WARNING: Watching Anti-Islam Videos Leads to Independent Thought!!

[lotus503]

Let's stop making this about Christianity vs Islam because it's not. Look at China, India, Japan, etc.

Also, what world do you live in where jihadis weren't fired up prior to 2003? WTC ring a bell? 1993, 2001? Embassy bombings? Most scholars think the real firing up was the Afghan War where the West tried to arm Muslim jihadis and encouraged them to attack the Soviets. Only the jihadis didn't stop after the Russian withdrawal, they just kept going.

Although I think you could then realign your argument with the Afghan invasion rather than the Iraq invasion. Same argument, different country.

It almost makes me wish the Ottoman Empire survived. Then they would be tasked with keeping the crazies in their Empire under control.

I was responding to your contention of false equivalencies where you mention Christianity, now you want to stop talking about it and contrasting it.

If you think Jihadist's were as fired up prior to the first gulf war as they were after your being obtuse. Osama stated clearly he wanted mujahadeen to fight against the regime of Saddam Hussein. But no Saudi Arabia had us do it instead and that's when shit started getting heated and went south.

 

[realibrad]

You have no interest in an honest debate.

Example, opening line of dishonest bullshit: "Yeah and if you believe that Indonesia is anywhere near as free as the West".

Do I? Did I ever make that claim? Did anyone else?

Bottom line, Not worth the effort, you can go back to pretending that you know what you're talking about and I'll go back to ignoring you. Have a nice day.

I took what he meant as freedom in terms of religion. If that is the case then he is spot on as I explained in my post. Indonesia is not a secular state as defined by what the word means.

Secular: denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis. The fact that the country has a blasphemy is reason enough alone as it inherently means you are not free to say there is not a god, or insult a religion.

 

[realibrad]

I was responding to your contention of false equivalencies where you mention Christianity, now you want to stop talking about it and contrasting it.

If you think Jihadist's were as fired up prior to the first gulf war as they were after your being obtuse. Osama stated clearly he wanted mujahadeen to fight against the regime of Saddam Hussein. But no Saudi Arabia had us do it instead and that's when shit started getting heated and went south.

He only brought up Christianity to say that others bring it up to shift the conversation. He did not use Christianity to further his main point. He is now asking to skip it, because it regularly shifts the topic to issues that are not connected to what he wanted.

 

[blastingcap]

I was responding to your contention of false equivalencies where you mention Christianity, now you want to stop talking about it and contrasting it.

If you think Jihadist's were as fired up prior to the first gulf war as they were after your being obtuse. Osama stated clearly he wanted mujahadeen to fight against the regime of Saddam Hussein. But no Saudi Arabia had us do it instead and that's when shit started getting heated and went south.

I was arguing against false equivalencies involving Christianity. If you want to argue that Islam is the same as Christianity and just needs more time to evolve, that's a tired argument imho. How many thousands of years does one need to evolve? Other countries like Japan and China caught up in a hurry without either. But perhaps I am misconstruing your point.

As for jihadis, you name Osama but you know that he was a mujahadeen in Afghanistan right? Al Qaeda's tree grew from the Afghan conflict's soil. AQ attacked the USA repeatedly. They are one of the rare jihadi groups to want to attack to West directly; most are more concerned with Muslim-populated lands. Iraq 2003 added fuel, but to a fire that was already burning.

Thus I argue that the root of modern jihadism is the Afghan Conflict.

 

[blastingcap]

You have no interest in an honest debate.

Example, opening line of dishonest bullshit: "Yeah and if you believe that Indonesia is anywhere near as free as the West".

Do I? Did I ever make that claim? Did anyone else?

Bottom line, Not worth the effort, you can go back to pretending that you know what you're talking about and I'll go back to ignoring you. Have a nice day.

Give me a break, you inserted yourself into a conversation about naming progressive Islamic states. You cited Indonesia and cited to their laws about religious freedom. I offered a rebuttal based on facts on the ground as reported by many, many organizations. You offer no counter-rebuttal other than sniffing that I exaggerated your position. Okay then don't name Indonesia as a progressive Islamic country then. They aren't the worst apple in the barrel by a long shot but neither do they live up to their legal declarations.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Earl has a habit of making claims and not backing anything up with facts.

One of them is calling me a pussy for using wiki to get the facts, and the other is claiming I don't use facts.
Then they praise each other about it

Things that make a guy lol and shake his head in disbelief

 

[lotus503]

I was arguing against false equivalencies involving Christianity. If you want to argue that Islam is the same as Christianity and just needs more time to evolve, that's a tired argument imho. How many thousands of years does one need to evolve? Other countries like Japan and China caught up in a hurry without either.

