VGLeaks: Xbox 720 specs rumor

[Bobisuruncle54]

Not for a console. You need to keep in mind that developers can really optimize for specific hardware when writing games for consoles, so rather than trying to get a game to run on multiple different GPUs across several generations, they'll only have to get it working on three consoles if they're making their game fully multi-platform. Otherwise it's as few as one architecture to target and that allows them to tune the hell out of the game where they otherwise couldn't due to a need to support several different GPU and CPU configurations.

The PS3 has had some amazing looking games over its lifespan and just think about the ancient (and somewhat cludgy) hardware used in that. These new consoles are going to be plenty powerful.

I agree that the jump should be significant, but I guess people are annoyed that the current consoles have hardware that was pretty powerful compared to PC hardware available at the time when they launched. This time round we're getting consoles with mid level hardware at best, and perhaps it seems worse because graphics on PC games haven't improved dramatically over the years despite going from DX9 to DX11.

 

[A5]

I agree that the jump should be significant, but I guess people are annoyed that the current consoles have hardware that was pretty powerful compared to PC hardware available at the time when they launched. This time round we're getting consoles with mid level hardware at best, and perhaps it seems worse because graphics on PC games haven't improved dramatically over the years despite going from DX9 to DX11.

Not really. The PS3 has a 7800GT in it, and it came out a few days after the 8800 GTX launched. The 360 is a hybrid of the X850 and X1800 series from ATI.

The PS4 will be in about the same place as last time, but if the rumors are true the next XBox could be a bit more behind. Considering it took a few years last time for PC ports to run well on commodity hardware, being a bit behind isn't really a big deal for the consoles.

 

[Drako]

Not really. The PS3 has a 7800GT in it, and it came out a few days after the 8800 GTX launched. The 360 is a hybrid of the X850 and X1800 series from ATI.

The PS4 will be in about the same place as last time, but if the rumors are true the next XBox could be a bit more behind. Considering it took a few years last time for PC ports to run well on commodity hardware, being a bit behind isn't really a big deal for the consoles.

I think MS might be playing a little more conservative with the thermal design this time around.

 

[dagamer34]

I agree that the jump should be significant, but I guess people are annoyed that the current consoles have hardware that was pretty powerful compared to PC hardware available at the time when they launched. This time round we're getting consoles with mid level hardware at best, and perhaps it seems worse because graphics on PC games haven't improved dramatically over the years despite going from DX9 to DX11.

I just find it silly that some people want consoles to have the equivalent of a 7970 in a package that's supposed to draw less than 200W and cost $400 at maximum. The video card itself costs that much and uses that much power! -_-

If those people want maximum graphics, get a PC. Designing a console is about making smart choices with a respectable budget so that playing a game is as simple as sticking in a disc so you get new experiences without breaking the bank.

 

[Ban Bot]

I just find it silly that some people want consoles to have the equivalent of a 7970 in a package that's supposed to draw less than 200W and cost $400 at maximum. The video card itself costs that much and uses that much power! -_-

If those people want maximum graphics, get a PC. Designing a console is about making smart choices with a respectable budget so that playing a game is as simple as sticking in a disc so you get new experiences without breaking the bank.

The die space allocated to the CPU and GPU in Durango is a lot less than the Xbox 360 (which from a HW perspective was not overly complex or expensive). Xenos was 2 chips (about 180mm^2 and 90mm^2) at 90nm at launch and Xenon was about 150mm^2 (each CPU was about 30mm^2 and the remainder of die space was the 1MB of shared L2 cache and bus). That is about 500mm^2, give or take, of total die space.

Cape Verde (7770) is a 123mm^2 GPU at 28nm. Durango is fairly close to Cape Verde units + 32MB of ESRAM (which sounds like a variant of 1T-SRAM in which case it will be in the 20-50mm^2 range). So the total GPU budget is shrinking about about 100mm^2.

The CPU side is just as bad. Jaguar cores are about 3mm^2 each and the L2 cache is 3-5mm^2 (give or take) so the CPU is going to fall under 60mm^2. Again, about 100mm^2 less than the Xbox 360 budget for the CPU.

