IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
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Honestly its time to move on, I can't even take you seriously now. Jim Hart? LOL
Your statements lead me to believe like most "groupie" fans you judge a guy's on the field talent based on his character. I just don't get the whole "I gotta love him off the field" mentality to give him respect for what the guy does on the field. Your comment about Vick being medicore is about as dumb as my conversation with another simpleton when he said Pete Rose doesn't belong in the HOF. Dude made some mistakes, bad ones, but on the field Vick is a unique and dynamic talent. Period.
I guess we'll have to see what he does over a full season. Right now he is among the best in the league, in all aspects. Not bad for not starting in 4 years and being "mediocre".
LOL
I am just curious, why would you think that? This has got to be good.
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
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Because Andy Reid went out of his way to repeatedly (on several occasions) say Kolb was starting the next game. And the very next day, announced Vick was starting.
FWIW, Reid should be starting Vick and was being a stubborn fool.
I am a Giants fan, but I live in the Philly area, actually work in Philly. Not true in the least bit. There is no question Reid runs the show in Philly, period. No one dictates to Andy Reid. He is the man and no doubt he made this decision on his own.
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
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That's fine, because no one takes you seriously as evidenced in this thread and P&N.
Like it or not, Jim Hart has stats similar to Vick's in Atlanta and made the Pro Bowl more. My point being, of course, that no one in their right mind would consider Jim Hart an elite QB and yet, you seem to place Vick in the elite category when:
1. To my knowledge, he holds no major passing records.
2. Has sub-par career stats.
3. Hasn't won or been to a Super Bowl.
In case you missed it, I have repeatedly said Vick has AWESOME physical talent. However, physical talent isn't enough to be an NFL QB. You need to be smart, know how to read defenses, etc. That is where Vick is weak, in addition to his sub-par accuracy before this year. This year, he has shown huge progress so maybe under Reid's tutelage, he will be elite.
With respect to the character comment, now you're making things up. I've only defended Vick in that regard in this thread.
Uh, I never said that and in fact, have defended Vick in this thread because it is unfair to treat him one way and not treat someone like Leonard Little (who did far worse) as badly. Please learn to read and not confuse me with others who may hold Vick's crime against him.
Let me break it down for you -- again. I will spell it out CLEARLY so you can not say I didn't say it:
Vick's physical talents: other-worldly
Vick's performance as an NFL QB prior to Philly: mediocre
mediocre: of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad.
Sure, Vick has had brilliant moments and games. However, his career rating is below 77. He has only broken 80 one time prior to Philly. He has never thrown for 3000 yds or more than 20 TDs. He has never completed close to 60% of his passes until this year. His career completion percentage is 54%. These are not the numbers of an elite passer. AT ALL.
Vick's stats are mediocre. Period. He has awesome physical skills. Period. Nowhere have I discussed Vick's character, so now you're making stuff up.
Wait, you said you knew of 6 QBs who were for sure better, and another 6 you could possibly put ahead of him. That isn't among "the best" at all.
I'm pulling for him and want to see him do well and personally, I think he could do very well this year.
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
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Well that's fine, but why is he quoted in the national media as saying that Kolb was his starter and the next day, Vick is? hclark asked for our opinions and I am giving my opinion.
Sunday night: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...-vick-will-be-eagles-starting-qb-in-next-game
Article Monday: http://www.csnphilly.com/09/20/10/R...landing_eagles.html?blockID=314616&feedID=692
Another article Monday: http://www.csnphilly.com/09/20/10/R...landing_eagles.html?blockID=314616&feedID=692
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You know who is more overrated? Troy Aikman.
Only once did he pass for more that 20 td's in season and apparently he's a first ballot HOFer for handing it off to Emmitt Smith.
He's the original Mark Sanchez.
Only once did he pass for more that 20 td's in season and apparently he's a first ballot HOFer for handing it off to Emmitt Smith.
He's the original Mark Sanchez.
Dude I am just going to let it go. Your tone is all to familiar. Guys like you have been saying guys like Vick can't be a quarterback for as long as I can remember. Vick could go out and complete 60% in every game for the rest of this season and you'll just find something else.
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
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Sigh, you still don't get it and obviously haven't read what I wrote. Your behavior in this thread is typical of what I've seen in your posts in P&N -- automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with you has some sort of deep-seated, ulterior motive rather than take what they say at face value. You don't get that I like Vick as a player and want him to do well, which I have said here. Heck I think I still have a couple of Vick jerseys that I didn't trash.
