Vick Officially Named Starting QB

[mvbighead]

For sure it doesn't, but I am waiting for someone to tell me by what objective measure is he great? I'm not discussing his physical abilities any longer as I have said that a) He has a top 3 arm and b) He is an awesome runner.

I know he can run. Everyone does. And while that is a great asset, you guys are forgetting that Vick running was actually a knock against him at one point; coaches felt he was too eager to pack it in and run with it.

Great passing is an essential component of a great QB. If your argument is that Vick is an awesome runner and only a fair passer, then what you're saying is, in effect, that he makes an awesome Wildcat QB. Ok, fine, I'll grant that.

That's just it... the wild cat is a thing of this year, and recent years (past few). Problem is, you keep discounting the one factor that gives Vick some source of an elite edge... his athleticism. That is simply all there is to it. If he is a decent passer (which he is, according to your (or someone else's) comparison of him being just below the middle half of this league (16/17), and has the phenomenal running characteristics that he does, it makes for one hell of a game changer. The Atlanta franchise wouldn't have given a mediocre player a 100 million dollar contract.

Who gives a flop about what some other coaches think? Vick's ability to run set him apart from numerous other players. He may have been eager to pull it down and run, but that's no different than saying so and so is too eager to take the check down pass.

As to your SB argument as justification, I have just two names... Trent Dilfer and Dan Marino. One cannot argue that Marino was a worse QB than Dilfer, despite never winning a SB. In addition, the team I follow just so happens to be the same team that you apparently follow. I know, for a fact, that Peyton Manning would not have a SB ring if it weren't for the resurgence of the Indy defense in the playoffs of 2006. That's the plain and simple truth of it. They shutdown the league's best rusher that season in Larry Johnson, and went on to have performance after performance all the way to and through the SB. In addition, they would not have been in the SB had it not been for the leg of Adam Vinatieri against Baltimore. The league's most prolific offense couldn't muster 1 TD, but they managed to get 5 FGs because of AV.

As to wins, as far as I knew, teams won games on Sundays (and Mondays, and Thursdays). If it was just the QB's responsibility, you wouldn't see 53 man rosters. I've seen the Indy defense cost the Colts numerous wins, including one against the Texans in the season opener where they allowed 200+ rushing yards to one player. And a loss despite the fact that Manning threw for 433 yards, 3TDs, 0 INTs, 70.2% completion percentage, and a 109.8 passer rating. Should that loss be on Manning's shoulders? I definitely don't think so. I also don't think he deserves credit for a playoff win against the Chiefs when he threw 3 interceptions.

So, IMO, Wins and SBs are not some magical indicator of a good QB. Neither is passer rating. What's left? Well, what you see on the field, most obviously. The man hasn't been the most accurate QB in the league, but simply being around average and having the physical skillset that he does makes him much more than mediocre. Perhaps elite isn't the right category either. But you cannot argue that he is a special talent. It's a shame the talent went to such a shitty person.

 

[Homerboy]

Since Vick's stats this season seem to give some people here a chubby, I'll just reiterate that over the 1.5 games that Vick has amassed his 4th highest QB rating, 1 full game was played against Detroit; a team that can make virtually any QB look elite.

See Brady Quinn

Or Jason Campbell

Or the average rating for all 2009 opponents

I didn't even want to bring up "it was the Lions" debate. Classy was having a hard enough time already. The other .5 game was against a somewhat depleted GB defense that didn't even prepare at all for a "Mike Vick" type game. (hey I gotta defend the Green and Gold somewhat).

 

[Turin39789]

Thread marked for end of season review.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

-- snip --

But what you're missing is that I am not relying on any single piece of evidence (only stats, for example) for my argument; I am looking at lots of pieces of data to support my view. You can't have people saying Vick is a great QB when there are few, if any, data points supporting that argument.

You can't say "Vick is great because they made it to the NFC Championship one year!" and then turn around and say "Hey you can't use Super Bowl appearances as a factor. Remember Dan Marino?!?!" (BTW, Marino is a very poor analogy because while he doesn't have a Super Bowl win, he 1) did play in one 2) has stats to back up his claim to greatness 3) has records backing up his greatness). Dilfer is an aberration.

