VGLeaks: Xbox 720 specs rumor

[Doppel]

I'll bet you $200 that more working PS3's are actively used right now than 360's.

Might want to reconsider that:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2286016

That poll indicates a statistically significant bias toward the 360 in those who have both a 360 and ps3, as far as gaming is concerned.

 

[A5]

Might want to reconsider that:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2286016

That poll indicates a statistically significant bias toward the 360 in those who have both a 360 and ps3, as far as gaming is concerned.

95 votes on this forum isn't a statistically significant sample in any possible meaning of the term.

http://www.vgchartz.com/

VGChartz is not a reputable source.

 

[Oyeve]

95 votes on this forum isn't a statistically significant sample in any possible meaning of the term.


VGChartz is not a reputable source.

But it is a good judge. I for one own both consoles and play 95% on the xbox. Why have the PS3 then? two reasons and I bet many have done the same:

1. BR. That is all. I got it primarily for BR.

2. Im a gadget geek. I got the PS3 because I could, not really because I had to have one. It plays the occasional BR movie and I havent played a game on it in 6 months.

Even tho I have to pay to play online with xbox and its free on PS3 the online experience IMO is better.


I just hope the next xbox console is xbox 1 and 360 backwards compatible.

 

[Ban Bot]

http://www.vgchartz.com/

I personally know people that recently got PS3's strictly for Black Ops 2. I know others who switched from 360 to PS3 and their first purchase was the current CoD. With prices dropped, there's no reason to have a 360 over a PS3 anymore. People are moving over just in time for the next gen, so Microsoft needs to not make ANY mistakes or they will lose this next race a lot faster.

This is really OFF-TOPIC. But for the record: NPD. Look it up (forums like GAF and Beyond3D have monthly threads dedicated to discussing the numbers so you can find data there). For the record the Xbox 360 version of multiplatform titles routinely outsells the PS3 version. Games with legacy fans from popular PS2 franchises or special platform content (Joker in one of the Batmans, Vader in SC, etc) are the general exceptions.

As for the Durango rumors: it sounds like the 32MB of "ESRAM" is not just a framebuffer but is being encouraged to be used as a low latency memory pool accessible by the entire GPU pipeline.

 

[JackBurton]

But it is a good judge. I for one own both consoles and play 95% on the xbox. Why have the PS3 then? two reasons and I bet many have done the same:

1. BR. That is all. I got it primarily for BR.

2. Im a gadget geek. I got the PS3 because I could, not really because I had to have one. It plays the occasional BR movie and I havent played a game on it in 6 months.

Even tho I have to pay to play online with xbox and its free on PS3 the online experience IMO is better.


I just hope the next xbox console is xbox 1 and 360 backwards compatible.

If it is backwards compatible, it is a day one buy for me. It will probably be a day one buy for me anyway, but I'd be MUCH happier with BC. I can then retire both of my 360's.

 

[Aikouka]

If it is backwards compatible, it is a day one buy for me. It will probably be a day one buy for me anyway, but I'd be MUCH happier with BC. I can then retire both of my 360's.

I don't know if it would change your mind, but as I've mentioned before, I would bet that the backwards compatibility is going to be similar to the 360 where only specific titles are supported through software-based emulation. Given the need to keep thermals and cost down, I highly doubt that you'll see the 360 hardware included. That's what Sony did with the original PS3 release, which included the PS2's CPU and GPU (Emotion Engine). They eventually cut out the CPU, which resulted in about 85% backwards compatibility (I have this one), and then removed the emotion engine.

As for the Durango rumors: it sounds like the 32MB of "ESRAM" is not just a framebuffer but is being encouraged to be used as a low latency memory pool accessible by the entire GPU pipeline.

I'm certainly no expert, but I can't figure out what else you would want to store in that space other than some sort of (partially-)rendered frame.

 

[Todd33]

This is really OFF-TOPIC. But for the record: NPD. Look it up (forums like GAF and Beyond3D have monthly threads dedicated to discussing the numbers so you can find data there). For the record the Xbox 360 version of multiplatform titles routinely outsells the PS3 version. Games with legacy fans from popular PS2 franchises or special platform content (Joker in one of the Batmans, Vader in SC, etc) are the general exceptions.

