WARNING: Watching Anti-Islam Videos Leads to Independent Thought!!

[Blue_Max]

I threw a question in a previous reply: Assuming for a second that Mohamed was indeed a true prophet that came with evolutionary teachings, based on the same old rules of the precedent prophets, would you liked for him to have faced the same exact fate as the Jesus did among the Jews and the Romans?

I'd have liked to see slo-Mo do what big-J did.
[warning: biblical explanation stuff coming]
Without sounding too preachy about it, Jesus wasn't "murdered", he wasn't even "martyred" -- he offered himself without a physical fight, though his disciples put up a good fight just before his capture. Jesus stopped the fight, healed the injured Roman soldier and allowed himself to be taken.This was in order to die, which was required of him to complete his mission.
You remember the whole Jewish sacrificing of lambs thing? It was a look-ahead to when the son of God would be sacrificed for the human race. When Jesus died, the Jewish temple curtains were torn from the top-down (by God's own hand) ending the whole sacrificial system for good. Sacrificing hasn't been done since, even by those jews who refused to accept Jesus as anything more than a prophet or "really good guy" and are still holding out for the more exciting Saviour 2.0 😉 When you hear "Jesus is the lamb" - this is why. Just like how the blood in the Jewish sacrifice cleansed them of sins - Jesus' blood was the final sacrifice for all humanity.

From top to bottom, Christianity is supposed to be about self-sacrifice, nobility, doing the right thing even when it's very hard, and treating people with kindness and respect. [end of bible stuff]

There's been plenty of examples of people doing bad things and called themselves Christian, despite never setting foot in a church, reading the bible (let alone having a CLUE what's in it) and doing whatever they want, regardless of any ten commandments. Heck, I've seen plenty of hypocritical churchgoers who were still just as selfish, greedy, back-stabbing and self-serving as a Wall-Street insurance salesman. Some people lived the lifestyle, some people were just there to put on a show of "look how wonderful I am".

In Christianity, the devout are typically kind, generous and helpful.

What are the devout like in Islam? The ones who want to follow their prophet and quran to the letter? They're exactly like slo-Mo and showing kindness ONLY to fellow "devout" muslims. Pigs and monkeys... er, I mean, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, others, and not-practicing-hard-enough muslims are treated as ordered and by example - with "harshness".

The terrorist-types are not "radical" muslims - they're devout ones doing what the faith orders them to. The "peaceful" 75% don't loudly disapprove, either... mostly because they know this is what is in their faith and if they're ordered to do the same, they must or face severe punishment themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1l4gGkPziA <- interesting vid on the subject.


I have one glimmer of hope in this... a small handful of muslims ARE calling for reform! To change the faith and let go of the hateful things that genuinely exist... but I fear it's quite the uphill climb. Christianity was all about peace and harmony for all, Judaism managed to let go most of the barbaric stuff like stoning, etc. (I know nothing about Buddhism, Taoism, etc.) Islam has a LOT of violence to let go of... I see the easiest path to it being a change to the mindset of "Peace for ALL" instead of "Peace for JUST US".

Needless to say, the calls for reform are coming from western countries where it's safe to do so. To even question the faith or imam in most of the middle east is to risk your life.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Xenophobia is the unreasoned fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange.[1][2] Xenophobia can manifest itself in many ways involving the relations and perceptions of an ingroup towards an outgroup, including a fear of losing identity, suspicion of its activities, aggression, and desire to eliminate its presence to secure a presumed purity


A physically, emotional, or economically negative experience with a particular group which is then over-generalized to all members of that group.

Classical conditioning, that is when someone is conditioned to having a fear or repulse from aliens generally, or, from specific group. Ways to instill it would be dehumanization, mostly by propaganda, for example: a video containing group members shown distorted, erroneous, and in proportional phases of horror sounding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

From Nazi Germany to the Khmer Rouge to Daesh to the Charleston shooter to Islamphobes

 

[realibrad]

Out of the 50 Muslim majority countries there must be a few more roles models no?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Feel free to actually point one out. You post in this thread a lot, so you seem to have some free time, so why not take the extra step and point one out?