As for jihadis, you name Osama but you know that he was a mujahadeen in Afghanistan right? Al Qaeda's tree grew from the Afghan conflict's soil. AQ attacked the USA repeatedly. They are one of the rare jihadi groups to want to attack to West directly; most are more concerned with Muslim-populated lands. Iraq 2003 added fuel, but to a fire that was already burning.

Lets clear up a misunderstanding here. I am not saying Christianity and Islam are the same. I am simply recognizing that a big part of the Islamic world lives like we did 1000 years ago.

This issue is much much deeper. I mean we are talking about people that literally believe when they blow themselves up they are going to be fucking a whole lot of virgins. Consider for a bit what must be going on in that society and culture where that's a common popular belief.

And they don't just think that's whats going to happen they know it within the core of their belief, they are cooped at a very early age and indoctrinated with this shit. Its more cultish than typical modern western religions.

My point is it thrives in poverty, oppression and other social and cultural eco-systems that don't exist elsewhere. I think they key to Islam is evolving starts with changing that cultural, societal ecosystem.

 

[blastingcap]

One of them is calling me a pussy for using wiki to get the facts, and the other is claiming I don't use facts.
Then they praise each other about it

Things that make a guy lol and shake his head in disbelief

Nobody called you a "pussy." I called you a "punk" and "troll" for not knowing enough about Islam to even be able to name a secular Islamic country without resorting to Wikipedia. You're over your head but you don't care because you're just having a good time trolling.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I am simply recognizing that a big part of the Islamic world lives like we did 1000 years ago.

My point is it thrives in poverty, oppression and other social and cultural eco-systems that don't exist elsewhere.

A large part of the world lives like we did a thousand years ago.
Half the people in the world have never made a phone call
Millions of people in China still live in caves, Africa and India has millions still living in huts

 

[blastingcap]

Okay I see that line of argument; I think there is some truth to it but there have also been some articles looking at stats for Daesh and perhaps surprisingly, the typical Daeshi from a Western country is from a middle-class-or-higher background. Osama himself was from a very wealthy family. So I don't think it's as simple as saying that bad living conditions foster extremism. It probably doesn't help, but there's more to it than that.

Also, there are comparably poor/oppressed non-Muslims in other parts of the world who do not go nuts and blow themselves up in the name of God. I can't even name 10 Buddhist or Hindu suicide bombing incidents.

Lets clear up a misunderstanding here. I am not saying Christianity and Islam are the same. I am simply recognizing that a big part of the Islamic world lives like we did 1000 years ago.

This issue is much much deeper. I mean we are talking about people that literally believe when they blow themselves up they are going to be fucking a whole lot of virgins. Consider for a bit what must be going on in that society and culture where that's a common popular belief.

And they don't just think that's whats going to happen they know it within the core of their belief, they are cooped at a very early age and indoctrinated with this shit. Its more cultish than typical western religions.

My point is it thrives in poverty, oppression and other social and cultural eco-systems that don't exist elsewhere. I think they key to Islam is evolving starts with changing that cultural, societal ecosystem.

 

[lotus503]

A large part of the world lives like we did a thousand years ago.
Half the people in the world have never made a phone call
Millions of people in China still live in caves, Africa and India has millions still living in huts

Sure and in that environment its easier to sell kooky ideas. Just like it was during the spanish inquisition.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Nobody called you a "pussy." I called you a "punk" and "troll" for not knowing enough about Islam to even be able to name a secular Islamic country without resorting to Wikipedia. You're over your head but you don't care because you're just having a good time trolling.

I went to wiki to get the complete list.
I've had this same convo on this board a couple dozen times before over the last decade

 

[blastingcap]

I went to wiki to get the complete list.
I've had this same convo on this board a couple dozen times before over the last decade

You were asked if you could name a single progressive Muslim country, not all of them. And you still haven't selected any of those as progressive, instead saying that if Wikipedia lists it as secular, then that's good enough for you to consider it progressive. Wow, great analysis there, bro.

 

[lotus503]

Okay I see that line of argument; I think there is some truth to it but there have also been some articles looking at stats for Daesh and perhaps surprisingly, the typical Daeshi from a Western country is from a middle-class-or-higher background. Osama himself was from a very wealthy family. So I don't think it's as simple as saying that bad living conditions foster extremism. It probably doesn't help, but there's more to it than that.

Also, there are comparably poor/oppressed non-Muslims in other parts of the world who do not go nuts and blow themselves up in the name of God. I can't even name 10 Buddhist or Hindu suicide bombing incidents.

Well you bring up an interesting point and line of thought.

