USA Work and Quality of Life Issues

[randomrogue]

You have completely bastardized what I said. My argument is simply that if I want to prioritize work over family, that's my choice. You simply refuse to own up to your own choice of prioritizing family over work. There's nothing wrong with your choice, but you need to own it. If you value the lifestyle afforded by countries with more socialistic tendencies in this area, why are you still here? My guess is that you enjoy keeping more of the money you earn and the opportunity to make more of it by working harder. You have yet to realize that this opportunity stands directly in opposition to mandating all of the things you've championed in this thread. Here in the US, I am happy that I have the right to choose to put my career ahead of family or vice versa. I can also choose to change that prioritization with time as I age, have children, or whatever other factors that I hold to be important in making that decision.

I left the USA. So I'm directly comparing my standard of living in one country vs the other. It's much higher here in Europe. I have outlined why above. No amount of money can buy you happiness, more time off, paternity leave, etc if you have a job that needs you in the USA.

 

[Craig234]

I made a couple hundred grand a year in the USA.

1. I could not take more than 2 weeks vacation
2. I could not take paternity leave

In my opinion, that's pretty unusual. Usually those perks go along with high income.

Note, I agree with your points generally about the advantages of Europe.

 

[pauldun170]

I made a couple hundred grand a year in the USA.

1. I could not take more than 2 weeks vacation
2. I could not take paternity leave

What industry\region?
What type of work?

 

[randomrogue]

What industry\region?
What type of work?

California. I was in upper management. I was the boss of a division so if I was off that entire division either needed to shut down or a boss from another division needed to transfer in and cover for me at the expense of his own division. That meant he needed to stay at a hotel and live in another city for as long as I was off. That other person would need to do two full time jobs and as a boss that's hard enough when it's your own.

It just wasn't feasible. Not when money is the driving force. They would only shut down for a few days around Christmas and New Years, thus the 2 week vacation then.

 

[Craig234]

California. I was in upper management. I was the boss of a division so if I was off that entire division either needed to shut down or a boss from another division needed to transfer in and cover for me at the expense of his own division. That meant he needed to stay at a hotel and live in another city for as long as I was off. That other person would need to do two full time jobs and as a boss that's hard enough when it's your own.

It just wasn't feasible. Not when money is the driving force. They would only shut down for a few days around Christmas and New Years, thus the 2 week vacation then.

I don't mean any offense, but the normal approach is to have an assistant for that.

 

[pauldun170]

I don't mean any offense, but the normal approach is to have an assistant for that.

Direct report to handle day to day stuff, handle issues and reach out in case of emergencies.

I wouldn't want to work for an organization that was crippled if someone was out for a few weeks.

If big dog is out for a few weeks or even a month or two because of "whatever"

Direct report A assigned "projects 1-3"
Direct report B assigned "projects 4-6"
Assign people throughout the hierarchy for whatever special topics are going on.

If you can't count on your directs....YOU are the problem.
If you can't get support from your management, then you need to job hunt.

 

[randomrogue]

Ultimately I quit but even my job before that they struggled if I was out. If you're good at a job it is not easy to replace you. Yes you can have someone there to take messages and relay your orders but when it comes to actual hands on management and results based work it's tough to justify two of someone at these kinds of salaries, with these kinds of responsibilities, and with these kinds of skill sets. When I was sick I would come into the office, set things in motion, check my email, check my phone calls, and then go home. You are there because of your relationships with your customers, your employees, and your skill sets and these are not transferable to someone else. This is compounded when you work for a private company. In Europe a position like mine would be fine since they would shut down the whole company over the summer as well as the winter holidays so you would get your 6-8 weeks of vacation. They don't do that in the USA since nobody else does it and "you can't just shut down while your competition is out there working".

It's a difference in attitude. Living to Work or working to live.

