Valve's Steamworks makes DRM/Crippleware Obsolete

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Wow, of all the illogical arguments that I have ever seen, people claiming that MMOs are DRM? Seriously?

It is a TOTALLY different business model.

Good grief...talk about apples to oranges.

It's like saying, "But motorcycles and cars are the same! They both have combustion engines!"

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
I can't prove that games would sell better without DRM. I can only tell you that several people in this thread, including myself, would be more likely to buy a game if it did not include restrictive DRM. Those are potential sales that have been lost, and not due to piracy.

And like I said several posts back. DRM never would have existed had those before you not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that when given the chance they will steal the software.

This is as preposterous as saying "We would be better without cops because I promise I'd never mug someone".

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: skace
Hahahaha, so if you are in the majority that likes Steam you are a shill now. Love it.

It's obvious now that you are a troll. I clearly state earlier in this thread that I DO NOT LIKE OR USE STEAM.

Good grief, be less obvious next time.

1/10

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Wow, of all the illogical arguments that I have ever seen, people claiming that MMOs are DRM? Seriously?

It is a TOTALLY different business model.

Good grief...talk about apples to oranges.

It's like saying, "But motorcycles and cars are the same! They both have combustion engines!"

MMO's require active account logons, yes this is a DRM scheme. Technically, they could have a system by where ANYONE can play the MMO and then pay outside of the game, but they don't.

Steam's model is similar to MMO's, require a logon, require authentication to a server. It may not have a pay per month fee attached but that doesn't matter when discussing DRM.

 

[Red Irish]

When I started posting on the thread entitled "Securom on Games" I was called a troll, a spreader of misinformation and a pirate on various occasions. The same thing is happening here. That's fine with me: I would suggest that name-calling is indicative of an incapacity to formulate a convincing argument.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
It's obvious now that you are a troll. I clearly state earlier in this thread that I DO NOT LIKE OR USE STEAM.

Good grief, be less obvious next time.

1/10

Exactly what does you liking Steam have to do with whether I like Steam?

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: skace
So it's known enough to be pirated but not known enough to be bought? Does not compute.

"Known" in P2P circles need only mean "available". I think I described it pretty simply above. If it's available on some tracker, it's visible, and will be downloaded. Not because people are naturally pirates, but the dedicated pirate who follows new uploads religiously and uses P2P as his primary source of software and entertainment will have no problem downloading some random game to try it out. On the other hand, I don't consider these games highly visible to the crowd likely to actually buy them. I know I hadn't even heard of World of Goo until last month, and I laugh every time I read the name of the other one. I would not be inclined to buy these games on a whim, whereas a pirate would not hesitate to do so.

Show me the figures on Prince of Persia and I'll bite.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
When I started posting on the thread entitled "Securom on Games" I was called a troll, a spreader of misinformation and a pirate on various occasions. The same thing is happening here. That's fine with me: I would suggest that name-calling is indicative of an incapacity to formulate a convincing argument.

For the record, that wasn't directed at Ryan, he only responded to a trend started by the "other side".

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
"Known" in P2P circles need only mean "available". I think I described it pretty simply above. If it's available on some tracker, it's visible, and will be downloaded. Not because people are naturally pirates, but the dedicated pirate who follows new uploads religiously and uses P2P as his primary source of software and entertainment will have no problem downloading some random game to try it out. On the other hand, I don't consider these games highly visible to the crowd likely to actually buy them. I know I hadn't even heard of World of Goo until last month, and I laugh every time I read the name of the other one. I would not be inclined to buy these games on a whim, whereas a pirate would not hesitate to do so.

Show me the figures on Prince of Persia and I'll bite.

How about you get some goddamn figures. What is with the onus on Chizow and I to get all the figures, get off your lazy ass for once. You guys are the ones trying to make people believe that everyone should give away their hard work to you.

And you make an extremely large leap of faith that just because people running BT follow trackers that they'd just randomly download it and play it for no reason. And that those dedicated BTers would completely outweigh the people who bought it.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
I can't prove that games would sell better without DRM. I can only tell you that several people in this thread, including myself, would be more likely to buy a game if it did not include restrictive DRM. Those are potential sales that have been lost, and not due to piracy.

