WARNING: Watching Anti-Islam Videos Leads to Independent Thought!!

[woolfe9998]

I am pretty sure most liberals condemn the intolerant actions and beliefs of Islam.

Many liberals I know in real life do. Many I see online, for one reason or another, are less likely to. It doesn't really count as condemnation when you use weasel words like "of course I condemn this" then go on to draw specious and false equivalencies with western countries, or change the subject in some other way. This I commonly see from liberals. An analogy would be if you see a conservative addressing the recent shooting in Charleston by saying "of course I condemn this" then going on to complain about black on white crime.

In one thread on this board, it was pointed out through linked news that they are executing women for witchcraft in Saudi Arabia. A progressive on this board pops into the thread to remind people that an apparently innocent man was executed in Texas for allegedly burning his house down with his wife and children in it. I shouldn't have to point out how false this analogy is - trying to compare a single case where the court is wrong about a person's guilt in what would otherwise be a heinous crime with systemic prosecution for a crime that isn't even real, a crime that hasn't been prosecuted in the west since the 1690's. I can probably find the link in a search if you doubt me. However, this is far and away not the only case of it. Just one that comes to mind.

Another problem is when people suggest that terrorist acts and other atrocities are not rooted in Islam and have nothing to do with the religion when clearly it does.

As to what motivates this, I think there are several causes. One is a misguided application of "multi-culturism" which says that all cultures are equal and hence we should tolerate the intolerance of other cultures. Another may be even simpler - some liberals despise the State of Israel, and they defend Muslims on the theory that the enemy of their enemy is their friend. There may be other reasons as well.

 

[realibrad]

I am pretty sure most liberals condemn the intolerant actions and beliefs of Islam.

The problem really comes from what people define as the beliefs of Islam. So even though horrible things are in the Quran, its not part of Islam if some dont follow it. Or, if its Sharia law, its not part of Islam, so when it says to kill those who leave Islam, its not really Islam. Or when it stays to stone a woman who has committed adultery, its not really part of real Islam.

 

[Orignal Earl]

No, you are wrong because you said many Muslim majority countries were less religious than the US when in fact that is wrong. The fact that I forgot to put in a word does not change your claim.

Where the US stands in terms of being progressive has nothing to do with Muslim majority countries not being progressive.

So, again, name a Muslim majority country that is progressive by your standard.

I said several, I did not say many.
Please stop changing my words too

Every Muslim majority country that is secular are all progressive by my standard

 

[blastingcap]

I see these false equivalencies drawn up by liberals ALL THE TIME as well. It's mostly out of ignorance--many people in the West are pretty clueless about Islam and very politically correct. They want to believe that all genders are the same, all races are the same, and all religions are the same. (Not literally. But that's another topic.) Whenever you talk about the Islamic present, they want to talk about the Christian past and pretend that the two are the same. Yet they won't bother to learn about the fundamental differences between the two! And they don't want to talk about how majority-Christian countries are relatively tolerant and secular, and majority-Muslim countries are intolerant and heavily discriminatory.

And I agree about the Charleston analogy.

I'm no conservative, but even I am sick of the "every religion is the same" b.s. I'm not even atheist per se, but I find myself wishing all religions would vanish.

Many liberals I know in real life do. Many I see online, for one reason or another, are less likely to. It doesn't really count as condemnation when you use weasel words like "of course I condemn this" then go on to draw specious and false equivalencies with western countries, or change the subject in some other way. This I commonly see from liberals. An analogy would be if you see a conservative addressing the recent shooting in Charleston by saying "of course I condemn this" then going on to complain about black on white crime.

In one thread on this board, it was pointed out through linked news that they are executing women for witchcraft in Saudi Arabia. A progressive on this board pops into the thread to remind people that an apparently innocent man was executed in Texas for allegedly burning his house down with his wife and children in it. I shouldn't have to point out how false this analogy is - trying to compare a single case where the court is wrong about a person's guilt in what would otherwise be a heinous crime with systemic prosecution for a crime that isn't even real, a crime that hasn't been prosecuted in the west since the 1690's. I can probably find the link in a search if you doubt me. However, this is far and away not the only case of it. Just one that comes to mind.

