and kids know better than tot touch them.

of course many of these are more rural areas where they grow up around guns. and they are common sites.
so there is not as much mystery involved with them

Sure sure, but kids with guns in far too many cases spells devastation. Add to that, far too many of those kids having parents that are morons or violent...

 

[Paladin3]

It's an interesting question. My mind comes back to two things:

1. If the Jewish population in Germany circa 1930s was well-armed, would that be a check or even a full stop against Nazi aggression against them?

2. A gun is the ultimate force equalizer between a 250-pound man and a 120-pound woman. Are we saying we're willing to take that away from the woman?

I think the answer to #1 is complicated; there was a surprising amount of assent within the Jewish community in Germany to play along with whatever new rules got imposed upon them, thinking that with the latest set of rules those that hated them would finally leave them alone. I could see them trading in the majority of their guns willingly. On the other hand, had the SS come door to door, ain't nobody stopping them.

I guess #2 is complicated too, but even recent events have shown that the aggressor has a huge advantage - they're going to "win" a battle the majority of the time. So what does having a gun really help?

I love your last paragraph. Aggressors have a huge advantage in any attack because they go into the fight prepared, ready and willing to harm another individual. The victim usually hasn't even considered what to do if attacked, much less is ready and expecting that it could happen.

When I am carrying I have to be hyper vigilant to make sure the gun stays safely out of site and under my control at all times. I have to be ready just in case the worst does happen because I am armed. I've taken on the responsibility of carrying so my freedom to do absolutely as I want is curtailed to a some degree by my need to be ready. Without that readiness, training and willingness to respond to a threat, carrying a gun is not going to help much.

Still, I defy anyone to honestly tell me that if they were attacked they wouldn't want to be armed and prepared.

 

[bradly1101]

remember, the arms the people had were the exact same as the military

as i have said before, its not a gun problem, its a people problem.
what percentage of those gun homicides are inner city youth on youth?
remove that and the suicide rate, and its a different story

so lets work on fixing the problem

Fixing people? Good luck with that!

 

[Paladin3]

Sure sure, but kids with guns in far too many cases spells devastation. Add to that, far too many of those kids having parents that are morons or violent...

I would argue that far more guns do not cause a problem than do. Remember, 99.9%+ guns in this country are never used to hurt anyone. Lots of families engage in shooting sports and hunting safely and raise their children to do so. So you are going to have to qualify "far too many cases" for us. Otherwise we are getting into "think of the children!" type arguments. I don't want to see a way of life brought to an end because we can't reduce the accident rate to absolute zero.

 

[bradly1101]

There are different ways to store firearms that allow extremely fast access and still keep the firearms safe from unauthorized users. It's really not that hard.

Storing and access could be less of an issue if the smart-gun industry had not been taken down in its infancy by the not-smart-gun owners/lobbyists/manufacturers. What a threat!

 

[Atreus21]

First... Your logic is a bit flawed. I support your intent to own a gun, but any professional firearm instructor is going to tell you that a gun is no replacement for a perimeter alarm. Whether that alarm is a dog that makes a lot of noise or an alarm system. Note: You can install an alarm system that is not monitored yet will still alert you when a door or window is opened/broken. In the middle of the day or night, if someone breaks into your home while you are there, you will not be prepared if you don't have an alarm or loud dog.

That may be true - a dog in particular. But I want something that I directly control. The perimeter alarm goes off...then what (without a gun)? Call the cops, hunker down, and pray. Whereas with a gun it's call the cops, hunker down, and wait with the gun at the ready. Not to say an alarm isn't worth it - I just maintain that by itself it's insufficient.

Professional instructors also recommend NOT keeping a firearm by the bed side unless it is locked. When you are startled in the middle of the night you need a moment for your head to clear and think properly - Hence the strong recommendation for some sort of alarm. V-Line makes a nice Rifle cabinet (and smaller handgun cabinet) that mounts between two housing studs and sits essentially flush to the wall. It has a 5 button push combination lock. So you press the buttons in the right sequence and you are instantly in and have your loaded firearm. I have the hand gun model in the bedroom. Two steps and I am at the safe and seconds later I am armed. By time they are actually in the house, I am armed and clear headed enough to act properly... and I'm not going to shoot a family member from my bedside. https://shop.factory-express.com/Pr...pXCiFbSVFuPZafDSRsqQ-wXjMWD3UuSxoC4BIQAvD_BwE

So glad you brought up V-Line.

Guess what I'm purchasing before I get any ammunition?

http://www.vlineind.com/shop/shotgun-case-home-defense-shotgun-safe/#prettyPhoto

Spending more on the cabinet than the friggin' gun.

