Valve's Steamworks makes DRM/Crippleware Obsolete

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: apoppin

March 24, 2009 - Valve today announced a new set of advanced features delivered in Steamworks, a complete suite of publishing and development tools that are available free of charge to developers and publishers worldwide.

Nothing for us .. it just means [evidently] that ANY publisher can eschew DVD DRM and now use the MOST RESTRICTIVE DRM ON THIS PLANET - which is what Steam actually is.

they are sugar coating a turd

Agreed; this is a ploy to get more publishers to use Steam. But I disagree that it is the MOST RESTRICTIVE form of DRM, at least from the point of view of the average consumer. Steam already allows unlimited installs to unlimited machines as far as I know. I also never noticed Steam breaking my optical drives or stopping me from using some other software on my computer.

The worst parts of Steam are that it's tied so tightly to online authentication and there is no easy or authorized way to resell purchased titles.

well, name a more restrictive form of DRM

if you cannot connect and authenticate, you don't play

and have you have ANY optical drives die due to using SecureCrap ?
- ever ? or know anyone personally that had that issue?

i doubt it

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
No.

The service went down for a few hours and then came back up. This happens occasionally, which is to be expected. What is NOT to be expected, however, is to have Steam designed to lock you out of your programs when it can't phone home. I purchase(d) games through Steam whenever possible, and to not be able to access the majority of my games library through no fault of my own really sucks.

The least they could do is build in some sort of grace period. For instance, if Steam wants to re-validate your credentials and it can't contact the mothership, then you have 7 days to sort it out. Simply shutting down the entire library is ridiculous.

Crazy, I've never had that happen and my account has some serious hours on it. For what it's worth, I remember back when HL used "WON" over Steam. Guess what happened when WON was down? You couldn't connect to legit servers. Steam has never been down anywhere near the times WON went down (which were not frequent in any respect).

It's not that I don't believe you, I just feel that if Valve was having some sort of "rolling brownout" type network disconnect on any sort of frequent basis, I'd have come across it probably more than you have by this point. And yet it's never once inconvenienced me.

And yes lupi, let's compare Steam to Nazis. Great.

It's really sad that possibly one of the best things to happen to small time PC developers since, well, the invention of the PC itself, has so many complainers. Luckily, you're in the minority. Steam picking up pace is a good thing for everyone. I hope they one day sort out reselling, however I don't consider it a priority. And reselling is one of the only valid complaints I've seen.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: apoppin
well, name a more restrictive form of DRM

if you cannot connect and authenticate, you don't play

and have you have ANY optical drives die due to using SecureCrap ?
- ever ? or know anyone personally that had that issue?

i doubt it

Starforce was 10x more restrictive than Steam. It had to update device drivers when I installed a new game and reboot.

I'm pretty certain SecuROM killed my currently dead DVD drive. I've also never been able to figure out how to uninstall the software. Right now I have an External DVD drive connected to my PC.

Steam is the only DRM scheme that ever saved me time. Not having to search for DVDs is a godsend. And the achievements and in-game HUD are both extremely helpful.

Ever rebuilt your PC? Try migrating 100 games from an OLD HDD to a new HDD w/ Steam and w/out it. I'm going to be building a new PC probably thursday/friday (Intel Solid State woot!) and the Steam games will be hands down the easiest piece.
Here is all I need to do:
- Install Steam
- Copy over all my Steam data
- Launch program and let it resync/update as needed

 

[apoppin]

i am glad it works for you
- it is a *fail* for me

some day it may not work so perfectly for you

or maybe it will for me, as everyone is forced to go to Steam

but THIS PRESS RELEASE FROM STEAM IS *DRM* - FOR PUBLISHERS
- Nothing for us

 

[skace]

Actually Steamworks is for us. What it means to the user is more games with achievements and more games that natively support the Steam ingame hud/friend system. Which means the games that utilize steamworks will look more like they function with Steam rather than a 3rd party game being shoe-horned into the system.

It also means we are less likely to see a game that requires Steam but also installs SecuROM in the background.

 

[AstroManLuca]

PC games don't really hold their value anyway. Besides, for the bigger purchases ($40-$50 games) I tend to just buy the retail version. I use Steam to buy games when they're at a discount and for small/indie games.

With console games I do find it worth it to sometimes resell them. They hold their value better and they are more expensive.

 

[chizow]

Rofl love how Steam promotes and propagates traditional FUD about other forms of DRM to promote their own brand of DRM. In particular was their claim of not requiring users to "install root kits on their PC," which is funny considering Steam is probably the closest thing to spyware on my machine. That Steam survey doesn't populate itself based on nothing, you know.