Durango is looking to cut out 200mm^2 of silicon footprint--about a 33% reduction in budgets.

The main memory this go around is also going on the cheap side; the Xbox 360 had for the time relatively fast GDDR3 memory; Durango is going with bog standard DDR3 (8GB of DDR3 can be scored easily for $50 at retail).

Someone raised the RRoD red flag but last time I checked lead-free solder is now much better understood. Further 1.6GHz Jaguar cores are low power with fairly low thermals. Cape Verde at 1GHz is also a lower power GPU (80W rated for the entire GPU) but Durango is underclocked down to 800MHz. (Side note that SRAM is better than eDRAM in regards to power as well). Durango may top out in the 100W-110W range (and thus a power brick rated for about 140W)--this is like a 33% drop over the Xbox 360 iirc.

The issue isn't so much trying to keep pace with the PC--PC GPU thermals increased leaps and bounds from the early 2000s and the silicon budgets also grew substantially. Whereas the Xbox 360 and PS3 had parts roughly similar in size and thermals compared to their top-end PC counterparts to do so today would require consoles rated at nearly 400W and silicon budgets for the GPU alone racing above 350mm^2 depending on the model.

The real issue is MS and Sony are taking big steps back in terms of hardware. Sony is doing so due to fiscal issues (they have no other choice). MS, based on talking with a MS employee, is a shift in market focus. Durango wants to capture the Wii audience and become the box EVERYONE has in their livingroom. It isn't a game-first platform and it isn't a "capture the core gamers first and fish for the casuals as a matter of consequence". This is a SKYPE box trojan aimed to extended services via Xbox Live and to get Kinect 2 w/ set top functions into the market.

 

[badb0y]

They don't want to sell the console in the red from the start because they bleed too much money that way.

 

[Bobisuruncle54]

Not really. The PS3 has a 7800GT in it, and it came out a few days after the 8800 GTX launched. The 360 is a hybrid of the X850 and X1800 series from ATI.

The PS4 will be in about the same place as last time, but if the rumors are true the next XBox could be a bit more behind. Considering it took a few years last time for PC ports to run well on commodity hardware, being a bit behind isn't really a big deal for the consoles.

Actually the GPU in the 360 is between a X1900 XT and X2900 XT - it uses the unified shader architecture that the 2900 XT. With regards to the 8800GTX however you're right, it was even available a few days before the PS3 went on sale, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it suddenly meant the 7800GT was low end. If the same approach to hardware was taken with the new consoles we would be getting the equivalent of something like a 560Ti GTX 448, which is a step up compared to what it appears we may be seeing in the PS4/Xbox.

 

[mmntech]

I think MS might be playing a little more conservative with the thermal design this time around.

Both of them need to. The fat PS3's dirty little secret is they get the RRoD too. It just takes longer due to the giant fan. However, there's next to no ventilation at the top of the case where the power supply is. Those things get damn hot. My theory is they cook the backside of the motherboard.

Based on these GPU rumours, the Durango is very similar to the Orbis. Microsoft has a definite advantage running this kind of hardware. Especially if these things run on Windows 8. They should be able to directly port any PC game to the Durango, which virtually eliminates the shortage of games plaguing the current crop of 8th gen systems.

 

[purbeast0]

Based on these GPU rumours, the Durango is very similar to the Orbis. Microsoft has a definite advantage running this kind of hardware. Especially if these things run on Windows 8. They should be able to directly port any PC game to the Durango, which virtually eliminates the shortage of games plaguing the current crop of 8th gen systems.

hope that is not the case. if i wanted pc games i'd buy a gaming pc.

 

[Aikouka]

Based on these GPU rumours, the Durango is very similar to the Orbis. Microsoft has a definite advantage running this kind of hardware. Especially if these things run on Windows 8. They should be able to directly port any PC game to the Durango, which virtually eliminates the shortage of games plaguing the current crop of 8th gen systems.

