Thank you very much. Indy thinks what makes a guy a great qb is he throws for 300 yards a game. Its not even close. Indy quite frankly spends to much time playing fantasy football.
Thank you very much. Indy thinks what makes a guy a great qb is he throws for 300 yards a game. Its not even close. Indy quite frankly spends to much time playing fantasy football.
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
- 33,655
- 688
- 126
What makes him great? I've asked and have not gotten an answer. Since it appears we both agree his stats aren't indicative of greatness, what has he done?
OILFIELDTRASH
Lifer
- May 13, 2009
- 12,333
- 612
- 126
Seriously? Troy never had the Big td or passing yard numbers because he didn't have to. He had one of the best offensive lines ever and one of the best running backs of all time. He'd been stupid to just pass it all the time. You also have to remember Troy Aikman was deadly accurate passing the ball. You rarely ever seen Troy throw a bad ball. 99% of the time when he threw the ball it would be on the money and with the receiver in full stride. Troy Aikman is in the hof not because of the gaudy numbers but because when it was crunch time he was money. Troy Aikman was always cool and collected when the pressure was on. It wasn't a case of Emmitt carrying the team or vice versa. Neither Irvin, Aikman, or Emmitt would have been as successful without each other and they will admit that. If I was using your logic whoever QB's Minnesota should be winning superbowls because of Adrian Peterson.
That doesn't make any sense at all. The Phillies success doesn't have a thing in the world to do with the Eagles. Philly is a football town. They love the Phils, but that city lives and breathes the Eagles.
And coming from Lurie and Banner sounds even more ridiculous. They gave Kevin Kolb 12 million guaranteed. Do you think they would do that then, say start Vick? Knowing Lurie over the years, he would defer to Reid. The Eagles head guys have no history in meddling with how Reid runs the team. Don't see why they all of sudden would now.
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x2
Props to Indy for attempting to have a rational conversation with him, though at some point you have to stop beating your head into the wall.
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
- 33,655
- 688
- 126
Mike Vick's win percentage is 57%.
Johnny Unitas' win percentage is 63%.
John Elway's win percentage is 64%.
Donovan McNabb's win percentage is 65%.
Vince Young's win percentage is 67%.
Peyton Manning's win percentage is 68%.
Terry Bradshaw's win percentage is 68%.
If you want to argue that "I want a QB who can run, win, and who cares how he passes!!," you take Vince Young or McNabb off that list.
Johnny Unitas' win percentage is 63%.
John Elway's win percentage is 64%.
Donovan McNabb's win percentage is 65%.
Vince Young's win percentage is 67%.
Peyton Manning's win percentage is 68%.
Terry Bradshaw's win percentage is 68%.
If you want to argue that "I want a QB who can run, win, and who cares how he passes!!," you take Vince Young or McNabb off that list.
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PClark99
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2000
- 3,833
- 74
- 91
Hey, I am only repeating what was said on the radio. Eagles get jealous of the attention paid to the phils.
Regardless of how well Vick played, Reid said multiple times Kolb was his boy.
To switch up now is a douche move by Reid, if he really is the one pulling the trigger.
LOL
Like I said be a man.
The rating thing looked stupid after I posted QB ratings of other great qbs, now its winning percentage. Whats next, the color of the uniforms? You don't like the guy because of what he did. And thats cool, to each his own. All I know is for all your bs, his talents are undeniable and they have been on full display here the last two weeks.
He is the 4th highest rated passer and 13th in rushing. Name one better right now?
Homerboy
Lifer
- Mar 1, 2000
- 30,890
- 5,001
- 126
2 games does not an elite QB make.
If you're judging his "eliteness" off of 2 games, your arguement just went entirely out the window (not that it was on firm gorund to start with).
And please, STOP implying (or straight out saying) that IndyColtsFan has an "off the field problem" with Vick. he has never said or insinuated such a thing.
The guy is a 3 time pro bowl qb and former mvp candidate. Just stop with petty bs.
I never mentioned that he didn't deserve to be in the HOF. But not first ballot HOF. Because his teams were so stacked he was never asked to carry the team.