Vick's QB rating thus far is 105 this season. If he ends with a QB rating in the mid-90s or higher, that is a great season and he should be applauded. However, let's let him string a few of those seasons together before we prepare his space in Canton, shall we?
What's wrong with a little friendly debate? Every QB goes through a love-hate fest throughout his career. Indy just said Vick was overrated. Last I checked overrated qb != bad qb. I think you have to be good in the first place for people to be overrating you don't you think?
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
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I liked Aikman as a QB, but to be honest, I was somewhat surprised that he made the HOF on the first ballot. I am not sure his performance merited it. It used to be that to get into the HOF as a QB, the discussion didn't start until you had at least 200 TD passes, and Troy falls well short of that.
However, since apparently some people here seem to think Pro Bowls are a barometer of a QB being great, Aikman went to 6 of them so he must be "awesome."
And back in his day, I don't believe there was a fan component to the Pro Bowl vote, though I could be mistaken.I liked Aikman as a QB, but to be honest, I was somewhat surprised that he made the HOF on the first ballot. I am not sure his performance merited it. It used to be that to get into the HOF as a QB, the discussion didn't start until you had at least 200 TD passes, and Troy falls well short of that.
However, since apparently some people here seem to think Pro Bowls are a barometer of a QB being great, Aikman went to 6 of them so he must be "awesome."
I think his SB rings carried him to Canton but still, his teams were stacked. Herschel Walker had as much of a hand in building that team but where is his bust? LOL.
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
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BTW pretty cool life some of his dogs have today
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-gorant/the-lost-dogs-michael-vick_b_716468.html?ir=Sports#s139797
awwww
--b b b b b but pit bulls are teh devils and should all be killed!
/average fool
See you are so full of bs. First of all my debating in P&N ain't got a damn thing to do with my judgements of athletes. You run out some half cocked mediocre statement, but now he has to string a few seasons together, and get to Canton. Just because a guy doesn't make Canton doesn't mean he is mediocre. Instead of trying to sound all knowledgeable, just be a man say I hate the guy for what he did.
His play earned him the richest contract in NFL history and his former coach compared him as a young player to NFL qb greats. Then you run out ratings, lol. Vick has a higher qb rating than Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, Kenny Stabler, and Jim Plunkett. Yea those 4 really sucked. Vick's qb rating is within 3 pts of this group, Simms, Griese, Everett, Theismann, Elway, and Johnny Unitas. Vick has a career 54% completetion percentage, same as Unitas. Yea thats a real mediocre group.
Vick may flop, but his talent is so good, I doubt it. He still has several years left to go. But one thing is for certain he is not mediocre and you don't know jack about football.
mvbighead
Diamond Member
- Apr 20, 2009
- 3,793
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- 81
Personally, this whole talk of other doing far worse things than Vick is extremely short-sighted. Perhaps the end result of Vick's actions were far less alarming than the others mentioned (Stallworth, Little, etc.), but the major difference between Vick and those individuals is that Vick knew full well what the end result of his actions would be: the brutal death of fighting dogs, and other dogs used to train the fighting dogs.
No drunk driver truly purposefully swerves to kill a person. They simply end up doing because of their lack of proper judgment. That is not to say their actions are fine, but there is the element of intent that is lacking their crimes. Personally, I would like to see all DUIs come with stiffer penalties, make the penalty something really worth thinking about for the idiots who do that sort of thing.
As to Vick's talents... IndyColtsFan has gone on and on about how he is mediocre. I can only agree that Vick is a mediocre pocket passer. As far as QBs go, he was most definitely in the elite category in his day, and certainly justified his 100+ million dollar contract, prior to his arrest. He's not Peyton Manning, Brees, or Brady. But his talents separate him from all QBs in the league. What a 70.5 passer rating doesn't tell you is that the man ran for 4094 yards in his 10 year career despite being a QB, and missing two full seasons, and being a backup pretty much all of last year. He's not a pure passer, but his other talents sets up his offense to succeed. It aids the running back in that the defense must now account for more than 1 runner in the backfield.
Mediocre passer? Yes. Mediocre QB? As much as it pains to say it, no. I am not a Vick fan, but the man is far from mediocre as a QB. Sometimes, the passer rating doesn't tell you everything.