Another problem is when people suggest that terrorist acts and other atrocities are not rooted in Islam and have nothing to do with the religion when clearly it does.

As to what motivates this, I think there are several causes. One is a misguided application of "multi-culturism" which says that all cultures are equal and hence we should tolerate the intolerance of other cultures. Another may be even simpler - some liberals despise the State of Israel, and they defend Muslims on the theory that the enemy of their enemy is their friend. There may be other reasons as well.

 

[realibrad]

I said several, I did not say many.
Please stop changing my words too

Every Muslim majority country that is secular are all progressive by my standard

So first, give a Muslim majority country that you define as progressive.

2nd, give a Muslim majority country that has a secular government.

You are again saying something, and not giving anyone anything to understand what you mean. You say there is a country that is a Muslim majority country that is progressive, so just name one. last time you did it was stupid because you listed Jordan and Morocco and I give a pretty nice counter, so what country and or countries will you randomly pick and hope you are right?

 

[Orignal Earl]

So first, give a Muslim majority country that you define as progressive.

2nd, give a Muslim majority country that has a secular government.

You are again saying something, and not giving anyone anything to understand what you mean. You say there is a country that is a Muslim majority country that is progressive, so just name one. last time you did it was stupid because you listed Jordan and Morocco and I give a pretty nice counter, so what country and or countries will you randomly pick and hope you are right?

I said every Muslim majority country that is secular is progressive by my standard.
Your first and second question would have the same answers, you seem to have a problem with comprehending the flow of a conversion

Burkina, Faso, Chad, Gambia, Guinea, Mali, Senegal, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikstan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo are all secular states

 

[justoh]

Conservatives (at least here) are right to condemn Islam, yet many are religious themselves, so do so for the wrong reasons.

Religion is just incompatible with freedom, and all of them impossible to buy into for any thinking person. Can't be liberal without thinking, surely... Conservatives are all about retaining the past social order or whatever. Seems pretty basic.

A liberal isn't simply someone who isn't conservative. You need reason for "progress." No true liberal could ever be religious or call for us to respect this nonsense. They don't give a shit about what it means or should mean to be liberal. Should refer to each other as democrats and republicans instead (i guess democrats and conservatives works as well).

It's all a big mess. Stop defending Islam/religion, so-called liberals!

 

[Charmonium]

Wake up liberals. The better part of Islamic culture is your ideological enemy. If we ever had a Muslim majority in a western country, the very liberals who defended this culture would be the first to be incarcerated and/or executed. The same liberals who are anti-theocratic, pro gay rights, and pro women's rights, how would you fare under Islamic rule? How would you as a liberal enjoy stepping into a time machine and being transported back to Christian Europe in the Middle Ages? Well, since time machines don't exist, you can just move to an Islamic country and see how that works. Same difference. These people hate you and everything you stand for, yet you're the ones defending them the loudest. Suckers.

You'll never have a Western country that is primarily Islamic. The closest thing we have to that now is Turkey and being the home of the Ottoman empire, I don't really think that they're considered Western.

Islam reminds me a lot of strict Catholicism. It's mainly a system that primarily tells you what you can't do rather than what you can. And since it would take several generations for any invading culture to reach a critical mass, they would be assimilated long before they posed any real threat. Western societies are largely very permissive and antithetical to restrictive ideologies like fundamentalism - in all its forms.

In the US, we need to be primarily concerned with religious conservative of the Christian variety who want to impose their will on the rest of society. And even they aren't that much of a threat since they only seem to dominate in largely rural areas.

 

[realibrad]

I said every Muslim majority country that is secular is progressive by my standard.
Your first and second question would have the same answers, you seem to have a problem with comprehending the flow of a conversion

Burkina, Faso, Chad, Gambia, Guinea, Mali, Senegal, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikstan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo are all secular states

So I will research these countries, but while I do that, can you tell me what you think makes them progressive?