Don't forget the US invested a lot in those crazy mosques too

Genesis Of Islamic Radicalism: The US Textbook Project That Taught Afghan Children Terror

http://newsrescue.com/genesis-of-is...-taught-afghan-children-terror/#axzz3dwH9tpYr

I love this like from your link.

The calls to resist oppression are based in Islamic teachings, which the US sponsored Jihadism inculcated in Muslim mind for so long to its own disadvantage.

Resisting oppression is an Islamic teaching, but up until the 80s was not followed.

The story, and many like it, appear in the millions of textbooks written, printed and distributed during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. The books taught reading and math and sought to turn children against the Red Army and the Afghan communist government.

The textbooks’ publisher: The University of Nebraska at Omaha’s Center for Afghanistan Studies, operating inside Pakistan on a U.S. government grant.

To the center’s longtime director, the textbooks are byproducts of a dark era when Russian bombs killed Afghan schoolchildren and rebel forces fought to save their country.

Exiled Afghan education officials, not UNO officials, wrote the books, Thomas Gouttierre says.

The center’s sole interest, according to him, was to deliver education to children who weren’t getting any

It mainly looks like the US did what it loves to do, and that is flood a problem with cash and hope its interests are served.

 

[blastingcap]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

From Nazi Germany to the Khmer Rouge to Daesh to the Charleston shooter to Islamphobes

Your bullshit namecalling doesn't work in P&N, my friend. But you are a known troll who deliberately plays dumb about Islam, even when the facts are in your face. You even had the temerity to claim that "only" 17% of Muslims in some countries want the death penalty for Muslims who convert or leave Islam, as if that number should be greater than zero. (And as if that number weren't over 70% in many large Muslim countries!)

Any way you spell it, Islam is a cult of personality and the penalty for leaving the cult is death.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Feel free to actually point one out. You post in this thread a lot, so you seem to have some free time, so why not take the extra step and point one out?

I got all the time in the world for you brad
How about Morocco or Jordan?
Princess Grace certainly loved it in Morocco eh

I love this like from your link.



Resisting oppression is an Islamic teaching, but up until the 80s was not followed.

I love that too, resisting oppression is like a human right

It mainly looks like the US did what it loves to do, and that is flood a problem with cash and hope its interests are served.

Jesus, that's horrible eh

 

[Orignal Earl]

Your bullshit namecalling doesn't work in P&N, my friend. But you are a known troll who deliberately plays dumb about Islam, even when the facts are in your face. You even had the temerity to claim that "only" 17% of Muslims in some countries want the death penalty for Muslims who convert or leave Islam, as if that number should be greater than zero. (And as if that number weren't over 70% in many large Muslim countries!)

Any way you spell it, Islam is a cult of personality and the penalty for leaving the cult is death.

I have no doubt you and Blue and Anders Behring Breivik believe your cause is just and true

 

[blastingcap]

I have no doubt you and Blue and Anders Behring Breivik believe your cause is just and true

More name calling bullshit and deflecting by our resident troll. Keep trying to deflect and namecall because the facts aren't on your side. It's all you can do at this point. Lol.

 

[Orignal Earl]

More name calling bullshit and deflecting by our resident troll. Keep trying to deflect and namecall because the facts aren't on your side. It's all you can do at this point. Lol.

Your continuously calling me a known troll doesn't make it true eh
Did you have a meeting and vote on my trollism?

 

[realibrad]

I got all the time in the world for you brad
How about Morocco or Jordan?
Princess Grace certainly loved it in Morocco eh



I love that too, resisting oppression is like a human right




Jesus, that's horrible eh

So Jordan and Morocco.
Jordan 90+% Muslim
Morocco 90+% Muslim

Good there.

So lets now look at some polls.

"Should Sharia Apply to Both Muslims and Non-Muslims?
Jordan 41% no, 58% Yes
Morocco 60% no, 29% yes

Not great for Jordan there, but Morocco seems far more reasonable. I am guessing that you would counter with the point that if you asked Westerners if non-Christians should follow Christian laws they would mostly say yes. The difference here is that Sharia is not even close to "Christian" Laws. But lets see what you counter so I dont put words in your mouth.

The next question I will use only polled Jordan, and not Morocco. Of those who said that Sharia should be the law of the land, here is the % who favor corporal punishment for crimes such as theft.