And like I said several posts back. DRM never would have existed had those before you not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that when given the chance they will steal the software.

This is as preposterous as saying "We would be better without cops because I promise I'd never mug someone".

First, let's be clear: piracy is not stealing. It's copyright infringement, a different crime. But theft is shorter and sounds extra nasty, so I get why you're using it.

Second, it's nothing like suggesting we'd be better off without law enforcement. Laws are supposed to protect citizens (even though this isn't always the case) and cops are there to uphold those laws. There's an innate value to their existence. Make no mistake, DRM does absolutely nothing to protect consumers, only companies, and not even the way they advertise.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Chizow, Ryan has called you out. You do not have a convincing answer in relation to the purpose served by DRM on Spore.

Rofl, you seem to think I'm trying to convince people who have proven time and again to be unreasonable and intent only on spreading misinformation. You don't like DRM and will say [insert anything] in order to discredit it. Got it. Have a nice day.

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
I can tell you they would have had at least one more sale had they not included DRM.

And provided that you didn't steal it, the net result is nil.

How can anybody really even guess how the sales numbers would have turned out in other circumstances? This is a goofy game you play with the figures. So more people bought the game than pirated it. How does that prove in any way the effectiveness of SecuROM? The simple fact that 1.7ish million people had no trouble circumventing the DRM should be proof enough that SecuROM utterly failed at preventing this type of copyright infringement. Are you trying to say that the 2 million who actually bought the game around launch time only did so because SecuROM prevented them from pirating it? What a joke. The ratio or "piracy rate" is a pretty meaningless number in this context. There are so many other factors that could have contributed to the success or failure of Spore.

Uh, no, its not meaningless and is infinitely more meaningful than out of context totals. Its really quite simple though. If you have a larger target audience, you're going to end up with more pirated copies, but also more sales. This resulting ratio is going to be largely determined by the DRM scheme employed.

50% seems to be pretty normal for popular titles with traditional DRM schemes, figures back by financial statements and various piracy lists. Games with no DRM see piracy rates as high as 90%, again backed by very real evidence, like IP logging and score submissions (World of Goo, PoP etc). MMOs, subscription-based services, and pay-to-play games see the inverse with regard to % of pirated vs. paid copies with ~10% or less frequently cited. That ratio, or % holds true whether you compare World of Warcraft with 11 million copies sold to Warhammer Online with 1.5 million copies sold.

As for the other two games you showed as examples... "Soccer Game Manager"? World of Goo? I'll tell you why they're pirated more often than purchased: nobody's ever heard of them. World of Goo made it on some year-end lists and just had a promotion on Steam, so I have a feeling these numbers have changed, anyway. But who's going to browse through available titles and, on a whim, think "Ooh, Soccer Game Manager. That sounds AWESOME"? I bet these never even made it into many (if any) retail stores, almost completely ensuring that nobody would ever buy them on an impulse, unlike other highly-publicized games like Spore. But sure, they probably appeared in P2P circles, where pirates are probably more likely to download on impulse because it costs them nothing. So again, it's about making a product 1) attractive, 2) available, and 3) affordable. These titles lacked at least one of these attributes, possibly all three at any given time.

For the record, World of Goo is awesome. And I bought it. On Steam.

You seem to miss the point of citing those examples, those titles do not have DRM, which is why their piracy rates are significant. How about Prince of Persia and Assassins Creed? Certain titles you've heard of. So please if you can find a title that does employ DRM, even ineffective forms, with upward of 80-90% piracy rates, please let me know.

 

[skace]

DRM is there to uphold the law, Cops are there to uphold the law. Just like DRM, a cop won't necessarily be on your side and in fact it's better to have as few run ins with them as possible. Analogy stands.

I don't care what you call piracy, steal is much easier to type.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
I am not going to bother arguing with you any more chizow, because it is a waste of time. It is apparent that you are either a troll or a shill for SecuROM/DRM in general. In the case of being a shill, it is baffling that you would be so happy to surrender your consumer rights, unless the company is paying you very well to say what you say.