Like I said in another post overrated != bad. Aikman was a good QB. But I only made the handing off the Emmitt analogy because his situation made it easy for him. He rarely had to play from behind and his SB victories were all blowouts.
Homerboy
Lifer
- Mar 1, 2000
- 30,890
- 5,001
- 126
Nobody, not a SINGLE PERSON here said or argued the fact that he is not talented, nor that he doesn;t have the potential to become "elite". He;s good. No question. But he needs to learn QUARTERBACKing. The scary thing is that he seems to be doing so (which Indy agreed with). If he learns his position, which he most certainly can under Reid, then he has the potential to be one of the greats.
But to put him in the "elite" catagory with guys like Manning, Brady, Brees etc is just insane. They have pro-bowl appearences too (stupid "stat"), MULTIPLE SB Rings, MULTIPLE MVP Awards (not just candidtes).
NOBODY is discrediting Vick. They are discrediting YOU for putting him on a pedestal prematurly. NOBODY with ANY knowledge or in the profession of Pro Football would put Vick in an Elite catagory as we speak.
I'll tell you want, necro this thread in November and we can check stats and standings then.
BoomerD
No Lifer
- Feb 26, 2006
- 66,322
- 14,725
- 146
It sounds like all of Philly isn't quite as in love with Vick as some of the posters here...
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/sh...aper-s-controversial-Vick-head?urn=nfl-271545
"In case you didn't remember that new Philadelphia Eagles starting quarterback Michael Vick(notes) was once imprisoned for running a dogfighting ring, the city's tabloid newspaper would like to remind you. Here's the front page of Wednesday's edition of the Philadelphia Daily News:
Subtle. I guess "PUPPY ELECTROCUTOR NAMED STARTING QUARTERBACK" wouldn't fit.
(Although note the not-at-all-accidental use of the word "shocking" in the subhead.)
If you think this is a low blow, you're right. If you think it's out of bounds, I'll respectfully disagree. Vick paid his debt to society and has been a model of behavior since getting released from prison. I'm happy for him and actually find myself rooting for him to redeem himself on the football field. But just because Vick served some time in prison doesn't mean we can't bring up his past. Prison doesn't wipe the slate clean. We shouldn't define Vick for his callous treatment of animals, but we shouldn't forget about it either.
And lest we forget that the Philadelphia Daily News is a tabloid newspaper. Provocative headlines are what tabloids do. They thrive on newsstand sales of papers and drawing readers into their websites with headlines like this. It clearly works, because even those appalled by the headline are talking about it today.
This isn't the first time the Daily News has made reference to Vick's criminal past in headline form. Here's a picture of the front page from Aug. 14, 2009, the day after Vick signed with the Eagles:
It's anyone's guess how the paper will cover Vick's stint as the team's quarterback, but I expect that the paper's design editors have already made the template for the "PUT DOWN" headline whenever Vick should be benched, cut or traded."
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/sh...aper-s-controversial-Vick-head?urn=nfl-271545
"In case you didn't remember that new Philadelphia Eagles starting quarterback Michael Vick(notes) was once imprisoned for running a dogfighting ring, the city's tabloid newspaper would like to remind you. Here's the front page of Wednesday's edition of the Philadelphia Daily News:
Subtle. I guess "PUPPY ELECTROCUTOR NAMED STARTING QUARTERBACK" wouldn't fit.
(Although note the not-at-all-accidental use of the word "shocking" in the subhead.)
If you think this is a low blow, you're right. If you think it's out of bounds, I'll respectfully disagree. Vick paid his debt to society and has been a model of behavior since getting released from prison. I'm happy for him and actually find myself rooting for him to redeem himself on the football field. But just because Vick served some time in prison doesn't mean we can't bring up his past. Prison doesn't wipe the slate clean. We shouldn't define Vick for his callous treatment of animals, but we shouldn't forget about it either.
And lest we forget that the Philadelphia Daily News is a tabloid newspaper. Provocative headlines are what tabloids do. They thrive on newsstand sales of papers and drawing readers into their websites with headlines like this. It clearly works, because even those appalled by the headline are talking about it today.
