[vrzone] GTX670Ti in March

[Arzachel]

I love how people like you try to make more out of what I said than whats there. I already acknowledged that prices can go up and down. my comment was only for those that think it is perfectly normal to go up 50% in price over the previous gen. its NOT normal and rarely happens so that is the whole damn point. and of course I am comparing the 7970 price to the 6970 as that is the card that it replaced.

You're quite conveniently ignoring the fact that the 6970 has never been the fastest single GPU card on the market so any "replacement" argument falls flat on it's face.

 

[boxleitnerb]

What? It is faster than the 580 by a good amount which costs $450+...why isn't the pricetag justified? Seriously, where were all these people complaining about price when nV launches at $650? Or $800+ even? Why are you not saying the 580 pricetag is no longer justified?

nV charges top dollar for their top cards. AMD is not allowed to do the same? If there was more competition maybe AMD would price these cards cheaper, until there is, why should they? Just to make some forum goers happy?

$650 and $800 were ridiculous, too. The 580 is too expensive as well, as it is no longer the fastest part. However, it is probably EOL and no new chips are sold to the AIBs. It is their obligation now to lower the prices if the cards are not selling.

Personally I would never pay $550 for a nextgen card that only surpasses the GTX580 by ca. 30%. Do 60% and you have my money. I don't care if it is Nvidia, AMD, Matrox or Santa Clause - in my opinion this card is not good value, even for the fastest part that always had a premium. Would you have bought a HD5870 (roughly the same increase over the 285 as the 7970 has over the 580 now) for 550? And that card had DX11, SGSSAA and Eyefinity as new strong arguments.
Sorry, just my personal opinion.

 

[toyota]

You're quite conveniently ignoring the fact that the 6970 has never been the fastest single GPU card on the market so any "replacement" argument falls flat on it's face.

lol, and NONE of that matters. are you people so damn thick that you cant see my simple comment for what it was? AGAIN all I basically said was the if every next card went up 50% we would be screwed. some people acted like that was normal when its not. if it was normal then do the math and figure out how many thousands of dollars a gpu would be right now. prices cant do that every time so stop trying to make this more than that.

 

[Imouto]

I wonder what would happen to the CPU high end market with ppl asking for a 60% increase from a 980X to a 3960X.

 

[railven]

$650 and $800 were ridiculous, too. The 580 is too expensive as well, as it is no longer the fastest part. However, it is probably EOL and no new chips are sold to the AIBs. It is their obligation now to lower the prices if the cards are not selling.

Personally I would never pay $550 for a nextgen card that only surpasses the GTX580 by ca. 30%. Do 60% and you have my money. I don't care if it is Nvidia, AMD, Matrox or Santa Clause - in my opinion this card is not good value, even for the fastest part that always had a premium. Would you have bought a HD5870 (roughly the same increase over the 285 as the 7970 has over the 580 now) for 550? And that card had DX11, SGSSAA and Eyefinity as new strong arguments.
Sorry, just my personal opinion.

Only focusing on your second part: When I buy I try to find value in all the crevices. I don't just look at stock settings for example. My buying window is open, and I have three options (unless GTX 680 comes out, but I don't think it will) and they are GTX 580 or HD 7950/70, if time permits, a fourth option of the GTX 670 Ti. Anyways, with Overclocking the card is easily 40-50% faster in specific scenarios. And I buy mostly for games I play, which BF3 isn't one of them since I sucked ass and just hid in a corner.)

Coming from a 5870, that is almost 100% improvement and tess heavy games, I saw 200% improvements (Batman: AC.)

I paid $500 for my HD 5870 2GB Eye6 at launch. It offered something no card on the market had - 6 display output. Something I needed for an experiment (which paid off nicely.) Value is subjective, which is why I personally laugh when people try to argue it. Price is definite, we can argue price, but value. I dunno. I don't think many of you would have found the value I did in my card, but then again, I don't know how many of you wanted to run 6 displays, in three different rooms from one PC. I'm so torn on my next card because I want to keep at least 5 displays hooked up, only one card offers that right now.

 

[omeds]

Meh other cards may have been priced higher in the past, and sure I think GTX580 is currently too expensive, but seriously the 7970 price is far too high imo, at least for the performance they offer over previous gen on a new node and arc. They didnt even bring new features to the table to bring them up to par, except Transparency AA & SSAA which I think is a great move by AMD, kudos.