 

[Orignal Earl]

It's all a big mess. Stop defending Islam/religion, so-called liberals!

I don't know if I could be defined as a liberal, but I believe in freedom of religion.
So ya, I do believe they are compatible

 

[blastingcap]

So I will research these countries, but while I do that, can you tell me what you think makes them progressive?

I hope that you realize that OriginalTroll copied and pasted from this Wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism#Secular_states_with_majority_Muslim_populations

In other words, he is clueless. You called him out to name states and all he could do was run to Wiki like a little punk.

He's a troll. Don't you understand by now? He knows very little if anything about Islam or about any of the aforementioned states. He just spams random crap out hoping to get a rise out of people. He couldn't care less about Islam.

 

[Orignal Earl]

So I will research these countries, but while I do that, can you tell me what you think makes them progressive?

I have a couple of times already brad.
I'm beginning to think you have some kind of reading disability.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I hope that you realize that OriginalTroll copied and pasted from this Wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism#Secular_states_with_majority_Muslim_populations

In other words, he is clueless. You called him out to name states and all he could do was run to Wiki like a little punk.

He's a troll. Don't you understand by now? He knows very little if anything about Islam or about any of the aforementioned states. He just spams random crap out hoping to get a rise out of people. He couldn't care less about Islam.

It was wrong for me to get the list of secular states from wiki? Is that how you judge me to be a troll?
That's crazy

How did you gain all your knowledge about Islam?

 

[realibrad]

Conservatives (at least here) are right to condemn Islam, yet many are religious themselves, so do so for the wrong reasons.

Religion is just incompatible with freedom, and all of them impossible to buy into for any thinking person. Can't be liberal without thinking, surely... Conservatives are all about retaining the past social order or whatever. Seems pretty basic.

A liberal isn't simply someone who isn't conservative. You need reason for "progress." No true liberal could ever be religious or call for us to respect this nonsense. They don't give a shit about what it means or should mean to be liberal. Should refer to each other as democrats and republicans instead (i guess democrats and conservatives works as well).

It's all a big mess. Stop defending Islam/religion, so-called liberals!

Its weird, because I never considered myself a conservative yet I seem to be on the side of conservatives when it comes to Islam. I'm pretty sure that is because many use the same arguments as a proxy to argue against Islam because the bigoted arguments are taboo. So when I say things like Muslims make up a disproportionate number of religious terrorists the right agrees and the left disagrees. When I say that Christianity is not the source of morality, the right disagrees and the left does something funny. Some on the left have argued that morality is subjective and what is immoral for one is moral for another so you should not judge.

The right is totally on board criticizing the religions they are not. The left now seems to not want to criticize anything about anyone. So someone like Earl tries to establish a relativism and so picking out one thing is unfair.

 

[realibrad]

I hope that you realize that OriginalTroll copied and pasted from this Wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism#Secular_states_with_majority_Muslim_populations

In other words, he is clueless. You called him out to name states and all he could do was run to Wiki like a little punk.

He's a troll. Don't you understand by now? He knows very little if anything about Islam or about any of the aforementioned states. He just spams random crap out hoping to get a rise out of people. He couldn't care less about Islam.

I know he is, but its a challenge to prove him wrong. When I get tired, I stop, but I enjoy learning and not getting into echo chambers. I sometimes get things wrong, like when I said there are other western countries with the death penalty and was totally wrong. I cant learn nearly as much if I don't talk to those who disagree. With Earl, his trolling gives me better arguments to deal with stupidity. I know a lot of hipsters and they use many of the same arguments.

BTW, I hate hipsters. So damn annoying. They are far more dangerous than terrorists, and we should send drones after them.