 

[pauldun170]

Ultimately I quit but even my job before that they struggled if I was out. If you're good at a job it is not easy to replace you. Yes you can have someone there to take messages and relay your orders but when it comes to actual hands on management and results based work it's tough to justify two of someone at these kinds of salaries, with these kinds of responsibilities, and with these kinds of skill sets. When I was sick I would come into the office, set things in motion, check my email, check my phone calls, and then go home. You are there because of your relationships with your customers, your employees, and your skill sets and these are not transferable to someone else. This is compounded when you work for a private company. In Europe a position like mine would be fine since they would shut down the whole company over the summer as well as the winter holidays so you would get your 6-8 weeks of vacation. They don't do that in the USA since nobody else does it and "you can't just shut down while your competition is out there working".

It's a difference in attitude. Living to Work or working to live.

What industry? What size company?

Sounds like plain and simple mediocre corporate culture.
While not uncommon, your experiences are not the norm.
If I had a division head whose absence would cause havoc...I'd rethink the hierarchy and re-org.
That kind of risk is unacceptable.

 

[CycloWizard]

I left the USA. So I'm directly comparing my standard of living in one country vs the other. It's much higher here in Europe. I have outlined why above. No amount of money can buy you happiness, more time off, paternity leave, etc if you have a job that needs you in the USA.

It's a pity. If you had spent one day learning how to negotiate, you could have had all of those things and stayed in the US. It's one of the most important skills you can learn but also one of the most neglected.

 

[shadow9d9]

I have my own business and take off as much as I want... but I am extremely fortunate...

Americans have chosen to become jealous and try to strip away benefits that they don't have from their fellow americans rather than fight for more people to have them. Jobs in america, especially in the last 10 years, have changed... less people working more hours, with fear of losing their jobs and being replaced by the millions of unemployed. Companies have all the power. People, as shown by this thread, have an illusion that they have bargaining power. A handful of the elite might, but the rest don't.

A workforce with no rest, little benefits(healthcare), little job security, and poor retirement benefits, is a poor and inefficient workforce. This is the new America.

 

[shadow9d9]

It's a pity. If you had spent one day learning how to negotiate, you could have had all of those things and stayed in the US. It's one of the most important skills you can learn but also one of the most neglected.

This is an illusion. Only a handful of americans are valuable enough that they could pull this off. The reality is that the american workforce has been steadily losing benefits for the past 20 years. A handful of people being able to get around this doesn't change the fact that it is reality for a supermajority of americans.

 

[CycloWizard]

This is an illusion. Only a handful of americans are valuable enough that they could pull this off. The reality is that the american workforce has been steadily losing benefits for the past 20 years. A handful of people being able to get around this doesn't change the fact that it is reality for a supermajority of americans.

Then quit posting on Anandtech forums and become more valuable. I have no sympathy for lazy individuals who complain about how overworked and underpaid they are. If you get your shit done, a good manager is not going to care precisely when you punch the clock.

 

[shadow9d9]

Then quit posting on Anandtech forums and become more valuable. I have no sympathy for lazy individuals who complain about how overworked and underpaid they are. If you get your shit done, a good manager is not going to care precisely when you punch the clock.

Did you even read my posts? The first sentence stated that I own my own business and could take off any day/week/month that I want..and regularly do so... You immediately lashed out with anger and a desire to feel superior to your fellow countryman. You didn't even bother to read the few sentences that I wrote in the post directly above the one you responded to and immediately jumped to blame me for not having vacation...You are exactly the problem.

You just validated the rest of my argument though, so thanks for that. A manager would not give 6 weeks vacation like they have in Europe(I would argue that a manager wouldn't have this power anyhow)... The percentage of people in the US valuable enough to even attempt to negotiate)(and I still know of no one with that kind of vacation time aside from me, which is because I have my own business) is miniscule... there are so many unemployed that you will be replaced in a second...

Americans have been losing healthcare, good pension benefits,vacation time, maternity leave, etc for decades now... and you are simply rationalizing it away.. because a handful of people might get it, it is ok for the majority of 300 million to go without it...

And out of curiosity, how many weeks vacation do you get? How many hours a week do you work? In many parts of europe you get 6 weeks vacation, insane maternity leave, and 36 hour works weeks.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Then quit posting on Anandtech forums and become more valuable. I have no sympathy for lazy individuals who complain about how overworked and underpaid they are. If you get your shit done, a good manager is not going to care precisely when you punch the clock.