 

[boxleitnerb]

You cannot compare CPUs and GPUs, they are totally different. Workloads are different. Just not comparable. Look at the last 5 years since G80. We got at least 60% increase on a new generation (new process node) every single time.

 

[boxleitnerb]

Only focusing on your second part: When I buy I try to find value in all the crevices. I don't just look at stock settings for example. My buying window is open, and I have three options (unless GTX 680 comes out, but I don't think it will) and they are GTX 580 or HD 7950/70, if time permits, a fourth option of the GTX 670 Ti. Anyways, with Overclocking the card is easily 40-50% faster in specific scenarios. And I buy mostly for games I play, which BF3 isn't one of them since I sucked ass and just hid in a corner.)

Coming from a 5870, that is almost 100% improvement and tess heavy games, I saw 200% improvements (Batman: AC.)

I paid $500 for my HD 5870 2GB Eye6 at launch. It offered something no card on the market had - 6 display output. Something I needed for an experiment (which paid off nicely.) Value is subjective, which is why I personally laugh when people try to argue it. Price is definite, we can argue price, but value. I dunno. I don't think many of you would have found the value I did in my card, but then again, I don't know how many of you wanted to run 6 displays, in three different rooms from one PC. I'm so torn on my next card because I want to keep at least 5 displays hooked up, only one card offers that right now.

Okay, you're talking OC and specific scenarios. I'm talking about stock and average (if you're not CPU bound of course). You can always find scenarios where a new card excels. Like Fermi and the fixed 8xMSAA or HD6000/7000 and the fixed tessellation. I don't want to limit myself to these cases, I want great performance everywhere out of the box.
What if your 7970 doesn't go past 1100? Do you return it? What if it becomes unbearably loud under load and you have to install a 3rd party cooler, loosing warranty? As I said - OC is no substitute for a genuine faster card. Some people may not mind these things but in general it's not a valid argument.

 

[railven]

lol, and NONE of that matters. are you people so damn thick that you cant see my simple comment for what it was? AGAIN all I basically said was the if every next card went up 50% we would be screwed. some people acted like that was normal when its not. if it was normal then do the math and figure out how many thousands of dollars a gpu would be right now. prices cant do that every time so stop trying to make this more than that.

I think you are ignoring the trends, let just look at AMD itself:

HD 4890 launched @ $250, it's successor the HD 5870 launched @ $380, increase of: 52%

These trends aren't new. They shift with whoever launches first and the prices of the current leader card. When the HD 5870 launched, the GTX 285 was going for $350+.

Go back and look at the trends, they are there written in history. Now if we argue going prices, it's even worse since by the launched of the HD 5870, the HD 4890 was found for ~$200 or less, making the market up closer to 100%.

The markets will respond, and the cards will scale back down, of course, unless price fixing is an issue.

 

[railven]

Okay, you're talking OC and specific scenarios. I'm talking about stock and average (if you're not CPU bound of course). You can always find scenarios where a new card excels. Like Fermi and the fixed 8xMSAA or HD6000/7000 and the fixed tessellation. I don't want to limit myself to these cases, I want great performance everywhere out of the box.
What if your 7970 doesn't go past 1100? Do you return it? What if it becomes unbearably loud under load and you have to install a 3rd party cooler, loosing warranty? As I said - OC is no substitute for a genuine faster card. Some people may not mind these things but in general it's not a valid argument.

But, you argued value - which is subjective, and I gave you how I'd measure value in a card. Even if I got a HD 7970 and it ended at 1100mhz, that's still faster than my current card and faster than the GTX 580 which would be my other alternative. I'm specifically looking into the card I choose because temperature and power consumption are also metrics I use for value. Fermi had great performance, but it's power consumption and heat ruined that. I found no value in those cards, Fermi Respin - hell yeah, but by window to buy was closed. I personally found no value in HD 6k series. And if I were in my old habits of buying yearly, I'd have bought a second HD 5870 for possibly even a GTX 580.

I'd wager money here no one buys cards based on stock settings with stock coolers. At least not the great portion of posters here. We don't represent J6P, so why would you use J6P arguments against us?

 

[railven]

Meh other cards may have been priced higher in the past, and sure I think GTX580 is currently too expensive, but seriously the 7970 price is far too high imo, at least for the performance they offer over previous gen on a new node and arc. They didnt even bring new features to the table to bring them up to par, except Transparency AA & SSAA which I think is a great move by AMD, kudos.

Improved idle power consumption, improved tessellation, improved B/W over HDMI, individual audio output through specific display outputs (come on that alone is effin cool), new idle functions for CFX users - yet it brings nothing new to the table?

