Went to Church for the First Time in a Long Time

[Jeff7]

Easy answer

People are not as primitive and easily fooled as they used to be. [emphasis added]

Everyone and their mothers know that religion/church is a business. It blows my mind they are still in business at this point, especially when you consider the amount of abuse that has been uncovered in recent years.

I really don't understand why you are introducing your children to superstition and "make believe" so early in their life.

If anything you should be teaching them the opposite.

Oh really now?


We're still the same basic model that we've been for a few hundred thousand years. Yes, we have better tools available for storage of information, but we're still easily tricked and manipulated, and are still intensely tribal and competitive by nature. All of this progress can lead us to believe that we're somehow better than we once were, but the basic firmware is still the same, and that combination can leave people very open to manipulation.

Advertising is a nice example. Many people will say "Advertising doesn't affect me. i don't buy things because an ad somewhere said I should."
That must be why companies spend hundreds of billions of dollars on it every year.



Manipulation: It's stated right here in this thread:

...
2) There is a mystical element to faith that is way to easy to disregard at an older age. If you are never exposed to it at a young age, why would you think about it when you are older? In other words, kids need to go at a young age else they will never go when they are older.
...

Similarly, if you want to teach someone other languages, the best time to do it is when a person's brain is still young, when it's more adaptable and pliable. It's easier to embed things in a mind that will remain there permanently. Rather than getting someone to believe something by supplying them with information at a later age when they can rationally analyze it, you expose them to it constantly when they are young, potentially imprinting them with it for life.

It's just like advertising. Advertisers love to go after kids and manipulate them. Get them in the habit of wanting to keep buying things early on, and see if you can get them to be well-behaved consumers later on. They did it such to the point that regulations were implemented to try to keep advertisers from going too far. (Transformers or My Little Pony or Power Rangers - TV shows that are basically half-hour advertisements for toys. Then Transformers evolved into feature-length advertisements directed at adults. Yes, Bumblebee was a Chevy. They paid plenty to get that top-notch product placement spot.)

Here you have churches trying to adapt to remain marketable to a changing demographic. They've got flexible hours now, modernized music, and more "engaging" ways of delivering the message.



Yes, Vdub, people are still very easy to fool, and it gets even easier when they believe that that is not the case.



In any case, that'd be my thing: Wait until they're in their 20s or something, then try the religion thing. Let rational thought come into play. Intentionally trying to work religion in while they're kids, specifically because it's easier to get it to "stick".......the nicest way I can put it is that that doesn't seem to be very ethical.

 

[AmdEmAll]

People.. especially younger ones see that religion is not only bullshit but full of evil/hate and is the reason behind most of the wars.

They would rather have a personal connection with their God (or choose not at all).

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Oh really now?


We're still the same basic model that we've been for a few hundred thousand years. Yes, we have better tools available for storage of information, but we're still easily tricked and manipulated, and are still intensely tribal and competitive by nature. All of this progress can lead us to believe that we're somehow better than we once were, but the basic firmware is still the same, and that combination can leave people very open to manipulation.

Advertising is a nice example. Many people will say "Advertising doesn't affect me. i don't buy things because an ad somewhere said I should."
That must be why companies spend hundreds of billions of dollars on it every year.



Manipulation: It's stated right here in this thread:
Similarly, if you want to teach someone other languages, the best time to do it is when a person's brain is still young, when it's more adaptable and pliable. It's easier to embed things in a mind that will remain there permanently. Rather than getting someone to believe something by supplying them with information at a later age when they can rationally analyze it, you expose them to it constantly when they are young, potentially imprinting them with it for life.

It's just like advertising. Advertisers love to go after kids and manipulate them. Get them in the habit of wanting to keep buying things early on, and see if you can get them to be well-behaved consumers later on. They did it such to the point that regulations were implemented to try to keep advertisers from going too far. (Transformers or My Little Pony or Power Rangers - TV shows that are basically half-hour advertisements for toys. Then Transformers evolved into feature-length advertisements directed at adults. Yes, Bumblebee was a Chevy. They paid plenty to get that top-notch product placement spot.)

Here you have churches trying to adapt to remain marketable to a changing demographic. They've got flexible hours now, modernized music, and more "engaging" ways of delivering the message.



Yes, Vdub, people are still very easy to fool, and it gets even easier when they believe that that is not the case.



In any case, that'd be my thing: Wait until they're in their 20s or something, then try the religion thing. Let rational thought come into play. Intentionally trying to work religion in while they're kids, specifically because it's easier to get it to "stick".......the nicest way I can put it is that that doesn't seem to be very ethical.