Jordan 57%

So roughly 30+% think corporal punishment for crimes like theft should be done. Thats not very progressive eh.

Again, we have a question that does not show data for Morocco.

Of those who favor Shria, the % who think stonning as a punishment for adultery is ok.
Jordan 67%.

So roughly 38+% of the people think stoning is ok for adultery. Thats pretty sick.

Again, those who think Shria should be the law and of those who believe in the death penalty for leaving islam.

Jordan, 82%

47+% of the population thinks this is right. Holy crap Jordan.

Now we come to polls that include both again.
Of those who who believe the country's laws should follow Sharia...
"Is it good or bad that laws do not follow Sharia closely?"

Morocco - 13% Good, 76% Bad, 11% Neither/ Did not know.
Jordan - 21% Good, 69% Bad, 10% Neither/ Did not know.

Next we have...

Is suicide bombing justified. The data represents those who say that attacks against civilians in defense of Islam can often/sometimes be justified.

Jordan 15%
Morocco 9%

Those are scary.

Next. Is Homosexual behavior moral?
Jordan 96% no, 2% yes.
No data for Morocco.


Are honor killings permissible?
Male committed the offense
Jordan 81% No
Morocco 64% No
Female committed the offense
34% No
Morocco 65% No

Holy fuckballs.

Here is the link BTW

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

So, Jordan and Morocco do not seem all that progressive eh. But lets see what you say.

 

[Orignal Earl]

So, Jordan and Morocco do not seem all that progressive eh. But lets see what you say.

Not too progressive by my standards or maybe yours too.
But could be too progressive for a lot of other posters here

How about all the Muslim majority countries on your poll that do not support Sharia as law of the land or do not have Islam as the official religion?
Lot's of them don't even allow for religious family courts like our countries do

 

[justoh]

Separating moderate from radical islam seems a bit selfish. So many or most muslims aren't going to kill you. That's nice, I guess, though foolish to have ever thought otherwise. What about just not wanting your fellow man to live a life of delusion? Cmon guys. Think about someone other than yourselves for once :/

Can't have independent thought (or thought) while living under a celestial dictatorship. Your thoughts are constantly monitored.

Consider the children.

 

[realibrad]

Not too progressive by my standards or maybe yours too.
But could be too progressive for a lot of other posters here

How about all the Muslim majority countries on your poll that do not support Sharia as law of the land or do not have Islam as the official religion?
Lot's of them don't even allow for religious family courts like our countries do

So you say there are some progressive countries on the list. I ask you to list some. You gave 2 in a snarky way and I list big problems. You now say they are not that progressive, but there are others that are.

The fact is this, countries that are more religious are less progressive. Islam is a religion and we see the same thing. We also see Islam standing out on progressive issues. You seem to agree with the first, but pull back on the 2nd for some reason. The data is clear, but you try and view it in a way that fits your ideals, and you run into problems.

So, the target you have is that Jordan and Morocco are not as bad as other Islamic countries, but relative to the western standard they are not progressive. So we should hold Islamic countries to a different standard, because why?

 

[realibrad]

Separating moderate from radical islam seems a bit selfish. So many or most muslims aren't going to kill you. That's nice, I guess, though foolish to have ever thought otherwise. What about just not wanting your fellow man to live a life of delusion? Cmon guys. Think about someone other than yourselves for once :/

Can't have independent thought (or thought) while living under a celestial dictatorship. Your thoughts are constantly monitored.

Consider the children.

I really like your posts.

 

[blastingcap]

So you say there are some progressive countries on the list. I ask you to list some. You gave 2 in a snarky way and I list big problems. You now say they are not that progressive, but there are others that are.

I'd love to hear what he comes up with as a progressive Muslim-majority country. He was clueless to name them in the first place, especially Jordan. He clearly knows very little about the dynamics of Jordan. He's just stirring up trouble for stirring's sake. A troll.

 

[Jaskalas]

The same question by the opposite way: Would you have liked for the Jesus to have found a similar followers like Mohamed's men, to help fight his way amid all the corruption and cruelty, to clear it out, then to build a just, safe and equility-ruling nation.