Also, Steam is only the penultimate form of DRM, MMOs that require a form of payment in order to play are "the ultimate". I personally don't like Steam for a variety of reasons, but its looking more and more like a necessary evil that provides publishers and developers the assurance required to continue supporting the PC as a gaming platform. It shouldn't come as any surprise Microsoft is now scrambling to improve their GFWL service to mimic XBox Live and Steam's DRM services.

Also to back Jbourne77's points about some of Steam's problems, wasn't it only a week or two ago that Steam was brought to its knees and suffering from server instability and content delivery problems for extended periods? The release of Empire Total War + UT3 free weekend + $12 sale led to numerous complaints about ETW's delivery and probably prompted Valve to repeat their free UT3 weekend, as many who wanted to try UT3 simply couldn't the first time around.

As for Godwin's Law and video gaming lol....well I'll just say nothing really surprises me anymore coming from Lupi.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: skace
Actually Steamworks is for us. What it means to the user is more games with achievements and more games that natively support the Steam ingame hud/friend system. Which means the games that utilize steamworks will look more like they function with Steam rather than a 3rd party game being shoe-horned into the system.

It also means we are less likely to see a game that requires Steam but also installs SecuROM in the background.

what a load of Steam PR FUD


which when translated means that steam OWNS your games and MANAGES them for YOU and you do not own them you cannot transfer them and you are at their MERCY

fortunately i never had issues with SecureCRAP; i know how to manage my OWN PC
... but i DO not like WHAT *spyware* steam places on MY PC either
:thumbsdown:

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: chizow
That Steam survey doesn't populate itself based on nothing, you know.

Last I checked there are options in the Steam client for whether you want to opt in on surveys. But don't let that stop the misinformation that runs rampant in just about every Steam thread.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: apoppin
what a load of Steam PR FUD


which when translated means that steam OWNS your games and MANAGES them for YOU and you do not own them you cannot transfer them and you are at their MERCY

fortunately i never had issues with SecureCRAP; i know how to manage my OWN PC
... but i DO not like WHAT *spyware* steam places on MY PC either
:thumbsdown:

SecuROM owns your games just as much as Steam, watch what happens when you hit an install limit or can't authenticate. Oh yea. But just because it's in the background and not visible to you it's ok. I see.

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by managing your own pc.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: skace
Last I checked there are options in the Steam client for whether you want to opt in on surveys. But don't let that stop the misinformation that runs rampant in just about every Steam thread.

Certainly nothing as egregious as Steam claiming other forms of DRM install root kits. The difference is those "root kits" (aka simple registry entries) track installation information on your local machine. Steam tracks that information permanently on their servers.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: chizow
That Steam survey doesn't populate itself based on nothing, you know.

Last I checked there are options in the Steam client for whether you want to opt in on surveys. But don't let that stop the misinformation that runs rampant in just about every Steam thread.

Really, where? There are no options to prevent them from tracking data about your machine as its an integral part of how Steam updates your games and clients. Its also going to be the cornerstone of some future features they've announced, like automatic hardware driver updates or recommended configuration settings. Anyways, the Steam client tracks system data persistently but only sends the data if/when you choose to participate, so again, Steam is more akin to spyware than anything SecuROM related. But like anything, its acceptable because Steam is the "benevolent DRM."

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: apoppin
what a load of Steam PR FUD


which when translated means that steam OWNS your games and MANAGES them for YOU and you do not own them you cannot transfer them and you are at their MERCY

fortunately i never had issues with SecureCRAP; i know how to manage my OWN PC
... but i DO not like WHAT *spyware* steam places on MY PC either
:thumbsdown:

SecuROM owns your games just as much as Steam, watch what happens when you hit an install limit or can't authenticate. Oh yea. But just because it's in the background and not visible to you it's ok. I see.

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by managing your own pc.

You mean when you reformat without UNinstalling games?
- i do HW reviews and i have ZERO issues - i reformat at least monthly - or from a HD image

i don't have the issues you have with OTHER DRM that i do with steam's DRM
- clearly i "manage" my PC pretty well

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: jbourne77
No.

The service went down for a few hours and then came back up. This happens occasionally, which is to be expected. What is NOT to be expected, however, is to have Steam designed to lock you out of your programs when it can't phone home. I purchase(d) games through Steam whenever possible, and to not be able to access the majority of my games library through no fault of my own really sucks.

The least they could do is build in some sort of grace period. For instance, if Steam wants to re-validate your credentials and it can't contact the mothership, then you have 7 days to sort it out. Simply shutting down the entire library is ridiculous.

Crazy, I've never had that happen and my account has some serious hours on it. For what it's worth, I remember back when HL used "WON" over Steam. Guess what happened when WON was down? You couldn't connect to legit servers. Steam has never been down anywhere near the times WON went down (which were not frequent in any respect).