You can't say "Vick just knows how to win!" but when shown that his winning percentage is actually lower than many other QBs, back up and say "But...but...it is a team sport!" Of course it is a team sport, so why claim that "Vick knows how to win!" in the first place?

Also, the contract argument is silly. Atlanta was foolish with that contract. Why don't you ask Washington what they think of Albert Haynesworth about now?

So, IMO, Wins and SBs are not some magical indicator of a good QB. Neither is passer rating. What's left? Well, what you see on the field, most obviously.

In other words, a highlight reel. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

 

[Perknose]

Thread marked for end of season review.

Well, yeah, this is the thing. We're all going to get to see just how much of a mirage Vick's stellar but short duration performance this year is. He certainly has looked good to me, and I'm talking strictly about his passing touch!

Ah'm esscited! <burp>

Personally, I think finding out what Vick's got left and if his prison time somehow so focused him that he now is willing (and able) to make the transition to a standard, pass-first NFL QB to be something I look forward to!

It's got to be a more pleasant and engrossing prospect than watching Kevin Kolb get a season and possibly career ending concussion on his seventh sack in the 3rd quarter of Sunday's game after going 2 for 11 for 27 yds in the first half -- while running for his life as the Jags coming steaming through that porous Eagle O-line!

But, hey, that's just me.

 

[mvbighead]

But what you're missing is that I am not relying on any single piece of evidence (only stats, for example) for my argument; I am looking at lots of pieces of data to support my view. You can't have people saying Vick is a great QB when there are few, if any, data points supporting that argument.

You can't say "Vick is great because they made it to the NFC Championship one year!" and then turn around and say "Hey you can't use Super Bowl appearances as a factor. Remember Dan Marino?!?!" (BTW, Marino is a very poor analogy because while he doesn't have a Super Bowl win, he 1) did play in one 2) has stats to back up his claim to greatness 3) has records backing up his greatness). Dilfer is an aberration.

You can't say "Vick just knows how to win!" but when shown that his winning percentage is actually lower than many other QBs, back up and say "But...but...it is a team sport!" Of course it is a team sport, so why claim that "Vick knows how to win!" in the first place?

Also, the contract argument is silly. Atlanta was foolish with that contract. Why don't you ask Washington what they think of Albert Haynesworth about now?



In other words, a highlight reel. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

It turned out being foolish in the end, because, as I said, he was a shitty person. But his talents on the field were deserving of a high contract... maybe not as high as he got, but high nonetheless. An Albert Haynesworth is a poor example as he was a FA acquisition who went to a team that suited his talents, and wound up being a part of a team who was switching to a 3-4 where he was not comfortable. He, also, is a shitty person as he took the 21 million dollar roster bonus and then decided to sit despite just taking the money months before training camp began.

My points to counter yours are mere examples of where the logic fails. 1, football is a team sport. There is no denying this. As I said about Manning, his team wins lots of games... but not all of their wins are directly related to how well Manning performs. Sometimes, the team wins in spite of Manning having a bad outing. His SB ring is in his possession due, in large part, to defense AND special teams. I get so sick of people who view QB greatness based on rings on a person's finger. Tom Brady is not an uberly better QB than Peyton because he has 2 more rings. His rings are, in large part, due to the efforts of Vinatieri, Bruschi, Harrison, Branch, Bellicheck, and many, many others. He certainly had a big hand in it too, but the fact that his team won 3 SBs is not an indicator of individual greatness.

And I am not saying that Vick just knows how to win. IMO, that is a bullshit argument as well. Nobody just knows how to win. Their talents put them in a position to do so. Their talents allow them to perform at a high level. Their talents contribute to the team winning a game.

As to the highlight reel... that is just a cop out, IMO. I did not say highlight reel. I said what he does on the field. Far more often than not, Vick's contributions throughout the entire game put the team in good position to win games. Much of this is due to his ability to keep the chains moving, with his defense resting on the sidelines, etc. Whether it is with his feet or his throwing makes no difference.