The point of Jesus is that his followers were not violent. To change that would be sacrilege to the religion and the entire meaning of the story. That to follow in the teachings one must be pacifist and against violence. To be willing to bear the cross.

Pacifism is why Christian religions have been subjugated by the people and their governments, while Islam is the opposite. In Islam it's the religion doing the subjugating. Mohamed the warlord and his religion of conquest couldn't be more different than the story of Jesus.

 

[realibrad]

The point of Jesus is that his followers were not violent. To change that would be sacrilege to the religion and the entire meaning of the story. That to follow in the teachings one must be pacifist and against violence. To be willing to bear the cross.

Pacifism is why Christian religions have been subjugated by the people and their governments, while Islam is the opposite. In Islam it's the religion doing the subjugating. Mohamed the warlord and his religion of conquest couldn't be more different than the story of Jesus.

Matthew 10:34 has something to say about the narrative that Christianity is about peace.

Ill grant you that Jesus was way more peaceful than Muhammad, but he was by no means a pacifist. Further, once The Roman empire fell, Christianity started moving away from being subjected to subjection of others.

 

[Orignal Earl]

So you say there are some progressive countries on the list. I ask you to list some. You gave 2 in a snarky way and I list big problems. You now say they are not that progressive, but there are others that are.

The fact is this, countries that are more religious are less progressive. ?

It's hard to judge what your standards are
The US is more religious then several of the Muslim majority countries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country

So I guess they are more progressive then the US or does that change your fact?

It's funny how you read my 2 country response as snarky, I just picked a couple off the list

 

[realibrad]

It's hard to judge what your standards are
The US is more religious then several of the Muslim majority countries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country

So I guess they are more progressive then the US or does that change your fact?

It's funny how you read my 2 country response as snarky, I just picked a couple off the list

You honestly cant tell how the following is a little snarky?

I got all the time in the world for you brad
How about Morocco or Jordan?
Princess Grace certainly loved it in Morocco eh

Anyway, looking at your claim that the US is more religious than several Muslim countries, that is kinda stupid.

From your list, I found...4.

Below are the countries and the population that identifies as Muslims.
Albania 58.79%
Kazakhstan 70.19%
Azerbaijan 91.6%
Uzbekistan 96.3%

How in the world do you honestly make the claim that many Muslim majority countries are more religious when compared to the US? This is what I mean when you do drive by comments. You make a claim, pull some data and do zero research. Where do you get your stance from?

 

[Orignal Earl]

You honestly cant tell how the following is a little snarky?



Anyway, looking at your claim that the US is more religious than several Muslim countries, that is kinda stupid.

From your list, I found...4.

Below are the countries and the population that identifies as Muslims.
Albania 58.79%
Kazakhstan 70.19%
Azerbaijan 91.6%
Uzbekistan 96.3%

How in the world do you honestly make the claim that many Muslim majority countries are more religious when compared to the US? This is what I mean when you do drive by comments. You make a claim, pull some data and do zero research. Where do you get your stance from?

I said the US is more religious then several Muslim majority countries, I should of said the US is more religious then four Muslim majority countries.
Therefore the US is less progressive then four Muslim majority countries.

How did I do there brad? Is that up to your snuff?

 

[realibrad]

I said the US is more religious then several Muslim majority countries, I should of said the US is more religious then four Muslim majority countries.
Therefore the US is less progressive then four Muslim majority countries.

How did I do there brad? Is that up to your snuff?

It looks like I left out the likely in my statement. I should have put "The fact is this, countries that are more religious are likely less progressive." so my bad there. There is a very large difference from saying that there are many countries, and there are 4 very small countries. Its okay to admit you were wrong.

But, do you at least admit that a country that is religious is more likely less progressive?

I would also argue that holding Muslim countries to a different standard of "progressive" is insulting, because it implies they cannot keep up.

 

[woolfe9998]

I have to say, as someone who generally considers himself a progressive on many issues, I find it puzzling that fellow progressives go out of their way to defend the most illiberal cultures in the world. This isn't even just about terrorism, or even mainly about terrorism. It's about chauvinism, homophobia, rampant anti-semitism, no church/state separation. All of these things are vehemently opposed by liberals in the US, especially when coming from Christian conservatives.