Whether you value any of those is irrelevant to your flawed argument.

 

[toyota]

I think you are ignoring the trends, let just look at AMD itself:

HD 4890 launched @ $250, it's successor the HD 5870 launched @ $380, increase of: 52%

These trends aren't new. They shift with whoever launches first and the prices of the current leader card. When the HD 5870 launched, the GTX 285 was going for $350+.

Go back and look at the trends, they are there written in history. Now if we argue going prices, it's even worse since by the launched of the HD 5870, the HD 4890 was found for ~$200 or less, making the market up closer to 100%.

The markets will respond, and the cards will scale back down, of course, unless price fixing is an issue.

the 4870 launched at $299 and the 5870 launched at $379. thats a 27% increase and it offered about a 75% increase in performance. the 7970 launched at $549 and the 6970 launched at $369. thats a 49% cost increase for about a 40% increase in overall performance. lol, that means not only did the 7970 not improve performance at the same price point, it actually has less performance per dollar.

other than that yes I know prices will rise and fall. in fact that was part of my point as we will hopefully get back on track in the next year or so.

 

[Arzachel]

lol, and NONE of that matters. are you people so damn thick that you cant see my simple comment for what it was? AGAIN all I basically said was the if every next card went up 50% we would be screwed. some people acted like that was normal when its not. if it was normal then do the math and figure out how many thousands of dollars a gpu would be right now. prices cant do that every time so stop trying to make this more than that.

/facepalm

It might be that people are calling bullshit on the 50% figure you have no reason to use except for being sensational, you're just too oblivious to see that.

 

[Despoiler]

Improved idle power consumption, improved tessellation, improved B/W over HDMI, individual audio output through specific display outputs (come on that alone is effin cool), new idle functions for CFX users - yet it brings nothing new to the table?

Whether you value any of those is irrelevant to your flawed argument.

Don't forget 4k res support.

 

[thilanliyan]

Would you have bought a HD5870 (roughly the same increase over the 285 as the 7970 has over the 580 now) for 550? And that card had DX11, SGSSAA and Eyefinity as new strong arguments.
Sorry, just my personal opinion.

I am likely not in the market for $500+ cards (spent CAD$600 on a 8800GTS 640 once and decided not to again) so I can't really say I would have bought a 5870 for that much...I kept my 4870 through to when I got my 6950.

However, I also wouldn't have been complaining about the price (unlike some others in here) if it did launch at $500+, the same way as I did not complain about the price when the GTX480 or GTX580 launched.

 

[boxleitnerb]

But, you argued value - which is subjective, and I gave you how I'd measure value in a card. Even if I got a HD 7970 and it ended at 1100mhz, that's still faster than my current card and faster than the GTX 580 which would be my other alternative. I'm specifically looking into the card I choose because temperature and power consumption are also metrics I use for value. Fermi had great performance, but it's power consumption and heat ruined that. I found no value in those cards, Fermi Respin - hell yeah, but by window to buy was closed. I personally found no value in HD 6k series. And if I were in my old habits of buying yearly, I'd have bought a second HD 5870 for possibly even a GTX 580.

I'd wager money here no one buys cards based on stock settings with stock coolers. At least not the great portion of posters here. We don't represent J6P, so why would you use J6P arguments against us?

I guess you're right about the subjective thing. I watercool my cards so heat and noise are a non-issue for me. But these shortcomings can be mitigated by special models which exist for both IHVs and for old and new cards alike. So I don't see why you shouldn't judge the reference cards. The other stuff will sort itself out more or less.
Price and performance are still the most important factors when buying a new graphics card. Value may include other things but I'm absolutely certain that if you asked a hundred people what they look for in a graphics card the vast majority would say it has to be fast and affordable. Maybe I'm wrong there, but I really doubt it.

 

[omeds]

Improved idle power consumption, improved tessellation, improved B/W over HDMI, individual audio output through specific display outputs (come on that alone is effin cool), new idle functions for CFX users - yet it brings nothing new to the table?

Whether you value any of those is irrelevant to your flawed argument.

Ok you're right, what I should have said is features that effect gameplay and IQ. I will concede better tessleation performance though.

 

[toyota]

/facepalm

It might be that people are calling bullshit on the 50% figure you have no reason to use except for being sensational, you're just too oblivious to see that.

you can do simple math, right? $550 is 50% more than $370 last time I checked. bottom line is the 7970 costs 50% more than the 6970 so how in the hell is that being sensational by me stating "50%"?