Wait the 360 sells more in its strongest region!!?? Really, tell me more, this is fascinating! :whiste:

If you look at revenue from various platforms for MP publishers, the PS3 is about the same as the 360. This info is not for specific titles, just revenue from the platform overall, which is more important than if COD sold more in NA on the 360 or not.

Xbox 360 has unsurprisingly generated the most revenue, raking in $292 million in the last three months, while PS3 has achieved $267 million.

http://www.psu.com/a016372/EAs-Q1-earnings-show-PC-generated-more-revenue-than-PS3

That's a pretty small difference.

 

[OVerLoRDI]

Hey look the optical disc drive is still sticking around. I'm surprised, disc drives are a massive target point for piracy, I mean backups.

I'm curious to see what kind of copy protection they employ this time around. I'm willing to bet the copy protection will be more internet based instead of locally based as it was in the 360 or before. I wouldn't be surprised if next gen console games come with serial keys that authenticate against your Live account. That way it doesn't matter if the discs can be copied.

It would ruin the used game market, but then MS could open their own market place to sell games to your friends and MS and the developer take a cut of the price.

More thinking out loud, it would be awesome if they allowed you to loan your serial key (without actually revealing it) to a friend for a week or so.

This way people can maintain the easy of loaning games to people and selling used games. MS wins, consumers don't lose as much as they normally would, and everyone is mostly happy.

I'm dreaming aren't I? Likely it will be total lock down and it will be awful.

 

[Doppel]

95 votes on this forum isn't a statistically significant sample in any possible meaning of the term.

Really, professor? In fact you are quite wrong. 95 is an ample sample size for statistical significance. Argue the merits of the poll in other ways, but please try to be correct next time.

 

[Ban Bot]

I'm certainly no expert, but I can't figure out what else you would want to store in that space other than some sort of (partially-)rendered frame.

What I heard from a developer (who is NOT working on Durango but has friends who are) is that MS is encouraging developers to use the space for compute and for buffering the threads (essentially a really large register file and cache). Compute is vauge and broad but there are a lot of workloads you can do (animated particles, water, etc). GPUs are good at hiding latency but GPUs have latency to memory in the thousand of cycles and cache misses are expensive. Going to a model where your memory turn around is in the order of a couple dozen cycles opens up more algorhythms.

Personally I would be interested to know if "Megatextures" (virtual texturing) could benefit as you could fit the entire screenspace budget of textures into the ESRAM. Again, really really low latency/high bandwidth to the entire texture budget for a frame could open up some neat scenarios *if the memory has low latency, high enough bandwidth and is flexbile/accessible enough in regards to read/write by the CPU/GPU.*

32MB is enough for an entire 1080p framebuffer+Z. Having the depth buffer present should allow, if the bandwidth is high and latency low, all sort of compute-based post processing on the framebuffer. If this is infact the case any IQ drop due to main memory bandwidth and lower compute than Orbis may be offset by some pretty stellar post processing.

Of cours ESRAM could be a glorified eDRAM module like Xenos

For MS's and Xbox Fan's sake I would hope the ESRAM has really low latencies, high bandwidth, and maybe even the ROPs embedded (having 32 ROPs at 800Mhz with the bandwidth to support such could make for some really nice graphics).

 

[Ban Bot]

Wait

You should have stopped at "Wait" because per the discussion of *NA* sales that blurredvision qualified and Malak responded to with a challenge you would know your "correct" is incorrect. Malak asserted, via VGChartz (lol) and a single game title that, due to the RROD, more PS3's were active in *NA* than 360's.

My post's entry was to address this issue: NA install base predicated (incorrectly mind you) based on unit sales of a title. The methodology is poor (using software sales for active units ignored demographic purchasing frequency and patterns), the source used is poor (VGchartz), and ignoring the long history of multiplatform titles showed a total disregard for the facts (360 routinely bests PS3 multiplatform sales).

He twisted the facts (1 title sample contradicted by hundreds of examples), used a bad source (VG vs. NPD), while employing a faulty method (software sales as a metric of active hardware units).

Btw, thanks for the EA numbers. So as you posted the 360 has higher revenue you ARE argueing the 360 has more active units. Funny how you jump on a NA sales tangent only to poo-poo the facts, even when they support the line of thought the original question invoked.