It boggles the mind that liberals get into a twist about Christians wanting a moment of silence in public schools (which I also oppose BTW), but then it's not our business to speak out against straight up theocracy in Islamic countries? Or when Christians make homophobic remarks it's an outrage, but when gays are imprisoned and/or executed in Islamic countries, we have little to say?

Wake up liberals. The better part of Islamic culture is your ideological enemy. If we ever had a Muslim majority in a western country, the very liberals who defended this culture would be the first to be incarcerated and/or executed. The same liberals who are anti-theocratic, pro gay rights, and pro women's rights, how would you fare under Islamic rule? How would you as a liberal enjoy stepping into a time machine and being transported back to Christian Europe in the Middle Ages? Well, since time machines don't exist, you can just move to an Islamic country and see how that works. Same difference. These people hate you and everything you stand for, yet you're the ones defending them the loudest. Suckers.

Yeah, we know that not all Muslims are these things. No one has made a sweeping generalization to all Muslims. This straw man argument which plays like a broken record cannot be a substitute for thoughtful consideration of the systemic intolerance within Islamic culture. Liberals are not duty bound to tolerate the intolerance of others. Liberals should be condemning it loudest.

 

[Orignal Earl]

It looks like I left out the likely in my statement. I should have put "The fact is this, countries that are more religious are likely less progressive." so my bad there. There is a very large difference from saying that there are many countries, and there are 4 very small countries. Its okay to admit you were wrong.

But, do you at least admit that a country that is religious is more likely less progressive?

I would also argue that holding Muslim countries to a different standard of "progressive" is insulting, because it implies they cannot keep up.

I was wrong based on your adding the word "likely"?
lol oh brad...

The US is no where near as progressive as the rest of the West and even seems to be regressing
Don't take that as an insult, you guys just have a different standard of progressive

 

[blastingcap]

I was wrong based on your adding the word "likely"?
lol oh brad...

The US is no where near as progressive as the rest of the West and even seems to be regressing
Don't take that as an insult, you guys just have a different standard of progressive

Please stop deflecting. Name a progressive Muslim-majority country.

 

[realibrad]

I was wrong based on your adding the word "likely"?
lol oh brad...

The US is no where near as progressive as the rest of the West and even seems to be regressing
Don't take that as an insult, you guys just have a different standard of progressive

No, you are wrong because you said many Muslim majority countries were less religious than the US when in fact that is wrong. The fact that I forgot to put in a word does not change your claim.

Where the US stands in terms of being progressive has nothing to do with Muslim majority countries not being progressive.

So, again, name a Muslim majority country that is progressive by your standard.

 

[dank69]

I have to say, as someone who generally considers himself a progressive on many issues, I find it puzzling that fellow progressives go out of their way to defend the most illiberal cultures in the world. This isn't even just about terrorism, or even mainly about terrorism. It's about chauvinism, homophobia, rampant anti-semitism, no church/state separation. All of these things are vehemently opposed by liberals in the US, especially when coming from Christian conservatives.

It boggles the mind that liberals get into a twist about Christians wanting a moment of silence in public schools (which I also oppose BTW), but then it's not our business to speak out against straight up theocracy in Islamic countries? Or when Christians make homophobic remarks it's an outrage, but when gays are imprisoned and/or executed in Islamic countries, we have little to say?

Wake up liberals. The better part of Islamic culture is your ideological enemy. If we ever had a Muslim majority in a western country, the very liberals who defended this culture would be the first to be incarcerated and/or executed. The same liberals who are anti-theocratic, pro gay rights, and pro women's rights, how would you fare under Islamic rule? How would you as a liberal enjoy stepping into a time machine and being transported back to Christian Europe in the Middle Ages? Well, since time machines don't exist, you can just move to an Islamic country and see how that works. Same difference. These people hate you and everything you stand for, yet you're the ones defending them the loudest. Suckers.

Yeah, we know that not all Muslims are these things. No one has made a sweeping generalization to all Muslims. This straw man argument which plays like a broken record cannot be a substitute for thoughtful consideration of the systemic intolerance within Islamic culture. Liberals are not duty bound to tolerate the intolerance of others. Liberals should be condemning it loudest.

I am pretty sure most liberals condemn the intolerant actions and beliefs of Islam.