I'm not sure how well that would work though. I mean, the usual comment that you hear about how console games are designed is that being able to have much more low-level hardware access provides speed increases that aren't available through your modern OS.

Now, I don't think that your idea isn't completely viable as it's pretty much the exact same concept as XNA but with Direct X. Windows, Windows Phone and the 360 all have XNA libraries, which allows easier porting between the devices, and the same could be done with Direct X.

 

[American Gunner]

I saw this somewhere else and didn't know if anyone had seen it yet.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/the...hand-games-50gb-blu-ray-discs-and-new-kinect/

 

[Pheran]

I saw this somewhere else and didn't know if anyone had seen it yet.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/the...hand-games-50gb-blu-ray-discs-and-new-kinect/

I'm calling BS on the first line of the article:

Microsoft’s next console will require an Internet connection in order to function

That would cut MS out of a huge swath of the casual buyer market. There are *many* consumers that don't bother to connect their console to the net.

 

[American Gunner]

I think it will be interesting to see if this is true. I do trade in older games when I am completely done with them, and I will buy used games when it is a game I am on the fence about and want to check out and can get it used for pretty cheap. I don't know if they would do it if Sony doesn't, because if Sony doesn't do this then they will have people jump on their console instead of the Next Xbox.

 

[dagamer34]

I'm calling BS on the first line of the article:



That would cut MS out of a huge swath of the casual buyer market. There are *many* consumers that don't bother to connect their console to the net.

At some point though, not connecting a console to the Internet becomes as silly as not connecting a computer to the Internet, whether it's 2013 or 2023.

 

[American Gunner]

At some point though, not connecting a console to the Internet becomes as silly as not connecting a computer to the Internet, whether it's 2013 or 2023.

I agree with you on this. It is pretty silly. I am more worried about the no used games, but we will see in the next month or so when they announce it. Would anyone here not get it and get a PS4 if they did this and Sony didn't?

 

[purbeast0]

At some point though, not connecting a console to the Internet becomes as silly as not connecting a computer to the Internet, whether it's 2013 or 2023.

The difference being a lot of the computers online are not on broadband yet. You can't get on a current console online without broadband and I don't see that part changing next gen.

 

[SMOGZINN]

At some point though, not connecting a console to the Internet becomes as silly as not connecting a computer to the Internet, whether it's 2013 or 2023.

There is a lot of parents that don't want their 12 year old having internet access on her console. The fact is that for the majority of buyers consoles are toys for kids.

 

[dagamer34]

There is a lot of parents that don't want their 12 year old having internet access on her console. The fact is that for the majority of buyers consoles are toys for kids.

Average age of a gamer today is 30, with a majority well over the age of 18: http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/726494/the-average-age-of-a-gamer-is-30-says-esa/

And I think a 12 year old could hook up a console to a WiFi network if he/she really wanted to. Besides, a modern console is no longer just a "game machine". It hasn't been for years. And next-gen consoles certainly won't have gaming as an overwhelming focus, but one of many functions (watching/recording TV, listening to music, letting you display pictures, watch YouTube videos, etc...). It's not 2005 anymore.

 

[mmntech]

I saw this somewhere else and didn't know if anyone had seen it yet.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/the...hand-games-50gb-blu-ray-discs-and-new-kinect/

If it doesn't allow used games, then new games are going to have to be substantially cheaper. No way am I paying $60 for something I can't sell or trade, ever. How wasteful is that? DRM is starting to get far too out of hand, to the point where it's violating consumers' basic rights.

The problem is for this to work, both Sony and Nintendo have to implement it as well. Otherwise it will push a lot of budget minded gamers to which ever system allows used and traded games.

My problem is their war is not with gamers but with Gamestop. As usual it's the gamer that's getting punished. Besides that, you don't see car manufacturers, or appliance makers going after used dealers like this. It's pure greed.

 

[zerocool84]

At some point though, not connecting a console to the Internet becomes as silly as not connecting a computer to the Internet, whether it's 2013 or 2023.

I moved and of course didn't have Internet or TV for at least a week and just played games. It'd really suck not being able to do that. We won't even be able to bring our systems to a friend or family members house either without connecting to the net which sucks.