Of course this is coming from a guy who thought it was a good idea when someone recently asked about multiplayer games on the 360 and said "get a PS3" haha

 

[cmdrdredd]

BS. The people that always claim a product is "overpriced" are normally the loser. It's just some stupid cop out when they see a higher price tag. They normally don't even know the difference between the product they're looking at and the higher priced product. They just quickly say, "it's overpriced" to somehow make themselves feel better.

Now if someone says, "they can't justify the extra cost," I can totally respect that. Not everyone is a videophile or puts that much emphasis on PQ. They just want something decent. But don't try and pretend you somehow are slick and got something for nothing, because you didn't. An edge lit LCD is not the same as a full array backlit LCD. Sorry. And no matter how much you claim it is "overpriced'" isn't going to change that fact. Sorry.

you are full of shit. That's all

 

[JackBurton]

you are full of shit. That's all

Sure I am....sure I am.

 

[zebrax2]

BS. The people that always claim a product is "overpriced" are normally the loser. It's just some stupid cop out when they see a higher price tag. They normally don't even know the difference between the product they're looking at and the higher priced product. They just quickly say, "it's overpriced" to somehow make themselves feel better.

I would disagree. I would even say that he is a winner if he calls a product that looks and function the same for him in comparison to another product "overpriced" since that is exactly what the product is for him; a product with premium features that he doesn't even need nor notice.

 

[JackBurton]

I would disagree. I would even say that he is a winner if he calls a product that looks and function the same for him in comparison to another product "overpriced" since that is exactly what the product is for him; a product with premium features that he doesn't even need nor notice.

It doesn't function the same. And again, audio/video section.

 

[Todd33]

My post's entry was to address this issue: NA install base predicated (incorrectly mind you) based on unit sales of a title. The methodology is poor (using software sales for active units ignored demographic purchasing frequency and patterns), the source used is poor (VGchartz), and ignoring the long history of multiplatform titles showed a total disregard for the facts (360 routinely bests PS3 multiplatform sales).

I am now lost on what you are arguing, I'll admit it. You are claiming multiplatform games sell better, but the install base is larger?

Let's start simple: NA is the 360's strongest market. Any sales info from NA will cast the 360 in the best light. Using NA numbers to make an argument will be biased.

When you factor in the rest of the world, all bets are off. The 360 and PS3 are basically tied in sales, software sales, etc.


PS. I would always sugest a free to play platform for MP, who want to pay for Gold? I did for years and feel dirty to this day. PC/PS3 is the best place for MP gaming.

 

[Drako]

PS. I would always sugest a free to play platform for MP, who want to pay for Gold? I did for years and feel dirty to this day. PC/PS3 is the best place for MP gaming.

Wow @ "feeling dirty" for paying the outragous $3.00/month for Gold. :biggrin:

I'm going to feel dirty for paying $8.00 for a beer tonight at the Sharks/Oilers game.

 

[cmdrdredd]

When it comes to XBL Gold, I found myself having it and never really using it. I would play the newest shooter or forza for a while. Maybe a month or two then stop and it would sit again. I don't use any of the apps on it like UFC etc.

 

[Pheran]

New rumor from VGLeaks:

Durango's GPU detailed

This article contains detailed info about how the ESRAM works in conjunction with main memory as well as a whole bunch of technical detail about the inner workings of the GPU (don't miss pages 2 and 3!). Any GPU whizzes want to take a shot at predicting what the performance will be like based on these specs? I realize this may be difficult due to the unusual memory architecture.

 

[crisium]

So if I'm reading this right, it's slightly faster than a 7870m? Seems just about desktop Radeon 6790 class performance. Not as good as a desktop 7770.

 

[Ban Bot]

I haven't got a chance to look through all the architectural notes and compare to GCN but, efficiency aside (which you know MS is going to ride hard in regards to the ESRAM), Durango is looking to be a Cap Verda class GPU. It isn't just the Flops but also the Pixel and Texel fillrate and the vertex/poly setup rate is still 2 per clock.

The 102GB/s for the ESRAM is especially dissappointing. Yes GDDR5 is expensive and the traces require a bit of power and a wide bus causes problems for cost reduction (pads don't shrink quickly so if, to throw out a number, if the smallest die size you can get with a 256bit bus is 200mm^2 it cuts into future process shrinks) but the bandwidth, along with the Flops, Texels, and Pixels rates all indicate something along the lines of Cap Verde like performance.

