[vrzone] GTX670Ti in March

[atticus14]

Eeeeh:
different generation
same generation

Not really comparable?

Why aren't they comparable? Top offerings from both camps 7970 wins hands down, 580 doesn't even drop in price as a retaliation. As a consumer what else am I comparing...do i give nvidia mercy points and buy their product anyway since its not fair that they dont have a 28nm part out yet?

 

[Grooveriding]

nVidia can price them what ever they desire -- AMD can price them what ever they desire.

Personally like strong performance/value.

Then stop polluting the forum with your incessant complaining and go buy a GTX 560 or a 6950 2GB. Halo cards are not about price/performance, they're about being the best.

Your constant complaining about this is hilarious.

 

[Bobisuruncle54]

You're right, that's the first thing I notice too. April 2010 I bought a HD 5870 2GB Eye6 for ~$500, it was about...10-15% slower than my recently deceased HD 4870x2, and about the same in cost.
This time I'd be buying an HD 7970 probably in the ~$600 range that is about 60% faster stock.

So, yeah, that's the first thing I notice, as a gamer.



Wait, wait...MSRP went up but performance didn't match it 1:1, and that was fine, perfectly fine, but this time it isn't?

Aren't you the one that claimed consistency?

Go Premiums!

A 5870 is not slower than the 4870X2, partly because it has superior minimums. I know this because I personally extensively benchmarked both cards when I had them. The 5870 slaughtered the X2 when it came to AA as well.

Ridiculous.

Also compare the equivalent cards please, don't pick a 4890, that's bunk.

2900xt - 3870 - 4870 - 5870 - 6970 - 7970.

 

[Grooveriding]

Sure, why not. We all live in a world were we ignore reality around here. Cost of Living is eating away at the middle class, and here people are complaining about halo card prices, and the trickle effect.

When did we become so entitled? I should start boycotting Land of Lakes cheese, the cost per lb has gone up but the amount I get has not. That seems like a robbery. Haha.

Well I heard so much about the $300 card nvidia is going to release that is faster than a 7970, I'm assuming this is the card ?

I'm sure SirPauly is going to be buying this $300 card that is faster than a 7970 because he loves price/performance. This is the card, right ?

Please don't tell me this card is going to cost $400, or heaven forbid, $450!! Then we'll have to listen to SirPauly complain about this card when it releases and it not being good on price/performance

 

[blackened23]

Indeed! What ever happened when gamers strongly defended price/performance? Now, it is strongly defend premiums -- go figure.

Okay, respectfully, can you clarify this: I don't like premiums either. Let me make that clear. However, these arguments don't hold much weight IMO.

1) Nvidia has been more egregious about pricing their halo parts outrageously -- undisputable fact

2) Bashing AMD on price is pretty ironic, because nvidia has clearly been worse in this regard

3) Stating that "well 7970 only beats GTX 580 by 25%!" -- That arguments holds no water because nvidia has done the same many times. GTX 580 was 10% faster than 6970, as shown here:

While costing a good 150$ additional on average. If you want a GTX 580 capable of doing 3d surround resolutions, those still cost 170$ additional over the 6970. (the 2gb 6970 can do 3d surround no sweat).

4) Then we can go back to the argument that GTX 480 was *barely* faster than the 5870, yet commanded a 120$ price premium.

So in summary, we see that nvidia has done the same thing, except MUCH MORE OFTEN. I don't defend price premiums but bashing AMD on this principle, is ridiculous. If you want to vilify prices, vilify both companies. Neither company is innocent, but nvidia has been worse in this regard by a wide margin. My position is simple. I don't like high prices either, but I don't expect Halo parts to offer any value whatsoever. Halo parts are not meant to be values period.

 

[railven]

Indeed! What ever happened when gamers strongly defended price/performance? Now, it is strongly defend premiums -- go figure.

This is just amusing. The more I look at this, the more I see the exact same trends. The percentages haven't really changed for these halo parts. Outside of the GTX 480 to GTX 580 situation, they are identical for the last 3 generations.

Now we wait for NVidia to respond and continue the trends or pull an HD 4870 and cause the roof to collapse. Until then, I can only argue what is at hand.

So what are we defending? Oh yeah,

Go Premiums!