So please... A firearm is not the only answer to your security related concerns. It is only part of the solution, but should not be your first line of defense. If you ignore having and alarm or cameras, the gun may very well end up being useless to you. Kudos though for thinking about some sort of safe storage.

My approach is to get the last line of defense first, and work backward towards the first line. I have no intention of overlooking the outer layers - presently it's a question of what I can immediately afford.

 

[ivwshane]

That may be true - a dog in particular. But I want something that I directly control. The perimeter alarm goes off...then what (without a gun)? Call the cops, hunker down, and pray. Whereas with a gun it's call the cops, hunker down, and wait with the gun at the ready. Not to say an alarm isn't worth it - I just maintain that by itself it's insufficient.



So glad you brought up V-Line.

Guess what I'm purchasing before I get any ammunition?

http://www.vlineind.com/shop/shotgun-case-home-defense-shotgun-safe/#prettyPhoto

Spending more on the cabinet than the friggin' gun.



My approach is to get the last line of defense first, and work backward towards the first line. I have no intention of overlooking the outer layers - presently it's a question of what I can immediately afford.

Just to be clear, instead of using methods to deter would be bad guys from considering you or your house for attack you picked the one thing that bad guys wouldn't know about until they were inside and only if you happen to be home at the same time?



You can't fix stupid, folks.

 

[bradly1101]

I guess we could consult their written historical records. You do realize that humans are not native to the new world and lands have changed "ownership" several times?

Several times?

Native Americans did not consider the concept of land ownership like Europeans do(look it up). And the fossil record shows that they were the first to settle here after crossing the land bridge from Asia, perhaps 20,000 or more years ago.

 

[Paladin3]

Just to be clear, instead of using methods to deter would be bad guys from considering you or your house for attack you picked the one thing that bad guys wouldn't know about until they were inside and only if you happen to be home at the same time?

You can't fix stupid, folks.

He picked the one thing that would actually help him to protect his family should an armed attacker invade his home. Guard dogs, better locks, an alarm system and signs out on the lawn are all great, but if I could only have one form of protection when the poop hits the propeller, a gun isn't exactly the stupid choice.

 

[Atreus21]

Just to be clear, instead of using methods to deter would be bad guys from considering you or your house for attack you picked the one thing that bad guys wouldn't know about until they were inside and only if you happen to be home at the same time?

You can't fix stupid, folks.

I'm moving from a state where I have no substantive defense to a state where I do, quickly. I'm interested in deterrence secondary to an active defense.

 

[Thebobo]

Even if your wife doesn't ever want to shoot, she should take the class to learn how to safely handle the shotgun. Your kids should at least have the fundamental gun safety rules drilled into them.

Thats right NRA says force it on them and get them while their young! What a fucked up world you must live in.

 

[bradly1101]

ever heard of the mad minute?
a bolt action in the hands of a trained shooter can be very fast, and accurate

Lee Harvey (who got his mail-order with an alias) could do it.

 

[Thebobo]

That may be true - a dog in particular. But I want something that I directly control. The perimeter alarm goes off...then what (without a gun)? Call the cops, hunker down, and pray. Whereas with a gun it's call the cops, hunker down, and wait with the gun at the ready. Not to say an alarm isn't worth it - I just maintain that by itself it's insufficient.



So glad you brought up V-Line.

Guess what I'm purchasing before I get any ammunition?

http://www.vlineind.com/shop/shotgun-case-home-defense-shotgun-safe/#prettyPhoto

Spending more on the cabinet than the friggin' gun.



My approach is to get the last line of defense first, and work backward towards the first line. I have no intention of overlooking the outer layers - presently it's a question of what I can immediately afford.

My approach is not to get all freaked out by all this fear mongering as if the imaginary boogeyman is coming through my door now. Never had the need to own a gun, lived all over the US and the world and probably never will. Unless its a 22 rifle to shoot down mistletoe.

 

[jackstar7]

He picked the one thing that would actually help him to protect his family should an armed attacker invade his home. Guard dogs, better locks, an alarm system and signs out on the lawn are all great, but if I could only have one form of protection when the poop hits the propeller, a gun isn't exactly the stupid choice.

What are the chances of that propeller+poop scenario in your estimation?

Firstly, for you, then for the average American?

 

[mdram]

Just to be clear, instead of using methods to deter would be bad guys from considering you or your house for attack you picked the one thing that bad guys wouldn't know about until they were inside and only if you happen to be home at the same time?



You can't fix stupid, folks.

deterrence?
its not thier house
its illegal to break and enter
its illegal to steal
people own guns, you can get shot doing those things

what other deterrence is needed?

please do explain how to deter criminals