It's not that I don't believe you, I just feel that if Valve was having some sort of "rolling brownout" type network disconnect on any sort of frequent basis, I'd have come across it probably more than you have by this point. And yet it's never once inconvenienced me.

And yes lupi, let's compare Steam to Nazis. Great.

It's really sad that possibly one of the best things to happen to small time PC developers since, well, the invention of the PC itself, has so many complainers. Luckily, you're in the minority. Steam picking up pace is a good thing for everyone. I hope they one day sort out reselling, however I don't consider it a priority. And reselling is one of the only valid complaints I've seen.

It's great that you haven't had any problems with it, but it doesn't change the fact that if you did, you wouldn't be able to access your games. The real problem here isn't network unavailability; it's the consequences of network unavailability.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: apoppin
well, name a more restrictive form of DRM

if you cannot connect and authenticate, you don't play

and have you have ANY optical drives die due to using SecureCrap ?
- ever ? or know anyone personally that had that issue?

i doubt it

As was mentioned, Starforce, SecuROM, probably others. Steam is pretty lenient compared to other forms of DRM. Like you said, the real problem is the reliance on one source of authentication servers, or any kind of active connection being required to install and play a game. I guess I've just never had a problem with authenticating and I've never had the urge to resell any of the games I've purchased through Steam. Granted, comparing DRM schemes is kind of like asking if you prefer shit cake or shit soup, but Steam is more agreeable to me than some others.

I suppose I've never had an optical drive actually die due to DRM, but I did have one become inoperable after I installed a game with SecuROM. I had to uninstall the game, root out the traces of SecuROM, do a repair on my Windows installation, and reinstall a bunch of drivers. I won't play anything with SecuROM now.

 

[Martimus]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: chizow
That Steam survey doesn't populate itself based on nothing, you know.

Last I checked there are options in the Steam client for whether you want to opt in on surveys. But don't let that stop the misinformation that runs rampant in just about every Steam thread.

Really, where? There are no options to prevent them from tracking data about your machine as its an integral part of how Steam updates your games and clients. Its also going to be the cornerstone of some future features they've announced, like automatic hardware driver updates or recommended configuration settings. Anyways, the Steam client tracks system data persistently but only sends the data if/when you choose to participate, so again, Steam is more akin to spyware than anything SecuROM related. But like anything, its acceptable because Steam is the "benevolent DRM."

I am not a Steam supporter, but the surveys are actually surveys that you fill out. It isn't Steam checking you computer to see what you have. If you don't want to be part of the survey, then don't fill it out when it pops up. I have had it come up a whole twice.

I prefer Impulse for digital distribution due to not needing to "phone home" every time you use it. (You can set up steam to run in offline mode, but for some reason you can only do this from the online mode; so when your connection goes down you are SOL.)

Steam has a lot of nice features, like organizing your games, along with storing them so that you can download them whenever you feel like it. Nice for going on vacation and using someones laptop to play a game when the weather outside sucks. Or nice for when you format, or replace your HDD.

Steam Store has never worked right for me, but that was a good thing as it kept me from spending money on it for years. It seems to work around 50% of the time now though. (for me at least)

 

[mindcycle]

Headlining the new feature set is the Custom Executable Generation (CEG) technology that compliments the already existing anti-piracy solution offered in Steamworks. A customer friendly approach to anti-piracy, CEG makes unique copies of games for each user allowing them to access the application on multiple machines without install limits and without having to install root kits on their PC.

Wow, woopty do.. Unique copies that we can use on multiple machines.. and that's going to stop piracy how? How about a unique copy without activation based DRM that we can actually sell? I bought FEAR 2 for $30 or whatever it was when it was on sale at gogamer, but there's no way i'd pay full price for any game using steamworks. Even at $30, i'm still renting it for $30 and it seems like a ripoff in a way. What's the going rate to rent a 360 game at blockbuster? $6 or so..

 

[lupi]

Oh look, someone left the door open and the trash blew in.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Wow, woopty do.. Unique copies that we can use on multiple machines.. and that's going to stop piracy how? How about a unique copy without activation based DRM that we can actually sell? I bought FEAR 2 for $30 or whatever it was when it was on sale at gogamer, but there's no way i'd pay full price for any game using steamworks. Even at $30, i'm still renting it for $30 and it seems like a ripoff in a way. What's the going rate to rent a 360 game at blockbuster? $6 or so..

I share your complaints against Steam, but I don't know if the rental comparison is really in your favor.

Suppose you do call your FEAR 2 purchase a rental, assuming that if Steam goes down, you can't play the game ever again. Your cost per day depends on how long Steam holds up. If you bought it today and Steam goes down within 24 hours, that was a pretty expensive rental at $30 per day. If everything's good for a year, FEAR 2 cost you about 8 cents a day. 5 years? A little less than 2 cents.