 

[lotus503]

I see these false equivalencies drawn up by liberals ALL THE TIME as well. It's mostly out of ignorance--many people in the West are pretty clueless about Islam and very politically correct. They want to believe that all genders are the same, all races are the same, and all religions are the same. (Not literally. But that's another topic.) Whenever you talk about the Islamic present, they want to talk about the Christian past and pretend that the two are the same. Yet they won't bother to learn about the fundamental differences between the two! And they don't want to talk about how majority-Christian countries are relatively tolerant and secular, and majority-Muslim countries are intolerant and heavily discriminatory.

And I agree about the Charleston analogy.

I'm no conservative, but even I am sick of the "every religion is the same" b.s. I'm not even atheist per se, but I find myself wishing all religions would vanish.

Christianity has had the opportunity to be represented in evolving culture and society as such it has evolved itself.

Most Islamic countries have not had similar cultural and societal progress and thus Islam has not evolved with it.

But make no mistake Christianity has a past not real dissimilar to where Islam is today.

I debate with myself if the world would be better off without religion, on the one hand I think its a ridiculous concept on other other some people need some mystical being to keep them from doing shitty stuff.

 

[realibrad]

It was wrong for me to get the list of secular states from wiki? Is that how you judge me to be a troll?
That's crazy

How did you gain all your knowledge about Islam?

Its wrong if your criteria for their progressive label that you gave them comes from the fact they are secular.

Also, where did you establish what a progressive country was? the closest thing I can find is where you said something about Muslim majority countries not having Islam as the official religion or the majority not supporting Sharia Law.

So where did you establish your criteria for what you call progressive?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Its wrong if your criteria for their progressive label that you gave them comes from the fact they are secular.

Also, where did you establish what a progressive country was? the closest thing I can find is where you said something about Muslim majority countries not having Islam as the official religion or the majority not supporting Sharia Law.

So where did you establish your criteria for what you call progressive?

You know how you said you tried to help all your friends, and they wouldn't listen, and how you tried to talk to Moonie and he stopped replying to you
It's because that's what adults do when someone's children constantly calls them stupid

 

[blastingcap]

Christianity has had the opportunity to be represented in evolving culture and society as such it has evolved itself.

Most Islamic countries have not had similar cultural and societal progress and thus Islam has not evolved with it.

But make no mistake Christianity has a past not real dissimilar to where Islam is today.

I debate with myself if the world would be better off without religion, on the one hand I think its a ridiculous concept on other other some people need some mystical being to keep them from doing shitty stuff.

I disagree. KSA for instance, had opportunities. Lots of buildings, roads, telephone wires, etc. went up after oil was discovered, and for a brief moment it seemed like maybe they would let go of the past... but the religious were unhappy with the pace of progress and demanded and won concessions to slow down or go backwards. Then the Siege of Mecca (Grand Mosque seizure) happened and further stunted hopes of any progress. The assassination of King Faisal didn't help either.

After the fall of the Shah, Iran could have gone in various directions but ultimately the religious factions won out (and systematically assassinated the leaders of any rival factions).

There are rare instances like the recent Tunisian votes that go the other direction but there's been a whole lot of backsliding in some parts of the world during the 20th and 21st centuries. I mean, it's amazing to me that anyone would want to live like 1400 years ago but you have lots of Daesh and Daesh sympathizers who essentially want to do that.

Imho the main reason why many Muslims aren't even more conservative is because of the legacy of the Ottoman Empire, in which there was, how shall we say, lax or selective enforcement of some Islamic laws. You could even get drunk and such during the reign of some of those guys.

 

[Victorian Gray]

So first, give a Muslim majority country that you define as progressive.

2nd, give a Muslim majority country that has a secular government.

You are again saying something, and not giving anyone anything to understand what you mean. You say there is a country that is a Muslim majority country that is progressive, so just name one. last time you did it was stupid because you listed Jordan and Morocco and I give a pretty nice counter, so what country and or countries will you randomly pick and hope you are right?

Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) has a secular govt. based on the 'rule of law'

Form of the State and Sovereignty

Article 1
(1) The State of Indonesia shall be a unitary state in the form of a republic.
(2) Sovereignty is in the hands of the people and is implemented according to this Constitution.
(3) The State of Indonesia shall be a state based on the rule of law.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060109203358/http://www.us-asean.org/Indonesia/constitution.htm

The country's constitution says this about religion (and a few other things):

Article 28E
(1) Every person shall be free to choose and to practice the religion of his/her choice, to choose one's education, to choose one's employment, to choose one's citizenship, and to choose one's place of residence within the state territory, to leave it and to subsequently return to it.
(2) Every person shall have the right to the freedom to believe his/her faith (kepercayaan), and to express his/her views and thoughts, in accordance with his/her conscience.
(3) Every person shall have the right to the freedom to associate, to assemble and to express opinions.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060109203358/http://www.us-asean.org/Indonesia/constitution.htm

 

[blastingcap]

Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) has a secular govt. based on the 'rule of law'

Form of the State and Sovereignty

Article 1
(1) The State of Indonesia shall be a unitary state in the form of a republic.
(2) Sovereignty is in the hands of the people and is implemented according to this Constitution.
(3) The State of Indonesia shall be a state based on the rule of law.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060109203358/http://www.us-asean.org/Indonesia/constitution.htm

The country's constitution says this about religion (and a few other things):

Article 28E
(1) Every person shall be free to choose and to practice the religion of his/her choice, to choose one's education, to choose one's employment, to choose one's citizenship, and to choose one's place of residence within the state territory, to leave it and to subsequently return to it.
(2) Every person shall have the right to the freedom to believe his/her faith (kepercayaan), and to express his/her views and thoughts, in accordance with his/her conscience.
(3) Every person shall have the right to the freedom to associate, to assemble and to express opinions.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060109203358/http://www.us-asean.org/Indonesia/constitution.htm

Yeah and if you believe that Indonesia is anywhere near as religiously free as the West, perhaps you believe that the Syrian Arab Republic is actually a Republic and not a dictatorship. I can't tell if you are trolling like Earl or simply ignorant. Probably both.

Violence against religious minorities in Indonesia: http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/02/28/indonesia-religious-minorities-targets-rising-violence

For crying out loud the government even demolished a church, and it's hard to build anything other than a Mosque in Indonesia in the first place. http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/03/25/indonesia-order-end-church-demolitions

Try telling the Ahmadiyah Muslims that they are free. Free to DIE maybe:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-13114568

Aceh is notoriously hardline Shariah: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/indonesian-province-turns-sharia-law-devastating-tsunami/

And let's not forget that among Muslims who desire Shariah law in Indonesia (72% of Muslims polled; and remember Indonesia is almost entirely Muslim so that's basically the vast majority of the population favoring Shariah law), 18% favor the death penalty for Muslims who go atheist or convert to another religion: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ So you have about 1 in 9 Indonesians wanting the death penalty for anyone who dares to convert away from Islam or go atheist. How many Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, etc. would like the death penalty for people who leave those religions? Exactly.

 

[lotus503]

I disagree. KSA for instance, had opportunities. Lots of buildings, roads, telephone wires, etc. went up after oil was discovered, and for a brief moment it seemed like maybe they would let go of the past... but the religious were unhappy with the pace of progress and demanded and won concessions to slow down or go backwards. Then the Siege of Mecca (Grand Mosque seizure) happened and further stunted hopes of any progress. The assassination of King Faisal didn't help either.

After the fall of the Shah, Iran could have gone in various directions but ultimately the religious factions won out (and systematically assassinated the leaders of any rival factions).

There are rare instances like the recent Tunisian votes that go the other direction but there's been a whole lot of backsliding in some parts of the world during the 20th and 21st centuries. I mean, it's amazing to me that anyone would want to live like 1400 years ago but you have lots of Daesh and Daesh sympathizers who essentially want to do that.

Imho the main reason why many Muslims aren't even more conservative is because of the legacy of the Ottoman Empire, in which there was, how shall we say, lax or selective enforcement of some Islamic laws. You could even get drunk and such during the reign of some of those guys.