I know this is usually a P&N retort, but you come off as an elitist, self-absorbed prick. I am a well paid software engineer who is allowed to manage my own time as you do, but I have no illusion that a majority of Americans enjoy the same benefits. The nature of my profession usually allows me to manage my own time as long as I adhere to a delivery time table. You think someone who works at a factory or a service job is able to do that? You need to pull your head out of your boss's rear end and realize there is a world outside of it.

 

[Murloc]

although his niceness is questionable, Mxylplyx has a point.

Someone with no skills/intelligence/education who works in a factory and does a repetitive job, has no way to "not be lazy" and the whole line depends on him punching the clock at precise times. The only thing protecting this person from being overworked and underpaid is the law. I thought this sentence couldn't be used seriously but here it is: check your privilege.

 

[pauldun170]

although his niceness is questionable, Mxylplyx has a point.

Someone with no skills/intelligence/education who works in a factory and does a repetitive job, has no way to "not be lazy" and the whole line depends on him punching the clock at precise times. The only thing protecting this person from being overworked and underpaid is the law. I thought this sentence couldn't be used seriously but here it is: check your privilege.

That isn't the point of this discussion topic.
the point of the discussion topic is vacation time, maternity leave and health benefits.

OP's point of reference is of upper management and she is directly comparing USA and Europe based on Vacation\Maternity\Health benefits.

CycloWizard appears to be questioning the work ethic of the OP in the context of her statements in this thread.

It does look like it has gotten a wee bit personal in this thread.

 

[Craig234]

That isn't the point of this discussion topic.
the point of the discussion topic is vacation time, maternity leave and health benefits.

OP's point of reference is of upper management and she is directly comparing USA and Europe based on Vacation\Maternity\Health benefits.

CycloWizard appears to be questioning the work ethic of the OP in the context of her statements in this thread.

It does look like it has gotten a wee bit personal in this thread.

Sorry, I think the point about those benefits for workers is important and relevant.

 

[pauldun170]

Sorry, I think the point about those benefits for workers is important and relevant.

no skills/intelligence/education who works in a factory and does a repetitive job

Ok...
Should they be entitled to vacation\maternity\Health benefits comparable to those in Europe by law?

Should a factory worker\McDonalds counter worker be entitled to 4-8 weeks paid vacation, extensive maternity benefits and health care as per OP?

 

[Craig234]

Ok...
Should they be entitled to vacation\maternity\Health benefits comparable to those in Europe by law?

Should a factory worker\McDonalds counter worker be entitled to 4-8 weeks paid vacation, extensive maternity benefits and health care as per OP?

In my opinion, as a broad principle, they should get more.

At the turn of the century in 1900, at the height of the power balance belonging to the owners, the average wage in the US was $10,000 adjusted for inflation.

That's well below today's minimum wage.

We could have continued that way - 'wage slaves' - with a low standard of living for the people while a few tycoons had embarrassingly massive fortunes.

We decided to shift that balance of power, and the middle class was born, pretty much.

I think it's worthwhile to balance things more towards where Europe is than keep the current balance - which has been sliding heavily towards the wealthy for decades.

 

[Murloc]

Should a factory worker\McDonalds counter worker be entitled to 4-8 weeks paid vacation, extensive maternity benefits and health care as per OP?

Yes, at least 4 weeks of vacation, a maternity leave of sufficient length, and a minimum health care insurance package, but not through the employer.
If they pay taxes, are legally residing and their health problems are not self-inflicted through drugs.

Are you arguing that some kids need/deserve less time with their parents because they are working-class? Or that factory workers have an easy and totally not alienating job that fills them with motivation and thus don't need vacations?

 

[pauldun170]

"Won't you think of the children"

I believe that it is in our societies best interest to provide tax payer funded unniversal coverage combined with reform\regulation of our Medical school system (combined with federal subsidies for med school), hence "single payer" for all. I have been a big supporter of single payer and was EXTREMELY disappointed how our laws turned out.

I believe that in US, that "vacation" should continue to be treated as compensation and to remain unregulated. Vacation benefits should be market driven.

I believe that current US law (Family and Leave Act) is sufficient. Based on current birth rates in the US and consumer spending habits, I believe that if you make the personal decision to start a family, it is up to you to make the additional choices required to support that decision.