Look, I don't really care for the guy as a person. But I am not naive enough to consider him mediocre when the man "electrified" an entire offense and franchise for several seasons. Vick was an unquestioned starter for that team. There was talk of the dismal Falcons post-Vick, and how the franchise would sustain itself without him. Obviously, they had to move on while he was incarcerated.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

What a douche-bag reply. The guy has already paid for his crimes as laid out by the US judicial system.

Build a bridge and get over it.

Just because someone "paid for his crimes" doesn't mean people have to like the guy.

If you and I were walking down the street, and you pointed at some guy and said, "that's the dude who murdered my mother!", I'm not going to like the guy, even if he did his prison sentence.

 

[rasczak]

Whoa @ thread.

 

[thegimp03]

Just because someone "paid for his crimes" doesn't mean people have to like the guy.

If you and I were walking down the street, and you pointed at some guy and said, "that's the dude who murdered my mother!", I'm not going to like the guy, even if he did his prison sentence.

I'm pretty neutral about Vick right now. Being involved in a dog fighting ring and killing a few dogs, while despicable, can't really be put on the same level as killing a person. I'm not trying to rationalize what he did, but he did his time and I honestly hope he does well in the NFL now that he's out of prison, because he sure was exciting to watch.

 

[PClark99]

I'll still contend that by the end of the season the numbers and records will show he will be a mediocre QB (but still an exceptional/elite athlete)

I agree with that. Mediocre QB acumen, but right now as a whole, taking into account running an offense and physical ability, he is better than Kolb.

At least he can run for his life when things fall apart and maybe make some plays with his athleticism.

The receivers will work harder to get open knowing that anything can and probably will happen.

I think based on some of what I have seen Reid has drilled into his head to keep his eyes downfield and look for the receivers.

 

[sjwaste]

I can't believe this thread is still alive. Back away from it and enjoy the Phillies run. The Eagles do not deserve your attention right now.

The Eagles have a lawyer for a GM and another non-football guy as a President. Working for an owner who, mentally, has never left Boston. What they're doing right now really shouldn't matter when the entire Phillies organization is doing everything they can to field a winner - Montgomery is a Philly guy.

And if you really need a better argument, who's better, Uncle Charlie or Andy Reid? Manuel's the ultimate baseball guy and a 1000x better interview.

I've been a huge Eagles fan my entire life, but they matter a lot less this year until the Phillies are done.

 

[dbk]

McNabb has looked great this year.. I guess my opinion is diluted by the fact that I've had to watch Jason Campbell for the past couple of years.. nonetheless Skins at Eagles will be a barnburner!

 

[IndyColtsFan]

It turned out being foolish in the end, because, as I said, he was a shitty person. But his talents on the field were deserving of a high contract... maybe not as high as he got, but high nonetheless. An Albert Haynesworth is a poor example as he was a FA acquisition who went to a team that suited his talents, and wound up being a part of a team who was switching to a 3-4 where he was not comfortable. He, also, is a shitty person as he took the 21 million dollar roster bonus and then decided to sit despite just taking the money months before training camp began.

The NFL is littered with people taking huge contracts and not performing up to the standards of the contract. For the money Vick got, he didn't perform.

My points to counter yours are mere examples of where the logic fails. 1, football is a team sport.

Again, I never denied that. Classy was the one that brought up the "Vick knows how to win" game, so if he brings it up and credits their wins to Vick, bringing up QB win percentage is fair game. You can't saying "Vick knows how to win" when it supports your argument and then when you compare straight win percentages against a few past and present All Pro QBs, back up and say "But....but....it is a team sport!"

And I am not saying that Vick just knows how to win.

See above. I never said you specifically did (it was Classy); I was using "you" in a generic sense.

As to the highlight reel... that is just a cop out, IMO. I did not say highlight reel.

You didn't, but saying it is about "how he plays on the field" when his stats are average at best, he holds no passing records, has been to no championships, hasn't won any league MVP awards, and doesn't have a sky-high win percentage rings a bit hollow. What has his play on the field brought him, exactly? Even using the football is a team sport argument (which is valid), then why don't we see better measurable, individual stats from Vick? He is a QB, after all, and his QB stats are average. Which is what we've been saying.