1. We know other poor people that don't do nutty stuff.
2. We know other religions that don't do nutty stuff

I personally don't think its simply a matter of religious beliefs I think its a number of factors heavily weighted to specific societal, cultural and economic factors. That doesn't account for western educated wealthy suicide bombers, but its possible they have different motivations than a 12 year old that blow themselves up at a market.

Maryters are celebrated in much of the Islamic world, they get virgins, shrines dedicated to them and money for their family. If I'm indoctrinated well and early that may look like a pretty damn good deal when compared to sheep herding.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I can't even name 10 Buddhist or Hindu suicide bombing incidents.

Your media is focused on what plays with American interests
If you watched Chinese or Indian news you would see more of it

I'm sure I posted this already to you just lately? Maybe in this same thread

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

Here is Hindu terrorists training suicide bombers against Islamic and Christian zealots and commies

Hindu Al-Qaeda' training suicide bombers in Nepal

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...suicide-bombers-in-nepal/article1-231358.aspx

 

[Orignal Earl]

You were asked if you could name a single progressive Muslim country, not all of them. And you still haven't selected any of those as progressive, instead saying that if Wikipedia lists it as secular, then that's good enough for you to consider it progressive. Wow, great analysis there, bro.

I said I would consider all Muslim majority countries that are secular as progressive.
I then listed all the secular majority countries.
What is it you cannot grasp?

 

[blastingcap]

Your media is focused on what plays with American interests
If you watched Chinese or Indian news you would see more of it

I'm sure I posted this already to you just lately? Maybe in this same thread

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

Here is Hindu terrorists training suicide bombers against Islamic and Christian zealots and commies

Hindu Al-Qaeda' training suicide bombers in Nepal

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...suicide-bombers-in-nepal/article1-231358.aspx

People of all religions can be violent; I don't think anyone here is arguing otherwise, but rather: which religion has the greatest propensity to induce violence in the name of the religion?

Re: suicide bombings, not saying it doesn't happen, just that it is not a routine occurrence.

I said I would consider all Muslim majority countries that are secular as progressive.
I then listed all the secular majority countries.
What is it you cannot grasp?

In other words you are agreeing with what I said.

 

[Orignal Earl]

People of all religions can be violent; I don't think anyone here is arguing otherwise, but rather: which religion has the greatest propensity to induce violence in the name of the religion?

Out of all the Islamic terrorist groups, which ones are doing it solely in the name of Islam?

edit- Islamic just means Muslim, as in any terror group comprised of Muslims

 

[blastingcap]

Out of all the Islamic terrorist groups, which ones are doing it solely in the name of Islam?

edit- Islamic just means Muslim, as in any terror group comprised of Muslims

You injected your own word into my sentence, and I'm not taking your bait.

I believe we have unfinished business to take care of, anyway: name a progressive Islamic country. Explain the rationale, other than "because Wikipedia lists it as secular."

 

[Orignal Earl]

You injected your own word into my sentence, and I'm not taking your bait.

I believe we have unfinished business to take care of, anyway: name a progressive Islamic country. Explain the rationale, other than "because Wikipedia lists it as secular."

My bait? You asked the question which religion
Did you need to frame Islamic terrorism as all inclusive to make your statement true?

I think a Muslim majority country that is secular is being progressive.
You seem to have a problem with that, and want to frame the argument on your terms again

 

[realibrad]

My bait? You asked the question which religion
Did you need to frame Islamic terrorism as all inclusive to make your statement true?

I think a Muslim majority country that is secular is being progressive.
You seem to have a problem with that, and want to frame the argument on your terms again

Its a move toward progression, but it does not make it progressive. Just like how if I paint the door of my car blue, my car is more blue, but its not a blue car.

So, name a Muslim majority country, and why they are overall progressive.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Its a move toward progression, but it does not make it progressive. Just like how if I paint the door of my car blue, my car is more blue, but its not a blue car.

So, name a Muslim majority country, and why they are overall progressive.

I don't know any overall progressive country
Can you give an example of an overall progressive country

 

[justoh]

They're progressive relative to other muslim countries or to a former self. Isn't it always relative? How could progression not be progressive? What's the point of this argument anyway? I mean you're not staff.

 

[realibrad]

I don't know any overall progressive country
Can you give an example of an overall progressive country

And there it is. Everything is all bad, and thus there is no such thing as a progressive country. This is the very thing I talked about. Those on the left use relativism and all things are equal so who is to judge right?

 

[Orignal Earl]

And there it is. Everything is all bad, and thus there is no such thing as a progressive country. This is the very thing I talked about. Those on the left use relativism and all things are equal so who is to judge right?

I said out of the 50 Muslim majority countries there had to be a few that could be role models
You started the whole wacky progressive string