When did parenting become "ethical" and, who decides? We do our best to insure our children share our beliefs. We've never treated children as equals nor, should we. People respond to marketing. Why wouldn't you use it to attract others to your beliefs?

 

[Malak]

I agree totally. My ex wife started searching for churches, she kept only going to new ones once or twice. She couldn't find one that was upbeat with music she liked for a while, something with a preacher that wasn't too, err, preachy. I just don't get that attitude. If you believe in god, you serve him, not the opposite. So what is in the bible is what you go by, and I'd try and find a church that is close to that as I could. But for her it was more about finding a nice fit for her, not her trying to fit what god would want into her life necessarily. I think a lot of people tend to worship based on whatever the preacher says, not necessarily what the bible says... unless the command from the bible is easy to do and won't impact your life too much.

Most people don't want to change their lives, they want to feel good about themselves and be accepted. There's little difference between atheists and pew warmers.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Most people don't want to change their lives, they want to feel good about themselves and be accepted. There's little difference between atheists and pew warmers.

Except one has a better chance to learn something. Pew, pew, pew! :biggrin:

 

[Malak]

Except one has a better chance to learn something. Pew, pew, pew! :biggrin:

I'm not sure I agree. All wisdom comes from God but historically not all wisdom comes from the church. However a person only learns and grows if they have a yearning for it.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I'm not sure I agree. All wisdom comes from God but historically not all wisdom comes from the church. However a person only learns and grows if they have a yearning for it.

True but, yearning is not enough. It takes knowledge, direction and, insight from outside yourself.

 

[Malak]

True but, yearning is not enough. It takes knowledge, direction and, insight from outside yourself.

Of course but the yearning is exactly what atheists and pew warmers lack equally. And in this age, finding information is easy enough that you can discover the meaning of life while on the toilet.

 

[QueBert]

I have a couple thoughts on this:

2) There is a mystical element to faith that is way to easy to disregard at an older age. If you are never exposed to it at a young age, why would you think about it when you are older? In other words, kids need to go at a young age else they will never go when they are older.

You are born with faith, or you're not that's how I look at it. I was raised by an Atheist and when I was old enough to fully explore life on my own I became very spiritual. Religion's a huge part of my life, in spite of never being around it growing up. When I discovered it, it just knew it was right for me.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Of course but the yearning is exactly what atheists and pew warmers lack equally. And in this age, finding information is easy enough that you can discover the meaning of life while on the toilet.

I disagree, you can easily discover the meaning of life is 42 but, you can not form a life philosophy, at least not a comprehensive one, sitting on a toilet. Unless, it's a 7 billion seater.

 

[notposting]

Young people don't go... each generation is less and less religious. Hopefully in 50 years church will be completely gone.

They said, thousands of years ago. :whiste:

 

[notposting]

Are all churches like this? Or are there some that have a good ratio of younger and older folks (and which are not cultish)? I have quite good memories of church when I was growing up, but that was a long time ago and it seems that times have . . . changed significantly.

No, but like others have said, depends on particular church, denomination, time of day, etc.

We hunted around for a church we could attend that appealed to us (Catholic, traditional enough, family welcome) and it took a while. We probably checked out 10 different churches over the course of several months.

No cry room, school attached, lots of Masses (ie old folks at 8 am, family at 9:30, high society at 11:15, lazy bastards at 1 pm, procrastinators delight at 5 pm, plus Saturdays), not going to get downsized any time soon.

 

[Printer Bandit]

Pray or Die

 

[SlowSpyder]

Of course but the yearning is exactly what atheists and pew warmers lack equally. And in this age, finding information is easy enough that you can discover the meaning of life while on the toilet.

A desire to understand more and gain knowledge is how I became an atheist, actually.

 

[Malak]

A desire to understand more and gain knowledge is how I became an atheist, actually.

Your desire wasn't for God. There are things you'll never understand or experience without that desire.

 

[SlowSpyder]

They said, thousands of years ago. :whiste:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/23/religion-to-go-extinct-in-9-countries-experts-predict/

You can never tell what might happen between now and the next 100 years. But the direction things are going points to religion being ever less important.

 

[Retro Rob]

They said, thousands of years ago. :whiste:

An article in New Scientist I recall reading (printed in the early 80s) stated that it was believed Darwin put the "final nail in God's coffin".

That means religion should have been gone (or in serious jeopardy) probably early in the 20th century at the earliest.