No drunk driver truly purposefully swerves to kill a person. They simply end up doing because of their lack of proper judgment. That is not to say their actions are fine, but there is the element of intent that is lacking their crimes. Personally, I would like to see all DUIs come with stiffer penalties, make the penalty something really worth thinking about for the idiots who do that sort of thing.
As to Vick's talents... IndyColtsFan has gone on and on about how he is mediocre. I can only agree that Vick is a mediocre pocket passer. As far as QBs go, he was most definitely in the elite category in his day, and certainly justified his 100+ million dollar contract, prior to his arrest. He's not Peyton Manning, Brees, or Brady. But his talents separate him from all QBs in the league. What a 70.5 passer rating doesn't tell you is that the man ran for 4094 yards in his 10 year career despite being a QB, and missing two full seasons, and being a backup pretty much all of last year. He's not a pure passer, but his other talents sets up his offense to succeed. It aids the running back in that the defense must now account for more than 1 runner in the backfield.
Mediocre passer? Yes. Mediocre QB? As much as it pains to say it, no. I am not a Vick fan, but the man is far from mediocre as a QB. Sometimes, the passer rating doesn't tell you everything.
IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
- 33,655
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Are you able to read? For the ten thousandth time, it has NOTHING to do with his behavior off the field and EVERYTHING to do with his lack of stats/championships! I have DEFENDED him in this VERY thread! Damn it, read my DAMN posts.
I never said he had to get to Canton; you seem to be the one putting him there already and I just said before you put him there, let's see him string together a few great seasons.
Great. Where are the stats to make the comparison valid? Albert Haynesworth got a huge (one of the biggest, if not the biggest) defensive contracts in history. Does that make him great too?
Again, reading comprehension ability is important. I gave you several outs and asked you what made Vick great since:
1. He never made a Super Bowl, let alone win one.
2. He has never led the league in any passing category that I am aware of.
3. His stats certainly weren't enough to qualify him as great.
Stats are just one category I mentioned. Vick doesn't fare well there. There are two other categories as well. He fares well in neither. You've consistently dodged these questions. What makes Vick "great"? At least with the other three, they ALL satisfy #1 and in some cases, #2 as well. Vick satisfies none.
Don't tell me "Vick has GREAT physical ability!!!" because I have TOLD YOU THAT NUMEROUS TIMES! He is probably the most physically gifted QB ever.
LOL. You ignore the very real change in rules and regulations regarding the passing game in the past decade. Unitas passing for 54% in the 60s would be more equivalent to a passer passing in the upper 60% range today. You could MUG receivers back then.
Check Elway's stats and notice the long run of great seasons he had. When Vick does that, we'll talk. Simms, Everett, and Theismann are not considered all-time greats.
I have forgotten more about football than you will ever know. You clearly don't even know about rule changes over the years that benefit passers and even then, Vick has not statistically excelled.
You can't point to a single thing that qualifies Vick as great (and I've given you 3 categories above). You have ZERO evidence backing you up other than "But...but...but.....I say so!"
Even still, you're the one that admitted there were as many as 12 QBs in the league today that are better so by your own admission, you are saying he is in the middle tier of QBs.
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IndyColtsFan
Lifer
- Sep 22, 2007
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For sure it doesn't, but I am waiting for someone to tell me by what objective measure is he great? I'm not discussing his physical abilities any longer as I have said that a) He has a top 3 arm and b) He is an awesome runner.
I know he can run. Everyone does. And while that is a great asset, you guys are forgetting that Vick running was actually a knock against him at one point; coaches felt he was too eager to pack it in and run with it.
Great passing is an essential component of a great QB. If your argument is that Vick is an awesome runner and only a fair passer, then what you're saying is, in effect, that he makes an awesome Wildcat QB. Ok, fine, I'll grant that.
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PClark99
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2000
- 3,833
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Was listening to Mike and Mike this morning and they were talking to Mike Missanelli about this.
Missanelli indicated that there were rumblings from higher up and the germ of the decision came from elsewhere in the organization. Banner and Lurie.
With Kolb at QB the Eagles have no juice. 1 day after Vick is named QB and Halladay wins his 20th, what is the big topic. The eagles.
Eagles are very sensitive to the success of the phils and how it impacts their status in town.
i am basing it on andy reid swearing up and down sunday that he is sticking with kolb as quarterback then come tuesday he has sudden change of heart. i think the owner told him to play him
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