How long do you get to keep a Blockbuster rental? Three days? Even if you get it for a week, that still costs you about 85 cents a day.

I get your point -- when it comes to a physical purchase with no DRM, you put down $30 and get to keep the game essentially forever; with Steam, you are tied to the life of platform. But your comparison to Blockbuster is actually a point in favor of Steam's value...

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Martimus
I am not a Steam supporter, but the surveys are actually surveys that you fill out. It isn't Steam checking you computer to see what you have. If you don't want to be part of the survey, then don't fill it out when it pops up. I have had it come up a whole twice.

It has an input component about random preferences but the Hardware Survey data is collected automatically. Just think about it, you really think people with 3-5 year old GPUs know the exact driver build they're running? There's nothing particularly dubious about the info in there, its similar to what you'd see in a DXdiag or crash dump but its absolutely more information than the scope of SecuROM.

Originally posted by: lupi
Oh look, someone left the door open and the trash blew in.

Clearly, seeing as you're back. :laugh:

So what's next on your list of ridiculously inappropriate analogies, having to input a CD Key being similar to the Inquisition? Comparing BSOD to the bubonic plague? LMAO.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
I share your complaints against Steam, but I don't know if the rental comparison is really in your favor.

Suppose you do call your FEAR 2 purchase a rental, assuming that if Steam goes down, you can't play the game ever again. Your cost per day depends on how long Steam holds up. If you bought it today and Steam goes down within 24 hours, that was a pretty expensive rental at $30 per day. If everything's good for a year, FEAR 2 cost you about 8 cents a day. 5 years? A little less than 2 cents.

How long do you get to keep a Blockbuster rental? Three days? Even if you get it for a week, that still costs you about 85 cents a day.

I get your point -- when it comes to a physical purchase with no DRM, you put down $30 and get to keep the game essentially forever; with Steam, you are tied to the life of platform. But your comparison to Blockbuster is actually a point in favor of Steam's value...

I was making the point that it's an unsellable game. I buy the game, register it with steam, then have no option to sell it to anyone else because it's now tied to my account. I may have not made that clear, so my bad.

I do get what you are saying here. You basically have access the game forever as long as steam remains up, and that is a plus (kind of). But lets say I finish the game in 3 days, then want to sell it since it's newer title and I could potentially get a 1/3rd or more of the full value. I'm SOL if it's uses steam DRM. So in that respect it's similar to a rental.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
I was making the point that it's an unsellable game. I buy the game, register it with steam, then have no option to sell it to anyone else because it's now tied to my account. I may have not made that clear, so my bad.

I do get what you are saying here. You basically have access the game forever as long as steam remains up, and that is a plus (kind of). But lets say I finish the game in 3 days, then want to sell it since it's newer title and I could potentially get a 1/3rd or more of the full value. I'm SOL if it's uses steam DRM. So in that respect it's similar to a rental.

Gotcha. Yeah, I agree. Personally, I've never had much luck with reselling because I always feel ripped off. But that doesn't make Steam suck less for people who do want to do this. I'm sure the publishers who use Steam are fully aware of this. PC game publishers seem almost as hell-bent on killing the resale scene as they are with piracy.

 

[tyler811]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
Sweet. Now if only Steam was more reliable.

I'm a huge supporter of the concept, but I uninstalled Steam just 5 or 6 hours ago. I couldn't launch UT3 because Steam decided it was time to re-validate my account credentials. When I tried to log in, the network was unavailable and could not access my software. So I installed UT3 from a game disc, used my UT3 key from my Steam purchase, and ripped Steam off my system. This has happened before and it gets old.

Awesome system, awesome concept, but being locked out of software that's installed on my own machine that I paid for = SUCKS.

Myself and another fellow who plays on my teamspeak had the same problem. The only thing in common on our machines was XFire. With XFire installed Steam would not connect to its network. Uninstalled XFire, deleted the registry entries and rebooted. No problems after that even we reinstalled XFire.

 

[lupi]

lol, yeah steam is so great; so great that if it was implemented for all consoles tomorrow the console market would crash.

 

[JasonCoder]

Chiming in with another "steam works for me" vote. Sounds like one guy on here had a perfect shit storm of
(1) Steam client decided to re-evaluate a key
(2) Steam happened to be down
(3) Severe impatience

I'd have been minorly ticked off myself but overall I think the service is great and has come a long way. I'd be surprised if they didn't use highly available and geographically dispersed servers that are almost guaranteed to be up 99.9% That allows a few hours a year for an upgrade. You won't get better than that if you PAY FOR IT from a tier one ISP.