Well outside of weaponry and a few modern conveniences a lot of the Islamic world lives like 1000 years ago.

Contrasting Christianity which is popular in much of the west.


By in large Christianity has paced with cultural and societal change whereas Islam has not.

that's not even addressing Jihad didn't really get fired up and target the west until the first Iraq war. There is something about invading foreign countries that pisses off people.

 

[realibrad]

Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) has a secular govt. based on the 'rule of law'

Form of the State and Sovereignty

Article 1
(1) The State of Indonesia shall be a unitary state in the form of a republic.
(2) Sovereignty is in the hands of the people and is implemented according to this Constitution.
(3) The State of Indonesia shall be a state based on the rule of law.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060109203358/http://www.us-asean.org/Indonesia/constitution.htm

The country's constitution says this about religion (and a few other things):

Article 28E
(1) Every person shall be free to choose and to practice the religion of his/her choice, to choose one's education, to choose one's employment, to choose one's citizenship, and to choose one's place of residence within the state territory, to leave it and to subsequently return to it.
(2) Every person shall have the right to the freedom to believe his/her faith (kepercayaan), and to express his/her views and thoughts, in accordance with his/her conscience.
(3) Every person shall have the right to the freedom to associate, to assemble and to express opinions.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060109203358/http://www.us-asean.org/Indonesia/constitution.htm

You are a bit late on this one, and I am guessing you did not understand the context of my question.

Earl has a habit of making claims and not backing anything up with facts.

But, because you brought up Indonesia, I can bring up their Blasphemy law and their view on freedome of religion. The state takes the stance that there is a god, and that nonbelief is not allowed. In that country, saying there is not a god can get you put in jail.

So while Indonesia might have some secular parts, I would argue that its incorrect to call it secular.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Indonesia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Indonesia

 

[blastingcap]

Well outside of weaponry and a few modern conveniences a lot of the Islamic world lives like 1000 years ago.

Contrasting Christianity which is popular in much of the west.

By in large Christianity has paced with cultural and societal change whereas Islam has not.

that's not even addressing Jihad didn't really get fired up and target the west until the first Iraq war. There is something about invading foreign countries that pisses off people.

Let's stop making this about Christianity vs Islam because it's not. Look at China, India, Japan, etc.

Also, what world do you live in where jihadis weren't fired up prior to 2003? WTC ring a bell? 1993, 2001? Embassy bombings? Most scholars think the real firing up was the Afghan War where the West tried to arm Muslim jihadis and encouraged them to attack the Soviets. Only the jihadis didn't stop after the Russian withdrawal, they just kept going.

Although I think you could then realign your argument with the Afghan invasion rather than the Iraq invasion. Same argument, different country.

It almost makes me wish the Ottoman Empire survived. Then they would be tasked with keeping the crazies in their Empire under control.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Yeah and if you believe that Indonesia is anywhere near as free as the West, perhaps you believe that the Syrian Arab Republic is actually a Republic and not a dictatorship. I can't tell if you are trolling like Earl or simply ignorant.

Violence against religious minorities in Indonesia: http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/02/28/indonesia-religious-minorities-targets-rising-violence

For crying out loud the government even demolished a church, and it's hard to build anything other than a Mosque in Indonesia in the first place. http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/03/25/indonesia-order-end-church-demolitions

Try telling the Ahmadiyah Muslims that they are free. Free to DIE maybe:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-13114568

Aceh is notoriously hardline Shariah: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/indonesian-province-turns-sharia-law-devastating-tsunami/

And let's not forget that among Muslims who desire Shariah law in Indonesia, 18% favor the death penalty for Muslims who go atheist or convert to another religion: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

You have no interest in an honest debate.

Example, opening line of dishonest bullshit: "Yeah and if you believe that Indonesia is anywhere near as free as the West".

Do I? Did I ever make that claim? Did anyone else?

Bottom line, Not worth the effort, you can go back to pretending that you know what you're talking about and I'll go back to ignoring you. Have a nice day.