This isn't the first time the Daily News has made reference to Vick's criminal past in headline form. Here's a picture of the front page from Aug. 14, 2009, the day after Vick signed with the Eagles:
It's anyone's guess how the paper will cover Vick's stint as the team's quarterback, but I expect that the paper's design editors have already made the template for the "PUT DOWN" headline whenever Vick should be benched, cut or traded."
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
- 33,655
- 688
- 126
LOL, you've been badly owned and can't admit it. YOU be a man instead of insinuating race issues, issues with character, etc. I've never said that had anything to do with it and until you can post a quote from me saying that "I hate Vick because of his crime," STFU and discuss the issue.
God, you are dense. How MANY DAMN TIMES do I have to say this? I will say it -- AGAIN -- since you are so obtuse you can't get it. Or perhaps you do get it, but ignore it. I think that's more likely.
I listed 3 categories:
1. Stats
2. SB appearances
3. Records
I have said that in ALL THREE, Vick falls short. Do you understand now? I am NOT relying on stats. I am taking a big picture look and giving you 3 options to defend him and YOU CAN'T.
Look, I even added another category -- winning percentage! Unfortunately, I can't take credit though. I brought up winning percentage for one reason alone. Want to guess what that reason was? If you said "Because I or someone else in this thread said 'Vick knows how to win,'" you'd be correct! I just proved, using numbers that don't lie, that Vick's "knowing how to win" doesn't compare with the greats you disparaged earlier and not even with Vince Young.
Post proof or else, STFU. Again, I have DEFENDED him in this thread. What you're doing is 1) making stuff up and 2) lying. You've just been embarrassed, you know it, and now you're trying to save face.
Please post where I said Vick doesn't have talent. If you can't, STFU. On the other hand, I can post multiple instances of me saying he has ENORMOUS talent. Would you like me to post those for your continued embarrassment? I'd be happy to, while I'll be waiting (in vain) for you to post a quote where I said "Vick has no talent."
Great! That is not the discussion though. Try to keep up here. As I have mentioned -- NUMEROUS TIMES -- we are discussing pre-Philly. I have stated -- again, NUMEROUS TIMES -- that he is doing extremely well right now. A great QB is a consistent QB, so while Vick may have an awesome year, let's see a few more. Would you care for me to list a few QBs who had an awesome year or two and then faded into oblivion?
And by the way, you just contradicted yourself with the quote above as you said there were 6, and as many as 12, QBs who were better than Vick TODAY. So no, I don't have to name any better ones now; you listed 6 you said were definitely better. Self ownage for the win.
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 111,866
- 31,364
- 146
Mike Tice, Romeo Crennel, Wade Phillips(lol) Charlie Wiese(lol)...
I love this assumption that great coordinators always make great head coaches, when most of the data shows otherwise--maybe 15-20% have real sustained success.
Bellichick, Reid, and maybe Gruden are maybe the best recent examples of successful head coaches. (I don't know much about the seasons leading up to Gruden with the Raiders, but it can be argued that he was lead by Dungy's defense in TB....but it was certainly Gruden's own Raiders that he coached against in the SB the next season.)
Sure, most...if not all head coaches come from the coordinating pool, but the assumption that all of those will be successful as head coaches if they were successful in a great team of coaches flies against what we actually know.
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
- 33,655
- 688
- 126
Thank you. I don't. I was always a Vick fan and have 2 of his jerseys in my closet to this day. Classy is making these insinuations because he has no factual basis for his claims and keeps:
1. Confusing the issue -- we're discussing the Atlanta days since that is Vick's largest body of work but Classy keeps bringing up this year. As I've said, repeatedly, Vick is awesome so far but the year is young so it would be unfair to judge his performance based on 2 games.
2. Confusing the various arguments. He keeps trying to say "You said he had no stats and that is dumb to judge him on stats!" That is untrue. I have said:
a. Vick has no stats to back your claims up
b. Vick has no championships to back your claims up
c. Vick has no passing records to back your claims up
d. And now thanks to Homer, another -- Vick has no MVP to back that up
e. Someone (too lazy to search, but it might have been Classy) made the comment "Vick just knows how to win." I compared his career winning percentage to other QBs, many of whom Classy claims Vick is statistically equivalent to, and proved that "No, compared to those guys, Vick doesn't know how to win." And true to Classy form, he claims that I am trying to shift my focus to another argument. Why would I "shift my focus" when I have been right on every single category above and have just provided even more evidence?