If you feel comparing 28nm technologies with a new arch against a 14+ month old, 40nm, already premium priced product sku and receiving that small amount of performance value as some sort of substantial win of some kind -- there ya go.

I never realized that the GTX 580 was going to be used as some sort of objective pricing barometer to so many consumers and gamers out there -- how silly of me to desire more price/performance out of a substantial and significant node change with a new arch.

Sorry guy, in the end none of that matters to me. I thought we were looking at MSRPs. If Die Shrinks are at suppose to present cost savings to consumers, we've been paying premiums since the start.

Or, are we hitting some kind of diminishing returns with these shrinks? Hell, Intel the gods of fabrication seem to be having some issues. I dunno.

You always claim to make statements as a "gamer" yet defend nVidia and their even more insane price increases all the time - oh sorry you deflect and point at the GTX x70 of the series. Gotcha.

Go Premiums!

 

[thilanliyan]

So in summary, we see that nvidia has done the same thing, except MUCH MORE OFTEN. I don't defend price premiums but bashing AMD on this principle, is ridiculous. If you want to vilify prices, vilify both companies. Neither company is innocent, but nvidia has been worse in this regard by a wide margin.

But...but...PhysX, better drivers, SLI (which sounds cooler than Xfire), plus JHH is my best friend!! nV COMMANDS a higher premium and would NEVER rip us off, only AMD and their evil new CEO who preys on baby seals and consumers would!!

 

[atticus14]

Well I heard so much about the $300 card nvidia is going to release that is faster than a 7970, I'm assuming this is the card ?

I'm sure SirPauly is going to be buying this $300 card that is faster than a 7970 because he loves price/performance. This is the card, right ?

Please don't tell me this card is going to cost $400, or heaven forbid, $450!! Then we'll have to listen to SirPauly complain about this card when it releases and it not being good on price/performance

honestly it doesnt look good, because at first the rumors were branding it a 660 series which 300 bucks might have been acceptable, but now the rumors are shifting toward a 670 branding, the 7 adds another $100 easily. Much like their release dates, instead of making it to the endzone the goal posts are simply being moved.

 

[boxleitnerb]

Why aren't they comparable? Top offerings from both camps 7970 wins hands down, 580 doesn't even drop in price as a retaliation. As a consumer what else am I comparing...do i give nvidia mercy points and buy their product anyway since its not fair that they dont have a 28nm part out yet?

Would you make the same argument if the "delay" between Tahiti and Kepler was one week? I don't see why one would include impatience into the equation: I'm hoping that most people who are not in dire need of a new card right now have the sense and wait and compare the 7970 to what will be its actual competitor. The 580 is EOL. It comes down to how people judge the time difference between Tahiti and Kepler. I don't think 2 months are really that big a deal and I don't feel the need to make unfair comparisons...yet.

You know, it's not like Kepler is far away. It has taped out months ago, AIBs have cards, first NDAs have been signed. If the situation were different, I would agree that it was valid to compare 580 to 7970.

And what is a halo card?
The premium for the fastest card within a generation is more justified than the premium for a halo card of a new generation that is only the halo card because it came out 2 months earlier than the competition. From new generation you would usually expect better price/perf than what we got with Tahiti (and Cape Verde and probably Pitcairn).

Q1: Who thinks that the 7970 will stay the fastest card until the refresh comes in 2013 (supposedly)? The 480 and 580 were expensive, yes, but they held the crown until the next generation. I doubt Tahiti will be able to do that.

Q2: Who thinks that a 7970 is significantly cheaper to make than a 580?

 

[railven]

A 5870 is not slower than the 4870X2, partly because it has superior minimums. I know this because I personally extensively benchmarked both cards when I had them. The 5870 slaughtered the X2 when it came to AA as well.

Ridiculous.

I'm sure in certain games the HD 5870 was faster, but in the games I played at the time, outside of microstutter, the HD 5870 was slower in some and faster in others. Overall I'd peg it slower in general versus the games I was playing. Since my card died before I got my 5870 I can only go by memory (which I'm not saying is definitive.) If you benched it extensively, by all means. I just went back to see some benches and the HD 5870 is a tad slower in some games, and a tad faster in others.

Also compare the equivalent cards please, don't pick a 4890, that's bunk.