Yeah, every generation has its slew of atheistic religious doomsday prophecies.

 

[Ban Bot]

1) I want my kids to go to church because I think that (in general) Churches help to instill good values in children. Work hard. Treat others with kindness. Believe in something more than yourself. Etc.

2) There is a mystical element to faith that is way to easy to disregard at an older age. If you are never exposed to it at a young age, why would you think about it when you are older? In other words, kids need to go at a young age else they will never go when they are older. As a scientist I am generally skeptical about most religious beliefs and particularly about religious explanations for world events. I do however believe in the existence of something greater than ourselves. The world and cosmos are too complex for me to accept that it all happened by pure chance. We may not understand what set things in motion, but I find it hard to believe that it was complete chance.

I find the first comment I bolded curious (no offense). The Bible, and the Christian religion based on such (even if loosely), is particularly invested in the idea that the God of the Bible is invested in, and active in, history. Everything from the exodus from Egypt, the devastation from Assyrian and Babylon, and even the affairs of Israel's return from the diaspora. Even the formulistic, "I am the LORD" plays off the meaning of God's name Yahweh (he causes to be/come into existence) as a refrain regarding the certainty of God's intrusion into the human sphere. The New Testament is no different, banking on the belief Jesus satisfied in a short historical window many prophecies regarding a "Messiah" figure and, as a cornerstone of the New Testament, the emphatic belief Jesus not only lived but died and rose from the grave ascending to heaven. I say this as a devoted conservative Christian with no intent to discourage you--quite the contrary. But I wouldn't say a faith based on a Christian denomination that strongly affirms the inspiration of the Bible is very compatible with a system that dismisses religious interpretations of history. That is one of the more distinctive aspects of Judeo-Christian theology, i.e. that it makes a claim of historicity.

On the second bolded I am reading more into what you said that what you stated but I wanted to opinion one of the other more distinctive elements is that more than "something greater then ourselves" Christianity is devoted to a very specific, personal, and knowable higher power. In fact the involvement of that specific higher power is the basis of any future after death and claims to be the crux of each person's life. Because of this, and the previous point of historicity, the religion has a strong leaning toward exclusivity over and against all other belief systems. I know there are Christian denominations that downplay these elements but they are pretty firmly entrenched in the text. My parents were overly thrilled when I embraced these elements of the Christian faith. They appreciate the values we live by and how we are raising our children but we are also, "all in" on Jesus.

Btw, not trying to be critical as I arrived at my position for many similar reasons as you deposited. But I did want to opinion on the above points as you are certain to encounter those with strong beliefs on such--if you already haven't.

 

[Retro Rob]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/23/religion-to-go-extinct-in-9-countries-experts-predict/

You can never tell what might happen between now and the next 100 years. But the direction things are going points to religion being ever less important.

Same thing was said when Darwin's book came out over 150 years ago, that religion should be "less important" within the next 100 years later.

It's 2014 and we're kicking that can further down the road.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

So my wife and I went to church for the first time in a long time the other weekend. We are not particularly religious people, though we each consider ourselves to be Christian.

If you were truly Christian and truly believed in the Christian message of eternal torment for dying in a state of sin you'd go to church every week. So while you might like to believe that you're a Christian, you're not.

 

[alkemyst]

If you were truly Christian and truly believed in the Christian message of eternal torment for dying in a state of sin you'd go to church every week. So while you might like to believe that you're a Christian, you're not.

Keep your bullshit to P&N

 

[alkemyst]

An article in New Scientist I recall reading (printed in the early 80s) stated that it was believed Darwin put the "final nail in God's coffin".

That means religion should have been gone (or in serious jeopardy) probably early in the 20th century at the earliest.

Yeah, every generation has its slew of atheistic religious doomsday prophecies.

Except Darwin didn't deny the existence of God. He stated many times he was an Agnostic, not an Atheist.

 

[Malak]

Except Darwin didn't deny the existence of God. He stated many times he was an Agnostic, not an Atheist.

And evolution doesn't talk about God at all.

 

[Retro Rob]

Except Darwin didn't deny the existence of God. He stated many times he was an Agnostic, not an Atheist.

Of course, but I was showing how atheists marked that as the beginning of the end of religion, and now since that proclamation didn't come to pass, they have to kick the can so far down the road that it extends beyond their lifetimes.

How convenient.

 

[pete6032]

If you were truly Christian and truly believed in the Christian message of eternal torment for dying in a state of sin you'd go to church every week. So while you might like to believe that you're a Christian, you're not.

Sounds like you're just trolling.