And before you say "His team wasn't good" or something like that, they were a playoff team and did make the NFC Championship once. Vick did not do that himself and if anyone on the forums wants to claim he did, then we have more to discuss.

Look, I don't really care for the guy as a person. But I am not naive enough to consider him mediocre when the man "electrified" an entire offense and franchise for several seasons.

He did, but while he is definitely an exciting player, you can't put him in an elite class of QBs. The elite class of QB in today's game would be:

Manning
Brees
Brady
Rodgers

and if you want to stretch it, maybe include Schaub and possibly Palmer in the mix, though I tend to think both are right on the edge -- Schaub climbing into the elite category while Palmer has been on the verge for years but can't quite seem to crack it.

Vick was an unquestioned starter for that team. There was talk of the dismal Falcons post-Vick, and how the franchise would sustain itself without him. Obviously, they had to move on while he was incarcerated.

He was unquestioned because they had no backups on the team capable of being a starting QB. Doug Johnson? LOL, he was a hot commodity that fizzled. Matt Schaub? Definitely starting QB material and definitely a better QB than Vick and the Falcons probably wished they would've kept him once the dog fighting stuff surfaced.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I'll still contend that by the end of the season the numbers and records will show he will be a mediocre QB (but still an exceptional/elite athlete)

The numbers and records have shown that in the past and yet, these guys still cling to the belief that he is "elite." Or at least that is what they seem to be claiming; at first I was told 6 QBs were definitely better than Vick and possibly 6 more; than the argument shifts to "Show me anyone who is better!" I don't even know what their position is now!

 

[vi edit]

McNabb has looked great this year.. I guess my opinion is diluted by the fact that I've had to watch Jason Campbell for the past couple of years.. nonetheless Skins at Eagles will be a barnburner!

I watched the Cowboys game and he looked a lot thinner than previous years, still has a set of wheels on him (for a QB and a guy his size) and his passes looked like they still had a lot of zip and accuracy to them. He really looked rejuvinated IMHO. Especially considering he was still coming off an ankle injury from the preseason.

 

[BrokenVisage]

The elite class of QB in today's game would be:

Manning
Brees
Brady
Rodgers

and if you want to stretch it, maybe include Schaub and possibly Palmer in the mix, though I tend to think both are right on the edge -- Schaub climbing into the elite category while Palmer has been on the verge for years but can't quite seem to crack it.

No Rivers? No Roethlisberger? Shit, I'd still take Rothleisberger over Brees who has only shown me 2 maybe 3 good years and 1 good playoff run (not sure why people are already putting him in the HOF already, just because you help bring a sorry franchise a SB doesn't put your name anywhere near a ballot). Rodgers should not be in the elite discussion (yet) either. The elites up through last year were Manning, Brady, Rothleisberger, Favre, and Warner. 1 is gone, and another has his foot (ankle) out the door. Brees and especially Rodgers need to show me more in the playoffs, until then, they're only elite "fantasy" QBs.

 

[bignateyk]

I can't believe this thread is still alive. Back away from it and enjoy the Phillies run. The Eagles do not deserve your attention right now.

The Eagles have a lawyer for a GM and another non-football guy as a President. Working for an owner who, mentally, has never left Boston. What they're doing right now really shouldn't matter when the entire Phillies organization is doing everything they can to field a winner - Montgomery is a Philly guy.

And if you really need a better argument, who's better, Uncle Charlie or Andy Reid? Manuel's the ultimate baseball guy and a 1000x better interview.

I've been a huge Eagles fan my entire life, but they matter a lot less this year until the Phillies are done.

The only flaw in your logic is that the Phillies are a baseball team, and baseball sucks.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

No Rivers? No Roethlisberger? Shit, I'd still take Rothleisberger over Brees who has only shown me 2 maybe 3 good years and 1 good playoff run (not sure why people are already putting him in the HOF already, just because you help bring a sorry franchise a SB doesn't put your name anywhere near a ballot). Rodgers should not be in the elite discussion (yet) either. The elites up through last year were Manning, Brady, Rothleisberger, Favre, and Warner. 1 is gone, and another has his foot (ankle) out the door. Brees and especially Rodgers need to show me more in the playoffs, until then, they're only elite "fantasy" QBs.