What rights have I surrendered? I know exactly what I'm getting when I buy a game, install it, and play it. I've never had a single issue with SecuROM installations, security issues, uninstallations, authorizations or anything else. Not a single issue with Steam either (although I prefer retail box for a variety of reasons).

Its really simple though, I know that DRM isn't going away, I've dealt with it for as long as I've played PC games. If more invasive DRM increases sales, reduces piracy, and increases publisher confidence in the PC as a gaming platform then so be it, DRM is a sacrificing I'm willing to put up with.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
When I started posting on the thread entitled "Securom on Games" I was called a troll, a spreader of misinformation and a pirate on various occasions. The same thing is happening here. That's fine with me: I would suggest that name-calling is indicative of an incapacity to formulate a convincing argument.

LMAOOOO is that a joke? So you think accusations of employment or shilling are any different? If I call you a troll or accuse you of spreading misinformation, I'm going to show exactly why I've said what I have. And I've done exactly that throughout this thread where I've shown you're intent on spreading misinformation rather than the truth.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
It's obvious now that you are a troll. I clearly state earlier in this thread that I DO NOT LIKE OR USE STEAM.

Good grief, be less obvious next time.

1/10

Exactly what does you liking Steam have to do with whether I like Steam?

You made a false ASSumption that since I'm down on SecuROM that I love Steam.

I hate all DRM. It robs consumers of their rights. It does nothing to prevent piracy.

In before: u r a pirate! I do not condone piracy as a protestation of DRM either. I simply don't buy the games that have restrictive DRM.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
I am not going to bother arguing with you any more chizow, because it is a waste of time. It is apparent that you are either a troll or a shill for SecuROM/DRM in general. In the case of being a shill, it is baffling that you would be so happy to surrender your consumer rights, unless the company is paying you very well to say what you say.

What rights have I surrendered? I know exactly what I'm getting when I buy a game, install it, and play it. I've never had a single issue with SecuROM installations, security issues, uninstallations, authorizations or anything else. Not a single issue with Steam either (although I prefer retail box for a variety of reasons).

Its really simple though, I know that DRM isn't going away, I've dealt with it for as long as I've played PC games. If more invasive DRM increases sales, reduces piracy, and increases publisher confidence in the PC as a gaming platform then so be it, DRM is a sacrificing I'm willing to put up with.

Your "Right of First Sale", tool. Go look it up. Destroying your illogical and false arguments is growing old. It no longer amuses me.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
You made a false ASSumption that since I'm down on SecuROM that I love Steam.

I hate all DRM. It robs consumers of their rights. It does nothing to prevent piracy.

In before: u r a pirate! I do not condone piracy as a protestation of DRM either. I simply don't buy the games that have restrictive DRM.

Read what I read as many times for you to realize that I never once said you like Steam at all. You called Chizow a shill, I said wow so people who like Steam are shills.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: skace
DRM is there to uphold the law, Cops are there to uphold the law. Just like DRM, a cop won't necessarily be on your side and in fact it's better to have as few run ins with them as possible. Analogy stands.

I don't care what you call piracy, steal is much easier to type.

Ever hear of police harrassment?

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Red Irish
When I started posting on the thread entitled "Securom on Games" I was called a troll, a spreader of misinformation and a pirate on various occasions. The same thing is happening here. That's fine with me: I would suggest that name-calling is indicative of an incapacity to formulate a convincing argument.

LMAOOOO is that a joke? So you think accusations of employment or shilling are any different? If I call you a troll or accuse you of spreading misinformation, I'm going to show exactly why I've said what I have. And I've done exactly that throughout this thread where I've shown you're intent on spreading misinformation rather than the truth.

You're right. I have called you an EA employee on several occasions and that is far and away the worst insult on this or any other thread.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Your "Right of First Sale", tool. Go look it up. Destroying your illogical and false arguments is growing old. It no longer amuses me.

What the...LOL.

Once again, I can sell any of my retail box titles with SecuROM, if I wanted to. Good thing I don't sell my games though, nor do I have any such intention when I buy them.