The fact is that our work culture here, while distasteful to some other countries (who have taken an active role in defining the employee\employer relationship) has allowed us to be very competitive and innovative.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Yes, at least 4 weeks of vacation, a maternity leave of sufficient length, and a minimum health care insurance package, but not through the employer.
If they pay taxes, are legally residing and their health problems are not self-inflicted through drugs.

Are you arguing that some kids need/deserve less time with their parents because they are working-class? Or that factory workers have an easy and totally not alienating job that fills them with motivation and thus don't need vacations?

I think he has made quite clear that the person who works at McDonalds is less and therefore deserves less, and their laziness should be rewarded accordingly. They should have had parents to put them through college like I did.

 

[Craig234]

I believe that it is in our societies best interest to provide tax payer funded unniversal coverage combined with reform\regulation of our Medical school system (combined with federal subsidies for med school), hence "single payer" for all. I have been a big supporter of single payer and was EXTREMELY disappointed how our laws turned out.

I believe that in US, that "vacation" should continue to be treated as compensation and to remain unregulated. Vacation benefits should be market driven.

I believe that current US law (Family and Leave Act) is sufficient. Based on current birth rates in the US and consumer spending habits, I believe that if you make the personal decision to start a family, it is up to you to make the additional choices required to support that decision.

The fact is that our work culture here, while distasteful to some other countries (who have taken an active role in defining the employee\employer relationship) has allowed us to be very competitive and innovative.

It's a propagandistic label to call low pay, low benefit, anti-worker policies 'work culture'.

Admittedly there are some economic benefits, sometimes - just as slavery had economic benefits, just as the gilded age culture of poverty had some benefits.

But IMO the benefits are larger from a strong middle class.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I believe that in US, that "vacation" should continue to be treated as compensation and to remain unregulated. Vacation benefits should be market driven.

The problem with this is that we are now having to compete with a worldwide job market, so we are currently in a race to the bottom. With the amount of power and coercion that corporations are able to exert there is no such thing as a fair job market. They control all the wealth and all the resources. At any level less then upper management or highly skilled technical jobs there is no real compensation negotiation anymore, you take what they offer or you don't work. And corporations are working at removing the competition between highly skilled workers though making it possible to use global workforce. Soon even McDonald's workers are going to be in direct competition with people willing to work for literally subsistence wages because it is better then starving to death.

The compelling reasons for instituting a minimum wage are the same ones we should be looking at for why we need minimum compensation packages.

 

[Murloc]

The fact is that our work culture here, while distasteful to some other countries (who have taken an active role in defining the employee\employer relationship) has allowed us to be very competitive and innovative.

yeah no one is going to argue with that, it certainly has its merits and stems from a mentality that also led to economic prosperity.

From what I learned in school and on the internet I just get the impression that the american model changed over time though, and it got worse for the workers thanks to stuff like reaganomics. The american success happened before him though, so my belief is that there is a middle ground where people have more rights than now, but at the same time the autentic values of the US are retained.
Stuff like universal healthcare and stopping excessive fiscal privileges for the rich to pay for it wouldn't change the work culture at all imho.

Regulating firings and hirings certainly would, and I agree completely on this point, pseudosocialist countries like France or Italy are and have been stifling their economy through overprotection from firings and by giving too much power to unions.
Having sectorial minimum wages is necessary though imho, there's too much abuse that can happen there.

The question of the holidays is an unsanable cultural difference, here everything really grinds to a halt during high season and it's entrenched in the mentality to go on a vacation. I understand that where you live life doesn't have that yearly cycle attached to it and business does not stop for everyone so it doesn't make as much sense to send everybody on vacation for the full month either. It's also proven that stressed people work less well though...

I believe that current US law (Family and Leave Act) is sufficient. Based on current birth rates in the US and consumer spending habits, I believe that if you make the personal decision to start a family, it is up to you to make the additional choices required to support that decision.

It doesn't need more action because your birth rates are high enough. I forgot about your mexicans.
In Europe we don't have the same possibility (importation of quasi-europeans from fertile poor countries, because they do not exist or have even lower birth rates themselves) so extending family rights and spending is a necessity.