2900xt - 3870 - 4870 - 5870 - 6970 - 7970.

How is the HD 4890 not comparable? It was the top end HD 4K card when the HD 5870 launched? Because it was a refresh? So then we can't even include the whole GTX 5 series since it was essentially a refresh, I'd argue partially to exclude the HD 6K series too.

Or should we just focus on availability of cards and their going prices? What other restrictions should we set?

"Don't use the HD xxxx card, it doesn't prove my point." That's how we play these games around here?

 

[SirPauly]

This is just amusing. The more I look at this, the more I see the exact same trends. The percentages haven't really changed for these halo parts. Outside of the GTX 480 to GTX 580 situation, they are identical for the last 3 generations.

Now we wait for NVidia to respond and continue the trends or pull an HD 4870 and cause the roof to collapse. Until then, I can only argue what is at hand.

So what are we defending? Oh yeah,

Go Premiums!



Sorry guy, in the end none of that matters to me. I thought we were looking at MSRPs. If Die Shrinks are at suppose to present cost savings to consumers, we've been paying premiums since the start.

Or, are we hitting some kind of diminishing returns with these shrinks? Hell, Intel the gods of fabrication seem to be having some issues. I dunno.

You always claim to make statements as a "gamer" yet defend nVidia and their even more insane price increases all the time - oh sorry you deflect and point at the GTX x70 of the series. Gotcha.

Go Premiums!

Personally don't recall anyone strongly defend premiums so much except for Rollo.

 

[railven]

But...but...PhysX, better drivers, SLI (which sounds cooler than Xfire), plus JHH is my best friend!! nV COMMANDS a higher premium and would NEVER rip us off, only AMD and their evil new CEO who preys on baby seals and consumers would!!

But JHH is my best friend! He said so in a letter! :'(

For the record, I don't even know who that Hector Ruiz guy was, just that he's nick named Ruins haha.

 

[railven]

Personally don't recall anyone strongly defend premiums so much except for Rollo.

You should read more forum posts. Unless a lot of users who still post now are Rollo.

Once the new GTX card comes out, and if it cost more, we'll see the flags swap hands. The circle of life will continue.

Go Premiums! $2,000 GPUs in 2013!

EDIT: OOOHHH, I see what you did there. Noted.

 

[SirPauly]

You should read more forum posts. Unless a lot of users who still post now are Rollo.

Once the new GTX card comes out, and if it cost more, we'll see the flags swap hands. The circle of life will continue.

Go Premiums! $2,000 GPUs in 2013!

EDIT: OOOHHH, I see what you did there. Noted.

Don't worry about me. Curious to see what Kepler may offer for performance/value.

 

[maddie]

If you (anyone here) have a product to sell, how do you price it?

Do you compare it to the overall existing price/performance ecosystem?

Do you only consider your own line of products in this calculation?

Do you consider your competitors products as being relevant?

Answers might be instructive.

 

[f1sherman]

Hopefully AMD has something to counter, because 340mm2 is tiny for Nvidia die.

It would be truly embarrassing, if AMD's halo part loses to competition's performance chip.

Come to think of maybe that's why Eric Demers is out??

 

[railven]

Q1: Who thinks that the 7970 will stay the fastest card until the refresh comes in 2013 (supposedly)? The 480 and 580 were expensive, yes, but they held the crown until the next generation. I doubt Tahiti will be able to do that.

Q2: Who thinks that a 7970 is significantly cheaper to make than a 580?

Oh hey, I missed these - I'll answer:

Q1: I don't think the HD 7970 will stay the fastest card. The GTX 480/580 launched after, and raised the price cap. They didn't reduce price (no new cards for a whole year.) I don't see what that has to do with anything? If anything, it reinforces what we've been arguing - when competition arises, the markets shift. Sadly, there has been such a stagnation that prices just increase regardless of nodes or whatever. And since now AMD isn't lying down, there is a high chance it will continue, UNLESS, see below:

Q2: I wouldn't know, I read 28nm has issues, so without knowing more about cost per wafer, etc, my guess is as good as yours. However, I'd understand once the manufacturing gets better, the cost would be cheaper (through just simple math, same size wafer at same cost == more 28nm than 40nm yields.) And when that point is reached (whether today or tomorrow) I'd expect cards to drop pricing. Or AMD can be a douche and drop the HD 7970 to $300 price just to catch nVidia off gaurd when they release, and those of us that bought at $550 suffer Early Adopter syndrome (don't cry for us Argentina) and then the consumers all win - well those willing to buy AMD I guess.