 

[Ban Bot]

Information about the "Move Engines."

 

[ddarko]

I agree with you on this. It is pretty silly. I am more worried about the no used games, but we will see in the next month or so when they announce it. Would anyone here not get it and get a PS4 if they did this and Sony didn't?

You're missing the significance of mandatory persistent internet connection. It's not there so you can always see if your friends are online - according to the Edge report, the reason a persistent internet connection would be required is so that a console can check to see if a game disc matches up to the console on which it was activated. Persistent internet connection enables the freezing out of used games, the two go hand-in-hand. If you care about used games, you shouldn't be so blase about the always-on internet connection.

The problem is for this to work, both Sony and Nintendo have to implement it as well. Otherwise it will push a lot of budget minded gamers to which ever system allows used and traded games.

My problem is their war is not with gamers but with Gamestop. As usual it's the gamer that's getting punished. Besides that, you don't see car manufacturers, or appliance makers going after used dealers like this. It's pure greed.

There have long been rumors - backed up by filed patents - that Sony will in fact do something similar using a scheme where you activate a game through a NFC microchip embedded on the disc. Sony's system doesn't seem to need a persistent internet connection like Microsoft - maybe a one-time check every time you start the game rather than a persistent always on - but it does the same thing. And I don't think you need Nintendo to join to make it effective. Nintendo's console is different enough from Sony and Microsoft that I think the latter two could lock down their systems without too much concern that everyone would jump to Nintendo.

As terrible as this idea is, I have the sense the industry is stupid enough to do it, just as the music and movie content industry wagged years of pointless warfare against filesharing. The stakeholders who are pushing for it are developers and publishers who funnel huge amounts of money into Microsoft and Sony. The console makers themselves get no cut of the royalties from used game sales so at least on first glance, the financial interest of the console makers lines up with the publishers and developers. The only player with the financial muscle to counter this POV has been game retailers like Gamestop but as Gamestop has weakened, it's lost clout. I think it's very plausible a tipping point has been reached and the publishers/developers have gained the upper hand for the next gen consoles.

I could easily see Microsoft and Sony being hypnotized by the notion that every sale of a used game represents a "theft" from their pockets and become deluded by the pipe dream that sales of new games would skyrocket if only used sales were stopped (just the studios think the DVD home market would be revitalized if only filesharing was halted). As you point out, no one can explain why the resale of a used book/music CD/DVD/Blu-ray/car/house isn't also a "theft" from the publisher/label/studio/carmaker/home builder and shouldn't also be curbed.

Nor do the video industry guys seem to appreciate that many people who buy used games are price sensitive so they won't buy new games if used games go away - they just won't buy games, period. They also seem deaf to the argument that even though the sale of a used game may not directly benefit a publisher/developer/console maker, the existence of a secondary resale market ultimately increases the sales of consoles and games because many price sensitive buyers who would otherwise be scared off from a console system if they knew they could only buy $60 new games are willing to commit because of the availability of much cheaper used games.

It stuns me how insane this is in when dedicated console industry is being hit by casual free online gaming and super-cheap games on smartphones. The answer to that threat is to make it more expensive to game on dedicated gaming consoles?! Talk about digging your own grave. It's tragic because there are lots of smart folks in the video game industry who have this kind of self-defeating tunnel vision. Unfortunately, the tech industry seems unusually good at shooting itself in the foot. I expect these anti-used game systems will be in place both for the next Xbox and Playstation.

 

[jpiniero]

Well, It's possible that games will be cheaper. I don't think you should expect it though. Stopping Gamestop et al from selling a fairly recent title for $5 cheaper used is what they are after.

I believe they are also going to mandate that every game be available to download. That at least solves one problem with removing used games - games out of print.

 

[KentState]

What's the point of owning a console if it lacks all the benefits to not being just another pc? On many occasions, I've taken a game to a friends house to play, but it looks like those days are over.

 

[BoberFett]

If MS or Sony are dumb enough to do that, I'm done with consoles.