Durango
CUs: 12 (768) Note: @ 800MHz = 1.23GFLOPs
TMU: 48 (38.4GT/s)
ROP: 16 (12.8GPixel/s)

7770 Cap Verde
CUs: 10 (640) Note: @ 1GHz = 1.28GFLOPs
TMU: 40 (40.0GT/s)
ROP: 16 (16GPixel/s)
Memory: 128bit bus, 72GB/s
Other: 80W TDP, 123mm^2 die

7870 Pitcairn
CUs: 20 (1280) Note: @ 1GHz = 2.56GFLOPs
TMU: 80
ROP: 32
Memory: 256bit bus, 192GB/s
Other: 175W TDP, 212mm^2 die

7850 Pitcairn
CUs: 16 (1024) Note: @ 860MHz = 1.76GFLOPs
TMU: 64
ROP: 32
Memory: 256bit bus, 153GB/s
Other: 130W TDP, 212mm^2 die

 

[clok1966]

the backward compatibility is HUGE (to me) if its true as Sony has said they aren't doing it. Also the talk of scaling chip, i think you guys are seeing it wrong.. 1080P is all but a givin.. but a game that stutters being dropped to 720 would speed it up.. so I'm "guessing" its going to give an option to lower res for speed maybe?

all the stuff im seeing is both have enough Useabel ram (mas has more) but Sony has a slightly better GPU.. if true its going to be a wash, the better dev tools and sales will tell the story. MS "should" come out on top again.. fairly even hardware, deeper pockets for exclusives, stronger Online in last gen.. Sony appears to be launching first, has gotten rid of the exotic "paper tiger" architecture and went for a more mainstream one so the "great on paper, but nobody wants to program for" issue may be gone.

I'm sure i will have both , just like i do know.

 

[Ban Bot]

Comparing this info with GCN: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4455/amds-graphics-core-next-preview-amd-architects-for-compute/4

GCN is 16 ALU x 4 SIMD per CU = 64 "SPs"
Durango looks to have GCN CUs based on the VG data (which indicates the same 16 wide SIMD)

Cache also appears to be configured much like GCN:
GCN Memory CU:
16KB Read L1 (data and texture cache)
32KB Read L1
64KB Local Data Store
Durango: LSM (Local Store Memory = same as GCN Local Data Store?) is also 64KB
GCN L2 = 64KB to 128KB per Memory controller, Caymen class has 512KB
Durango L2 is 512KB (4 x 128KB); looks very GCN like

A lot of the architectural notes comparing Durango versus Xbox 360 apply to GCN as well (e.g. GCN also accepts compressed textures in cache).

The information on page 3 regarding fill rate and alphablending is dissappointing and indicates the ESRAM wasn't leveraged for crazy fill rate for transparencies (which the low bandwidth on the ESRAM already indicated).

EDIT: the ESRAM info was interesting though, especially the shared memory addressing. If it is low latency (?) and offers simple ways to tile and read/write back and forth Durango could be quite a bit faster than Cap Verde. Could...

Kind of sad that a 2013 console is getting a GPU (Cap Verde class) that cannot run very high settings at 1080p and hit 60Hz in games like Warhead, BF3, Dirt 3, Batman AC, etc. Best case seems 30Hz on High/Med with post-process AA on current PC titles doesn't indicate much room for growth.

 

[Pheran]

I agree that the GPU specs seem underwhelming. I was hoping for maybe 7850-level performance. It makes me question whether they are really targeting 1080p for games (assuming this info is real of course).

 

[Mopetar]

I agree that the GPU specs seem underwhelming.

Not for a console. You need to keep in mind that developers can really optimize for specific hardware when writing games for consoles, so rather than trying to get a game to run on multiple different GPUs across several generations, they'll only have to get it working on three consoles if they're making their game fully multi-platform. Otherwise it's as few as one architecture to target and that allows them to tune the hell out of the game where they otherwise couldn't due to a need to support several different GPU and CPU configurations.

The PS3 has had some amazing looking games over its lifespan and just think about the ancient (and somewhat cludgy) hardware used in that. These new consoles are going to be plenty powerful.