Eitherway, by the time any of the stuff I mentioned possibly happens, I'd have bought a card and not really care. Since, I know how these markets work and here's a trade secret - if you wait until Black Friday, chances are you'll get stuff cheaper but shhhhh don't tell too many people.

 

[railven]

Don't worry about me. Curious to see what Kepler may offer for performance/value.

You and I both.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Would you make the same argument if the "delay" between Tahiti and Kepler was one week? I don't see why one would include impatience into the equation: I'm hoping that most people who are not in dire need of a new card right now have the sense and wait and compare the 7970 to what will be its actual competitor. The 580 is EOL. It comes down to how people judge the time difference between Tahiti and Kepler. I don't think 2 months are really that big a deal and I don't feel the need to make unfair comparisons...yet.

You know, it's not like Kepler is far away. It has taped out months ago, AIBs have cards, first NDAs have been signed. If the situation were different, I would agree that it was valid to compare 580 to 7970.

And what is a halo card?
The premium for the fastest card within a generation is more justified than the premium for a halo card of a new generation that is only the halo card because it came out 2 months earlier than the competition. From new generation you would usually expect better price/perf than what we got with Tahiti (and Cape Verde and probably Pitcairn).

Q1: Who thinks that the 7970 will stay the fastest card until the refresh comes in 2013 (supposedly)? The 480 and 580 were expensive, yes, but they held the crown until the next generation. I doubt Tahiti will be able to do that.

Q2: Who thinks that a 7970 is significantly cheaper to make than a 580?

Source for this statement please?

 

[Leadbox]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirPauly
Don't worry about me. Curious to see what Kepler may offer for performance/value.
You and I both.

You and I both.

With yields "lower than expected" and them having to pay per wafer, I'm guessing not a lot, but you can +1 me to your list

 

[AtenRa]

Nostradamus (AtenRa) :twisted:

-January 9th 2012, AMD launched the HD7970 at $549 being the fastest single chip card.(1)

-February 15th 2012, NV made clear that 28nm yields are lower than expected and more wafers are needed. (2) :whiste:

-March 21th 2012, AMD launched the HD7870 at $299 being equal to HD6970.(3)

AMD have established the new 28nm Graphics Cards price/performance.(4)

-April 9th 2012 NV launched the GTX680 at $649 (30% faster than Tahiti) :sneaky:

(1+2+3+4) New 28nm Graphics Card Prices World Order emerges (dramatic i know)

April 10th 2012, AtenRa receives the Anandtech Forums Nostradamus award 2012 :biggrin::biggrin:

 

[blackened23]

Source for this statement please?

I think it may be true, but for the GK104 only. We only have a series of cryptic messages from various BB's, nothing official obviously. We won't get anything official on a topic such as this. GK110/112/whatever they decide to call it is Q3-Q4. So no GTX 680 for a long time, unless they somehow spin a GK104 variant into the 680.

 

[toyota]

Source for this statement please?

if you are referring to NDAs, those appear to have been handed out yesterday. http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1038407585&postcount=344

 

[SirPauly]

Halo cards are not about price/performance, they're about being the best.

Your constant complaining about this is hilarious.

Sure they are, not at the same levels as the performance sector but to say not about price/performance at all, considering it is a new arch and new node is odd.

 

[railven]

Nostradamus (AtenRa) :twisted:

<snip>

April 10th 2012, AtenRa receives the Anandtech Forums Nostradamus award 2012 :biggrin::biggrin:

Haha, if you get 3/4 I'd vote for you Much better than all the other people making predictions.

You seem level headed about costs - do you think the world finacial crisis at all plays into the increased costs we are seeing?

Call me dumb, but when I see everything around me going up in price, why would I not think of the same situation in my electronics? Xbox360 SKU worth owning still cost $300 7 years into it's life I remember 4 years into the PS2/GC/XBox1 they were all half or less then what they released at.