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Ever hear of police harrassment?

So I guess we should just do away law enforcement right? It clearly doesn't work 100% and can lead to potential abuses and problems for the people its meant to protect.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
"Known" in P2P circles need only mean "available". I think I described it pretty simply above. If it's available on some tracker, it's visible, and will be downloaded. Not because people are naturally pirates, but the dedicated pirate who follows new uploads religiously and uses P2P as his primary source of software and entertainment will have no problem downloading some random game to try it out. On the other hand, I don't consider these games highly visible to the crowd likely to actually buy them. I know I hadn't even heard of World of Goo until last month, and I laugh every time I read the name of the other one. I would not be inclined to buy these games on a whim, whereas a pirate would not hesitate to do so.

Show me the figures on Prince of Persia and I'll bite.

How about you get some goddamn figures. What is with the onus on Chizow and I to get all the figures, get off your lazy ass for once. You guys are the ones trying to make people believe that everyone should give away their hard work to you.

And you make an extremely large leap of faith that just because people running BT follow trackers that they'd just randomly download it and play it for no reason. And that those dedicated BTers would completely outweigh the people who bought it.

I don't have figures on Prince of Persia because, as far as I know, none have been published. I wasn't demanding them for proof of your claims, sorry if I was unclear. I just mean to imply that the sample size for these games and their lack of popularity may make them outliers. Personally, I don't think you can extrapolate any valuable data about DRM from them given their circumstances, but I accept that it's out there and I'm not saying it's worthless. I'm only interested in seeing more results from games that lack DRM. I mean, hell, we could look at the sales figures for any number of games that were published before DRM took hold, but then we might not also have any reliable data on related piracy. But I digress.

I don't see it as a leap of faith that pirates would randomly sample torrents that they've never heard of. I think it's a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why there would be more downloads than purchases for these titles, but yes, it's only one explanation. You could be 100% right -- it might be that, without DRM, these games have no hope of seeing considerable legitimate sales. I don't think it's true, but it's possible. That's why I would be interested to see the results for a more popular game like PoP.

And what numbers do you want to see from me? I've never claimed that DRM positively or negatively affects sales in general, only that I, myself, will not buy games with certain forms of it.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Your right. I have called you an EA employee on several occasions and that is far and away the worst insult on this or any other thread.

Oh don't worry, I didn't take it as an insult as your accusations have no merit and only reinforce my position that your sole focus is to spread and perpetuate misinformation, even when shown to be provably wrong.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
I can tell you they would have had at least one more sale had they not included DRM.

And provided that you didn't steal it, the net result is nil.

But even if I did pirate it, the net result is nil if I never would have bought it anyway. Stealing implies that I would have actually deprived the owner of something, which is not the case.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
And what numbers do you want to see from me? I've never claimed that DRM positively or negatively affects sales in general, only that I, myself, will not buy games with certain forms of it.

No offense but your posts jump for agreeable to disagreeable in the most random fashion. And apparently your argument is purposefully as sturdy as a blade of grass in the wind.

If your argument was solely that you will not buy games with DRM, then you wouldn't have an argument and would have nothing to post. Because obviously, that option has been available to you all along and no one in this thread can take it away from you.

What numbers do I want to see in general? Start posting proof that removal of DRM would increase publisher/developer profit. Anyone who works in a company knows how justification works, you prove it makes or saves money and you get the nod.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Your "Right of First Sale", tool. Go look it up. Destroying your illogical and false arguments is growing old. It no longer amuses me.

What the...LOL.

Once again, I can sell any of my retail box titles with SecuROM, if I wanted to. Good thing I don't sell my games though, nor do I have any such intention when I buy them.

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Ever hear of police harrassment?

So I guess we should just do away law enforcement right? It clearly doesn't work 100% and can lead to potential abuses and problems for the people its meant to protect.

Anybody tried to sell Spore? The limited activation rights might get in the way of the sale.

No, my stance is not to do away with law enforcement, simply to request that it serves the purpose for which it was intended and no other.