Stats are just one component of my argument.
3. Clearly has no knowledge of football history. The comical comments about Brady, Belichick, and Unitas' completion percentage are comedy gold.
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James Bond
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2005
- 6,023
- 0
- 0
Wow... major ownage happening.
Classy, either post something with merit or leave the thread. This is hard to watch.
Classy, either post something with merit or leave the thread. This is hard to watch.
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
- 33,655
- 688
- 126
Jim Hart made the Pro Bowl four times. Brad Johnson made it twice. Are we to conclude that Mike Vick is between those two? Stop using the Pro Bowl argument, as it does NOT help you.
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 111,866
- 31,364
- 146
wow.
you really are incapable of understanding IndyColt's argument, aren't you?
please don't tell me you assume the anti-Vick crowd is making arguments in the "ant-black QB" tradition? That is certainly not the case.
You can't argue numbers. They are there for everyone to see, and that is exactly what people are talking about. His athleticism and raw talent have never been in question. Why do you keep making that argument, just as everyone else agrees with you, yet claim that we don't?
Well now lets clarify, did I say he was great or elite? No. I took exception with Indys comment he was mediocre. 6 I listed as elite above him and listed another 6 that are very good and placed him in that group. Vick is a good, really good qb right now. He has shown he can win in the past and has shown his skills have not not diminshed at all. Indy is a complete moron if he thinks Vick is mediocre. Thats my argument.
No matter how good or bad he may really be, no matter when, how, or why Reid named him the permament starter, he is the best QB in Philly. To see people argue against Vick in favor of Kolb is so dumb its sad. Reid is a good coach and I am sure he realized that he now has maybe the most talent laden qb in the league. No question after watching him the last two weeks he wants the chance to further develop those skills. I never stated he was elite, but he damn sure is not mediocre.
Hey great debate, like it a lot. I gotta hit the weights now
.
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 111,866
- 31,364
- 146
Classy has been mistaking personal assumption and prejudice for reality throughout this thread.
He truly believes that Andy Reid is the all-powerful despot of the organization, therefore only Reid could have made such a decision--and on his own. it matters not that the public statements and posturing over the entire week completely conflict with such an assumption.
Vick may not have the typical QB stats but he is third all time in rushing yds by a QB behind only Randall Cunningham and Steve Young. And he's reached the 4000 yd plateau in half as many seasons. He's also the only QB to rush for 1000 yds in a season.
But unless he translates those to more wins hes not HOF bound.
But unless he translates those to more wins hes not HOF bound.
slag
Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 10,473
- 81
- 101
What a douche-bag reply. The guy has already paid for his crimes as laid out by the US judicial system.
Build a bridge and get over it.
Since Vick's stats this season seem to give some people here a chubby, I'll just reiterate that over the 1.5 games that Vick has amassed his 4th highest QB rating, 1 full game was played against Detroit; a team that can make virtually any QB look elite.
See Brady Quinn
Or Jason Campbell
Or the average rating for all 2009 opponents
See Brady Quinn
Or Jason Campbell
Or the average rating for all 2009 opponents
Homerboy
Lifer
- Mar 1, 2000
- 30,890
- 5,001
- 126
Well now lets clarify, did I say he was great or elite? No. I took exception with Indys comment he was mediocre. 6 I listed as elite above him and listed another 6 that are very good and placed him in that group. Vick is a good, really good qb right now. He has shown he can win in the past and has shown his skills have not not diminshed at all. Indy is a complete moron if he thinks Vick is mediocre. Thats my argument.
No matter how good or bad he may really be, no matter when, how, or why Reid named him the permament starter, he is the best QB in Philly. To see people argue against Vick in favor of Kolb is so dumb its sad. Reid is a good coach and I am sure he realized that he now has maybe the most talent laden qb in the league. No question after watching him the last two weeks he wants the chance to further develop those skills. I never stated he was elite, but he damn sure is not mediocre.
Hey great debate, like it a lot. I gotta hit the weights now
I'll still contend that by the end of the season the numbers and records will show he will be a mediocre QB (but still an exceptional/elite athlete)
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