I wouldn't put Roethlisberger there. Beyond the stats, championships, etc, I guess I think of elite QBs this way: If you put them on a team with decent receivers, sub-par defense and a lackluster run game, could they still win the majority of their games? Or using these same conditions and playing them against a similar team with another elite-class QB, could they win?

Manning, Brees, Brady? Yes. And you're right, Favre and Warner would probably fit this scenario too, though with respect to Favre, last year was the first year he has looked really good in a number of years. All have the stats to back up their candidacy in this elite class, and all except Rodgers have at least 1 title.

Rodgers? Ok, maybe I am a litle iffy on him after thinking about it more, but I think I'd still take him over Rivers or Big Ben.

Rivers? Maybe he could, but I am a little skeptical. I'd take him over Ben though given the constraints above.

Roethlisberger? No way.

 

[Homerboy]

I wouldn't put Roethlisberger there. Beyond the stats, championships, etc, I guess I think of elite QBs this way: If you put them on a team with decent receivers, sub-par defense and a lackluster run game, could they still win the majority of their games? Or using these same conditions and playing them against a similar team with another elite-class QB, could they win?

Manning, Brees, Brady? Yes. And you're right, Favre and Warner would probably fit this scenario too, though with respect to Favre, last year was the first year he has looked really good in a number of years. All have the stats to back up their candidacy in this elite class, and all except Rodgers have at least 1 title.

Rodgers? Ok, maybe I am a litle iffy on him after thinking about it more, but I think I'd still take him over Rivers or Big Ben.

Rivers? Maybe he could, but I am a little skeptical. I'd take him over Ben though given the constraints above.

Roethlisberger? No way.

Why don't you just admit that you have a bias against Big Ben due to his off the field personality? This should have no bearing on how you feel about him as a quarterback!!!!!!111111one!!!

/stupidity

 

[IndyColtsFan]

why don't you just admit that you have a bias against big ben due to his off the field personality? This should have no bearing on how you feel about him as a quarterback!!!!!!111111one!!!

/stupidity

lol.

 

[bignateyk]

lol.

He's got a point. Ignoring the fact that the guy is probably a rapist, you can't deny that he is one of the best QB's in the league over the last 5+ years.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

He's got a point. Ignoring the fact that the guy is probably a rapist, you can't deny that he is one of the best QB's in the league over the last 5+ years.

Big Ben IS a good QB by all measures and a tick below the elite class IMO. I just don't think he is the kind of QB that could carry a team by himself. He can for a game or two, sure, but I don't think he could do it consistently. I think that is what separates him from Manning. I don't think Big Ben is the kind of guy who can throw for 4,000 and 35 TDs year in, year out and make the playoffs with a sub-par running game and bad defense. Manning can and has proven it repeatedly. Brees and Brady haven't had to do that but I suspect they could.

 

[sjwaste]

The only flaw in your logic is that the Phillies are a baseball team, and baseball sucks.

Your opinion on baseball will matter when your team isn't the Bucs, or when they get demoted to AAA.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Why don't you just admit that you have a bias against Big Ben due to his off the field personality? This should have no bearing on how you feel about him as a quarterback!!!!!!111111one!!!

/stupidity

Hey, I forgot, didn't Rivers flip some fans off? Maybe I am biased against him too!!1!!!11!!!!111!!!!

 

[bignateyk]

Big Ben IS a good QB by all measures and a tick below the elite class IMO. I just don't think he is the kind of QB that could carry a team by himself. He can for a game or two, sure, but I don't think he could do it consistently. I think that is what separates him from Manning. I don't think Big Ben is the kind of guy who can throw for 4,000 and 35 TDs year in, year out and make the playoffs with a sub-par running game and bad defense. Manning can and has proven it repeatedly. Brees and Brady haven't had to do that but I suspect they could.

You mean like last year when he threw for 4300 yards, 26 TD, 12INT, all while getting sacked 50 times behind a shitty offensive line with a poor running game?

The only thing holding him back early in his career was coaching. Every year he throws the ball more and more.

Big Ben was about the only thing good about the steelers last year. The defense blew 4th quarter leads like it was their job.