 

[IAteYourMother]

$650 and $800 were ridiculous, too. The 580 is too expensive as well, as it is no longer the fastest part. However, it is probably EOL and no new chips are sold to the AIBs. It is their obligation now to lower the prices if the cards are not selling.

Personally I would never pay $550 for a nextgen card that only surpasses the GTX580 by ca. 30%. Do 60% and you have my money. I don't care if it is Nvidia, AMD, Matrox or Santa Clause - in my opinion this card is not good value, even for the fastest part that always had a premium. Would you have bought a HD5870 (roughly the same increase over the 285 as the 7970 has over the 580 now) for 550? And that card had DX11, SGSSAA and Eyefinity as new strong arguments.
Sorry, just my personal opinion.

Of course it's not good value... it's the fastest/best part on the market. But they still shouldn't lower their prices until enough people feel the same way as you do.

 

[railven]

the 4870 launched at $299 and the 5870 launched at $379. thats a 27% increase and it offered about an 75% in performance. the 7970 launched at $550 and the 6970 launched at 369. thats a 50% in cost increase for 40% increase in performance. lol, that means not only did the 7970 not improve performance at the same price point, it actually has less performance per dollar.

other than that yes I know prices will rise and fall. in fact that was part of my point as we will hopefully get back on track in the next year or so.

Why are you comparing it to the HD 4870? The HD 4980 was the top AMD single GPU card at the time of launch for HD 5870.

If you want to play that game:
HD 5870 launched at $380, versus HD 7970 $550 == 45% increase
Performance HD 7970 is about 60% faster.

The HD 7970 doesn't have more performance per dollar? It's a HALO card. I didn't know top end cards are suppose to have that as a requirement. Well shit, no top tier card had great Perfollar since the GT 8800. It's all been downhill since then for top tier cards.

The HD 6970 wasn't a halo card, it didn't launch first, and it was priced to compete with the market. Same with the HD 4980. HD 5870/HD 7970 launched first and were priced to compete with the market.

But, If IF IFFFFFF, I get it, and if the world ended tomorrow, your argument is still moot.

 

[railven]

Don't forget 4k res support.

Sort if included that in improved HDMI. If I ever hit the lotto, I know were a cool 30grand is going. Haha.

Ok you're right, what I should have said is features that effect gameplay and IQ. I will concede better tessleation performance though.

Oh, gotcha. Goal posts moved. Carry on.

 

[Arzachel]

well the 7970 costs 50% more than the 6970 so how in the hell is that being sensational by me stating "50%"?

For the same reasons which you said don't matter: 6970 was never the fastest single chip GPU at any point and that the 7950 would be a far closer comparison, what with both being the second in line(about tied with the GTX570 in the case of 6970).

 

[SirPauly]

IF is a far stretch from challenging someone's position based on trends. This isn't the first time a card jumped up by a stupid value (remember that $800 card a while back, well it's competitor at the time was about ~$450, that's almost 100% increase.)

Until the markets support such an argument, I will bat it down the moment I see it. And, I'm not trying to harsh on you, it's just so overused it gets annoying.

At least you offer a stupid value. A 50 percent MSRP jump is an eye-opener and to have a MSRP percentage gain actually higher than the over-all performance percentage gain is kinda aggressive and extreme considering AMD themselves were banging that sweet spot strategy and performance redefined for many, many years.

 

[railven]

At least you offer a stupid value. A 50 percent MSRP jump is an eye-opener and to have a MSRP percentage gain actually higher than the over-all performance percentage gain is kinda aggressive and extreme considering AMD themselves were banging that sweet spot strategy and performance redefined for many, many years.

I'm a consumer, not a stock holder - any increased percentage is a stupid value to me. I want to see prices go down, not up, but when they go up I don't sit at the gas pump and cry that my dollar isn't going as far.

You guys ignore the whole functioning world when you sit here and drum up all this drama about a price increase, which isn't even a new trend, and then act coy because you think you're making a point?

I didn't realize this until earlier, but hey - HD 4890 to HD 5870 was a 52% price increase. Were you screaming about Go Premiums back then?

Oh yeah,

Go Premiums!

 

[railven]

For the same reasons which you said don't matter: 6970 was never the fastest single chip GPU at any point and that the 7950 would be a far closer comparison, what with both being the second in line(about tied with the GTX570 in the case of 6970).

Price that out for him:
$370 versus $450 == 22% increase in cost, and it is about 25% faster.

Interesting...Blinders for everyone!